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[BMBiology]

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The ACPE can make their standards harder but at this point, it may be too late. Another way is to make the board exam difficult. In California, its board exam is still harder than other states. Although in the past, it used to be a written exam that is only offered twice a year. Its 50% passage rate made it difficult but Cali changed its exam to make it easier because the demand for pharmacists was greater than the supply.

 

[Its Z]

The ACPE can make their standards harder but at this point, it may be too late. Another way is to make the board exam difficult. In California, its board exam is still harder than other states. Although in the past, it used to be a written exam that is only offered twice a year. Its 50% passage rate made it difficult but Cali changed its exam to make it easier because the demand for pharmacists was greater than the supply.

I took that essay exam in 1995. In state passing rate was around 75 -90% of course we only had 3 schools then. Out of state passing rate was 50%.

 

[Passion4Sci]

Now, why isn't it that way for NAPLEX?

 

[BMBiology]

The out of state passage on the CPJE (California's version) is still pretty low: http://www.pharmacy.ca.gov/publications/0409_0909_stats.pdf

But back then, it is given only twice a year so if you failed, you have to wait for 6 mths to retake it.

 

[Its Z]

Now, why isn't it that way for NAPLEX?

Because it's a minimum competency test.

Let me write the test. I can guaranty a 50% passing rate. And NAPLEX should mandate a once per year only testing for licensees.

Say what you will about the old CA pharmacy education (USC, UOP, & UCSF) but the clinical modules were far more advanced than the rest of the nation. Many flunkies of the exam said that CA schools prepared students for the exam better. But quite the contrary. CA board wrote the exam based on CA RX school curriculum and expectations.

 

[MountainPharmD]

Because it's a minimum competency test.

Let me write the test. I can guaranty a 50% passing rate. And NAPLEX should mandate a once per year only testing for licensees.

Say what you will about the old CA pharmacy education (USC, UOP, & UCSF) but the clinical modules were far more advanced than the rest of the nation. Many flunkies of the exam said that CA schools prepared students for the exam better. But quite the contrary. CA board wrote the exam based on CA RX school curriculum and expectations.

Woo Hooo!!! A screen name change!!! It has been awhile.....

 

[Its Z]

Woo Hooo!!! A screen name change!!! It has been awhile.....

Stalker or a groupie...which is it?

 

[litetigre]

Making board or naplex exam harder does not address the real issue. School already opened, people already graduated. As previous poster said, Cali board writes questions catering to in state school. So if you make board exam harder and more schools open in cali, pharmacy job still dooms.

 

[group_theory]

Is any one else bothered by the fact that this "university" currently doesn't offer any academic degrees (associates, bachelors, masters, or doctorates)? And it's not accredited by a regional accrediting agency!!! Regional accrediation is consider the gold standard for postsecondary education. For California schools, it would be the Western Association of Schools and Colleges, Accrediting Commission for Schools.

(To be fair, it's accredited by the Accrediting Council for Independent Colleges and Schools ACICS, which is recognized by the US Dept of Education and list ACICS as "the accreditation of private postsecondary institutions offering certificates or diplomas, and postsecondary institutions offering associate, bachelor's, or master's degrees in programs designed to educate students for professional, technical, or occupational careers, including those that offer those programs via distance education."
http://ed.gov/admins/finaid/accred/accreditation_pg7.html

Current program offerings
Clinical Research Associates
Research Medical Assistant
Pharmacy Technology
Bachelor of Science in Nursing (first class Summer/Fall 2010)

Should a PharmD program really be part of this group?

 

[rxlea]

Is any one else bothered by the fact that this "university" currently doesn't offer any academic degrees (associates, bachelors, masters, or doctorates)? And it's not accredited by a regional accrediting agency!!! Regional accrediation is consider the gold standard for postsecondary education. For California schools, it would be the Western Association of Schools and Colleges, Accrediting Commission for Schools.

(To be fair, it's accredited by the Accrediting Council for Independent Colleges and Schools ACICS, which is recognized by the US Dept of Education and list ACICS as "the accreditation of private postsecondary institutions offering certificates or diplomas, and postsecondary institutions offering associate, bachelor's, or master's degrees in programs designed to educate students for professional, technical, or occupational careers, including those that offer those programs via distance education."
http://ed.gov/admins/finaid/accred/accreditation_pg7.html

Current program offerings
Clinical Research Associates
Research Medical Assistant
Pharmacy Technology
Bachelor of Science in Nursing (first class Summer/Fall 2010)

Should a PharmD program really be part of this group?

eh...looks more like a vocational type school

 

[diastole]

I was gonna say that I should just go back and finish my Ph.D in Psychology but there aren't any jobs for clinical psychologists, either. LOL.

There just aren't any jobs for anything period (Beyond the usual "move to the boondocks" etc).

Your post just depressed me and caused me to ponder what jobs were expanding. Then it hit me: pharmacy faculty. Dr. Diastole coming to a not yet built pharmacy school near you!

 

[KARM12]

Woo Hooo!!! A screen name change!!! It has been awhile.....

Please! He didn't even try this time.

 

[Praziquantel86]

Then, how do we get the accrediting body to limit the number of schools opening?

Dr. Koda-Kimble (of textbook fame) wrote a pretty nasty editorial about this in Pharmacotherapy last year.

Basically, she said that the profession was being harmed by the ACPE's lax standards, and that it might be time for a new accrediting body to take the reigns.

It's pretty sad, really. I don't know what the future is going to hold for pharmacists if this keeps up. The AMA releases a document arguing that the educational background of pharmacists has to be questioned, and up until the past few weeks, I thought it was a senseless pissing contest. But now when I see schools like this one opening up, schools opening up that are taking students who have failed out of other existing programs, and schools that graduate bible-thumping bigots, I don't think I can disagree with them anymore.

Something has to be done, but I don't know if there is anything that realistically can be done. It's a depressing world out there, folks.

 

[Filler]

I took a look at the school's website, only to find a page dedicated to testimonials..

jesus christ..

 

[PumpkinSmasher]

Something has to be done, but I don't know if there is anything that realistically can be done. It's a depressing world out there, folks.

Bigots are fine as long as they are not of the bible thumping persuasion?

 

[Jetninjin]

you seem to forget, physicians can do so many procedures, operate cash only if they want. when given an option people choose a physician over a midlevel.

medicine has been around 2000 yrs and it isnt going anywhere anytime soon.

pharmacy is where it is today through politics. it is going to collapse just like the nurse anesthetists. their salaries are inflated right now but that will come crashing down hard. physicians will survive in the long run plain and simple.

A few points: 1) You point out that the average UK pharmacist salary is only about $60k, but you neglect to mention that the average physician salary over there is about $100k. Nurses also make about half what they do here. It's not just pharmacists.

2) Not everyone chooses an MD over an NP or PA. This is particularly true of women who deliberately choose nurse midwives over OB/GYNs. My PCP is an NP, and much to the chagrin of my best friend from college who is a gastroenterologist, my gastro is a PA lol.

3) I wouldn't bet on a successful exodus of MDs going cash-only. If enough docs did that, how long do you think it would take before state boards (and perhaps the Feds) would link licensure to participation in Medicaid/care? This is what happens in other countries to prevent that brain drain into private insurance or cash-only -- it would happen here too in a heartbeat if enough docs wanted to get cutesy about it.

4) I would argue that pharmacy has gotten where it is DESPITE politics, not because of them. Our lobbying organizations are piss-poor, especially compared to such well-oiled orgs like the ANA.

5) CRNA salaries coming crashing down sounds like wishful thinking on the anesthesiology forum lol.

 

[Jetninjin]

The AMA releases a document arguing that the educational background of pharmacists has to be questioned, and up until the past few weeks, I thought it was a senseless pissing contest.

That's because it IS a senseless pissing contest. The AMA is lashing out at basically every allied health field in existence. The scope of practice series doesn't just hate on pharmacists, it hates on everyone ... here is the complete list:

audiologists
dentists
naturopaths
nurse anesthetists
nurse practitioners
optometrists
pharmacists
physical therapists
podiatrists
psychologists

 

[thedrunkenpharm]

Don't know if it's been posted yet but UNC-Chapel Hill has aquired another sattelite campus at UNC-Asheville. Student enrollment in the Pharm.D program will increase by 40 some students.

 

[Praziquantel86]

Bigots are fine as long as they are not of the bible thumping persuasion?

No, I just like using adjectives 🙂.

 

[samurai361]

you seem to forget, physicians can do so many procedures, operate cash only if they want. when given an option people choose a physician over a midlevel.

medicine has been around 2000 yrs and it isnt going anywhere anytime soon.

pharmacy is where it is today through politics. it is going to collapse just like the nurse anesthetists. their salaries are inflated right now but that will come crashing down hard. physicians will survive in the long run plain and simple.

CRNA salaries aren't going anywhere. My father works as an ER physician and CRNAs are definitely way too in need, by what he tells me. There aren't enough anesthesiologists, and their salary requirements are sky high, so if a CRNA can do what the anesthesiologist can, they sure are employed. In many rural places there isn't even an anesthesiologist on duty to supervise. Just the other day he told me a story of an 11 yr old patient who needed an appendectomy (night shift) and the CRNA was the only one there to administer the anesthesia and this new PA calls the anesthesiologist from an hour away to insist the anesthesiologist come in and do it (the PA wasn't familiar with how things worked around there) and boy did the anesthesiologist get pissed. The anesthesiologist complained to the hospital, "PA or me?" style, and the PA was fired the next day.

 

[Praziquantel86]

CRNA salaries aren't going anywhere. My father works as an ER physician and CRNAs are definitely way too in need, by what he tells me. There aren't enough anesthesiologists, and their salary requirements are sky high, so if a CRNA can do what the anesthesiologist can, they sure are employed. In many rural places there isn't even an anesthesiologist on duty to supervise. Just the other day he told me a story of an 11 yr old patient who needed an appendectomy and the CRNA was the only one there to administer the anesthesia and this new PA calls the anesthiologist from an hour away to insist the anesthesiologist come in and do it (the PA wasn't familiar with how things worked around there) and boy did the anesthesiologist get pissed. He complained to the hospital, "PA or me?" style, and the PA was fired the next day.

Eh, CRNA salaries really aren't that low an an hourly basis compared to anesthesiologists. A CRNA might pull in $180,000 per year, but that's doing 35 hours a week of shift work and no call time. An anesthesiologist might get $350,000, but that's a 60 hour week with call. The numbers might be a little off, but you get the point.

I also might be mistaken on this (correct me if I'm wrong) but unless a state has opted out of the physician supervision requirement for a CRNA (several have), an anesthesiologist has to be physically present in the OR in order to legally bill Medicare for the procedures.

I sure as hell wouldn't want a CRNA giving me anesthesia without supervision. After all the ridiculous medication orders and lack of knowledge I've seen out of NPs (not all of them, just a decent amount), I wouldn't feel comfortable trusting my life to one of them. Add to that and the recent push for the DNP degree as a physician equivalent and the regulation of CRNAs by nursing (instead of medical) boards, and I think you have a recipe for disaster.

 

[Passion4Sci]

Let's not neglect the fact that while a Pharmacist in the UK may very well make $60,000/year, his education sure as hell didn't cost $185k.

 

[koercive]

Jobs/careers used to fall in pharm.d. graduates' laps. Now, it takes more effort/work/networking to get to where you want. With all these schools opening up, it has really motivated me more to go the extra mile.

 

[type b pharmD]

Jobs/careers used to fall in pharm.d. graduates' laps. Now, it takes more effort/work/networking to get to where you want. With all these schools opening up, it has really motivated me more to go the extra mile.

same here. the jobs will still be there, it's just that the best candidates will get them. the only downside to the competition will be seeing classmates who are decent people not get jobs because they didnt assign enough importance to working while in school. (ie focused on grades)

 

[PharmaTope]

A few points: 1) You point out that the average UK pharmacist salary is only about $60k, but you neglect to mention that the average physician salary over there is about $100k. Nurses also make about half what they do here. It's not just pharmacists.

2) Not everyone chooses an MD over an NP or PA. This is particularly true of women who deliberately choose nurse midwives over OB/GYNs. My PCP is an NP, and much to the chagrin of my best friend from college who is a gastroenterologist, my gastro is a PA lol.

3) I wouldn't bet on a successful exodus of MDs going cash-only. If enough docs did that, how long do you think it would take before state boards (and perhaps the Feds) would link licensure to participation in Medicaid/care? This is what happens in other countries to prevent that brain drain into private insurance or cash-only -- it would happen here too in a heartbeat if enough docs wanted to get cutesy about it.

4) I would argue that pharmacy has gotten where it is DESPITE politics, not because of them. Our lobbying organizations are piss-poor, especially compared to such well-oiled orgs like the ANA.

5) CRNA salaries coming crashing down sounds like wishful thinking on the anesthesiology forum lol.

MBS salaries in england are not 100k. GPs there have better lifestyles than the ones here. they earn around 100,000-200,000 pounds a year. the specialist do not make as much money out there.

 

[Pharmacy Kid]

So, what do we do about the diploma mills?

Can't you make the NAPLEX much harder and unaccredit schools that don't pass a certain % of students?

Edit: forgot to read the 2nd page of the thread

 

[desklamp]

The out of state passage on the CPJE (California's version) is still pretty low: http://www.pharmacy.ca.gov/publications/0409_0909_stats.pdf

But back then, it is given only twice a year so if you failed, you have to wait for 6 mths to retake it.

Does anyone know the reason why the CPJE is so hard for out-of-state people? I had originally planned to somehow come back to cali after pharm school to get registered but now i'm scared 🙁.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

same here. the jobs will still be there, it's just that the best candidates will get them. the only downside to the competition will be seeing classmates who are decent people not get jobs because they didnt assign enough importance to working while in school. (ie focused on grades)

Actually, you will see the kids with the best networking skills get the jobs and the kids with the best grades who "tried so hard" get passed by.

 

[Its Z]

Actually, you will see the kids with the best networking skills get the jobs and the kids with the best grades who "tried so hard" get passed by.

yup. mostly true. ive had 9 jobs. 6 of those were due to who i knew.

 

[Its Z]

and i say mostly true because who you know can also prevent you from getting a job as ive seen many resumes of people who burnt bridges show up on my pile. its always amusing. then again there are people and companies who would laugh at my resume also..

 

[Silvermist]

and i say mostly true because who you know can also prevent you from getting a job as ive seen many resumes of people who burnt bridges show up on my pile. its always amusing. then again there are people and companies who would laugh at my resume also..

People who have burned bridges with you? Or just in general have a bad reputation and you've heard about it thru the grapevine? Pardon my curiosity =)

 

[Its Z]

People who have burned bridges with you? Or just in general have a bad reputation and you've heard about it thru the grapevine? Pardon my curiosity =)

both