Lopsided OMFS Programs

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senpai

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I am looking for some advice from residents or practicing surgeons...I know as a generalization we in the OMFS community generally view "good" programs as ones that will give you both the best and most well-rounded/full-scope training. We generally label many programs as being too "bread-and-butter" (wisdom teeth/implants) and obviousely programs that have a reputation of more OR time, etc. are more sought after. My question is if a program can be too lopsided the other way, with too much emphasis doing big OR cases, etc???
Of course one answer is that it all depends on what you want to do when you are done. Reality, however, is that most of us will be spending a significant amount of time in private practice (based on statistics) with a certain number of OR days at the hospital, taking call at a trauma center, doing some bigger stuff on the side, etc.
For someone with those types of goals, is too little of dentoalveolar experience a concern???
I'm talking specifically about programs like Oregon, etc. that in the most recent years residents have recieved very little training in dentoalveolar surgery. I've heard similar things for Jax as well, but haven't externed there yet to see for myself nor heard from a good source ??? lol
 
I am not a resident, but i'll bite.
As I was deciding which interviews I wanted to go to I had to be real honest with myself about what I wanted for my future. Believe it or not it is hard to come to terms with the fact that you aren't going to be doing many "sexy surgeries" in your career.
I externed at OHSU and I could not imagine a more amazing place when I did. It was my number 1 program from my externship on. Then I needed to be really honest with myself and I didn't even go to the interview because of the issues you mentioned.
Many will say that if you can do X amazing surgery then you surely can do X simple surgery. I don't agree with this at all. This is what people say who are deficient in some training so they can justify it.
In the end it really does come down to what you want. I decided to rank places that had core OMS procedures with an emphasis in trauma and orthognathics (because this is what I want to do).
If you aspire to one day be a program director, OHSU would hands down be the spot to train.
 
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If you don't mind, could you name some of the programs that meet this description?

Thanks.
-Cyrus

I can only comment on the places I interviewed at. But the ones that fit that description best would be: San Antonio, Vanderbilt, Emory, Louisville, Kentucky, Emory, UCSF, Parkland, and Baylor in no particular order.
 
I can only comment on the places I interviewed at. But the ones that fit that description best would be: San Antonio, Vanderbilt, Emory, Louisville, Kentucky, Emory, UCSF, Parkland, and Baylor in no particular order.

I thought Alabama was great in that aspect as well. I would replace the 2nd Emory with Alabama. Emory's so nice it's on there twice. 🙂 Or maybe one was for the 6-year track and the other was the 4-year track.

I had a close look at Oregon: Awesome program. From what I gathered, the implants at the dental school in recent years were mostly dealt to the perio department because the restorative faculty that approves implant cases favored periodontists. However, I hear they are getting a new restorative faculty member who will be in charge of implant cases and seems more open to sharing the cases evenly. Dr. Myall and Dr. Assael are on it. So I suspect an increase in numbers from the Oregon OMS residents in the near future. The dentoalveolar experience is dwarfed by their strengths in the unfiltered trauma (no ENT/PRS) experience at Emmanuel Hospital, Didactics with Assael, Bell, Dierks, Potter, H&N cancer (their grads are getting hospital privileges for neck dissections without fellowships because of the case loads and training they are getting), state of the art surgery with the robot and computer aided tx planning for orthognathics and reconstructive sx, and so much more. In the end, Oregon produces B.A. surgeons. This kind of training is amazing.

Jax seemed like another great program with a lot of focus on expanded scope. Implants and exodontia are again not their main focus so it seems dwarfed by their strengths which are similar to Oregon's: Unfiltered trauma, H&N Cancer, etc.

There is definitely a spectrum with the some programs focusing on the bread and butter and others focusing on the expanded scope. I think both are important. I am glad there are so many different programs out there. It affords us more options for our training. Obviously not every applicant wants the same career, so it is good to have both sides of the spectrum.

In order to pick which programs I wanted to apply, interview and rank, I had to first figure out what I wanted at the end of my career. This took me a long time and I am still adjusting my plans as I go along. This may not matter 20 years from now but right now it seems important to me. I think the safest bet is to get a little bit of everything and that way you can see what you like and don't like through experience and then pick what you want to do with your career near the end of your residency. I don't think we have to figure it all out before we start. (it probably helps though).
 
My question is if a program can be too lopsided the other way, with too much emphasis doing big OR cases, etc???

My opinion: If you never get comfortable with ambulatory anesthesia during residency, you never will in practice. Also, being great at trauma has nothing to do with orthognathics and vice versa. You need both. Finally, I could learn Head and Neck surgery in a fellowship but I can't learn dentoalveolar surgery in one.

PS "If you can do a neck dissection, you can take out #17." I beg to differ.
 
I apologize Phidipides. Didn't realize I put Emory there twice. Alabama most definitely deserves a spot on that list.

One question though Phidipides; how did you know I interviewed at UAB... stalker.
 
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My opinion: If you never get comfortable with ambulatory anesthesia during residency, you never will in practice. Also, being great at trauma has nothing to do with orthognathics and vice versa. You need both. Finally, I could learn Head and Neck surgery in a fellowship but I can't learn dentoalveolar surgery in one.

PS "If you can do a neck dissection, you can take out #17." I beg to differ.

I absolutely agree with this sentiment. One of the things that turned me off most about a program when I was on the interview trail was hearing residents say things like that. One of the favorites was "If you can fix a mandible fracture you can do an implant, just stick the screw in the hole."
 
My opinion: If you never get comfortable with ambulatory anesthesia during residency, you never will in practice.

This is my biggest concern about my training.

And everyone should try for Louisville. Good residents and well rounded. Your wife just has to like Louisville....
 
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When I made my rank list I thought about what an oral surgeon offers the dental community over other providers.

1) Anesthetic care
2) Orthognathic
3) Trauma
4) Fast and efficient exodontia
5) Pathology

Implants are not on my list because there are many providers out there who do them. I will do them but it wasn't a deal breaker come rank time. I'm someone who believes you CAN hone your skills outside of residency as long as you get a foundation there. I can't learn the above in private practice and expect to make it.

I wanted trauma and Orthognathic because if there is ANY hope of me doing them in private practice, I need to be fast and good.

Pathology takes time to learn and I feel I can offer a good service to patients with this.

Anesthesia. One of the few things we do that can hurt people. This is obvious.

I still believe that if you graduate from almost any OMS program in the country you'll be plenty good for private practice procedures. Many practicing OMS did not learn implants in residency. They are doing fine. What ELSE can you offer the community? I hear a bunch of my classmates have done far more OS private practice stuff in their first few months than they ever could have imagined. These same students who couldn't get a #9 out without shaking. They're placing implants, taking out impactions, small biopsies, etc. The debt and tight job market and tight patient dollars means GPs are doing more in house. You need to be able to offer them things they can't do well.
 
Which programs are the more typical "bread and butter" programs, big on dentoalveolar sx, although with some exposure to other fields? Are they typically single degree programs?

I'm concerned with becoming a great PP oral surgeon, like senpai says: "Reality, however, is that most of us will be spending a significant amount of time in private practice (based on statistics) with a certain number of OR days at the hospital, taking call at a trauma center, doing some bigger stuff on the side, etc."
 
Which programs are the more typical "bread and butter" programs, big on dentoalveolar sx, although with some exposure to other fields? Are they typically single degree programs?"


Not Necessarily. I would not assume that programs that offer the MD have larger scopes of practice because of the med school or assume that 4-year programs better prepare you for private practice with more bread and butter procedures. There are many 4-year programs that have very large scopes (i.e. Carle, Knoxville, Emory, Fresno) and there are many 4-year programs that seem to focus on the bread and butter. The same goes for 6-year programs (See list by Michael Scarn) Some are known to be heavy in teeth and titanium like Baylor or UCLA and others are known to be heavy in big OR cases like OHSU and Jax. But just because they are known for that does not mean that they only do that.

To answer your first question, I would list (in no order) Mayo, UCLA, Baylor, Gainesville. They seem to be well known for this part of their training. There are more that give a strong training in the core OMS procedures that I think you are looking for but don't necessarily have it as thier main focus. In my opinion, some of (definitely not all of) the 6-year programs worth looking into would be (again in no order) UNC, Alabama, Kentucky, LSU-New Orleans, and San Antonio. The Programs at Vandy, Emory, Gainesville have both tracks. As far as 4-year programs go, I honestly do not know as well as the 6-year progrmas but from what I hear Carle, Ohio State, Indiana, Oklahoma, and Christiana.
 
My opinion: If you never get comfortable with ambulatory anesthesia during residency, you never will in practice. Also, being great at trauma has nothing to do with orthognathics and vice versa. You need both. Finally, I could learn Head and Neck surgery in a fellowship but I can't learn dentoalveolar surgery in one.

PS "If you can do a neck dissection, you can take out #17." I beg to differ.

Gary "couldn't agree with this sentiment more" Ruska.

There are, generally speaking, surgical and technical skills that are broadly applicable to a wide range of procedures and those nuanced techniques that separate the men from the boys when it comes to specific procedures.

There is a great deal of painting with broad strokes on these boards when it comes to surgical skill, and it seems that many people err on the side of "doing bigger operations makes you a better surgeon...FOR EVERYTHING." This is, of course, not true.

Doing big OMFS procedures (bimaxillary procedures, panfacial trauma, head and neck, major craniofacial operations, etc.) makes you better at doing those procedures and operating for long periods of time. The skill transfer from these procedures to placing implants and doing routine dentoalveolar surgery are no more than basic surgical skills (flap design, incisions, dissection technique, hemostasis and suturing). The nuances of removing third molars or placing implants are far more complex than a cursory glance would suggest.

There are a few reasons for this, but the most important, in GR's opinion, is the "complexity paradox". This paradox is simple - the easier the procedure, the more careful you have to be because a complication or unfavorable outcome can be disastrous. For example, if a patient with ragining head and neck cancer undergoes a complicated neck dissection, with notable respiratory issues and requires prolonged ventilatory support, this can, in many or instances, be said to be related to the patient's disease and the relatively poor prognosis. While it is a significant event, it is, by no means, a rare one in this context.

Now, an otherwise healthy patient who walks into the office for third molar extraction and has a complication, even though it may be a clinically less substantial event, may end up being a bigger problem because its a "simple procedure."

The take home point is this - one needs to do big procedures frequently to justify continually performing procedures of this magnitude, where the potential for disastrous complications is high. One also needs to do a large volume of "small procedures" because a) the complications are relatively infrequent and the practitioner will only generate an adequate database of complications if enough procedures are done (the old adage that "if you haven't seen a dental implant complication, you simply haven't placed enough implants") and b) complications in otherwise healthy patients having elective or semi-elective procedures can be as devastating as the more serious clinical complications.

There comes a point in everyone's career trajectory where they need to decide what kind of practitioner they want to be. Unfortunately, due to the ever narrowing focus of sub-specialties, it seems that this is occurring earlier and earlier in career paths. Thus, it is the case that 3rd and 4th year dental students, operating with imperfect and incomplete information, need to choose programs based on specific foci of interest.

GR would make the following suggestions:
1. It is as important to know what you dislike as it is to know what you like.
2. Operations are cool. Anyone who wants to be a surgeon will agree. But, before you go to a program that does a ton of cancer, craniofacial or other "big procedures", spend some time in the associated clinics. This is where the real thinking and planning occurs. If you don't like this setting, no amount of operating can make up for it. Medicine is moving in a direction where surgical therapy is becoming less and less invasive. In the future, the operating will not be the most challenging aspect of the care of these patients.
3. With rare exceptions, anyone who wants to do head and neck oncology, craniofacial surgery or major facial esthetic surgery will need to do a fellowship. If you're not sure about these areas, go to a program that will offer you exposure, which is sufficient to help you decide whether to pursue additional training.
4. There are few implant/dentoalveolar fellowships. Learn these things well, as well as ambulatory anesthesia and benign path. This is how you will pay your bills, unless you belong to the group of <5% of oral surgeons.
 
Agreed, I know quite a few guys that graduated from big, oncology heavy programs, but now prefer to do private practice. Some wanted it that way, others ended up that way. As was stated earlier, at the moment, ANYONE wanting to do more sub-speciality type procedures WILL need a fellowship..both for patient saftey and medicolegal factors.

Even in programs with well established hx of caring for cancer pts, the attending/fellow will do most of the cutting. The chief may be in the case, but plays a lesser role (and rightfully so, this is a fellows time to shine, he/she earned it), or may elect to run another room. So their (cheif) hands-on is less than you would expect.

****, even if you do feel like a hot shot surg-onc doc, going out and cutting radical necks fresh out of residency is like painting a bulls-eye on your back for the ambulance chasers
 
I graduated from a 6 year program and I am in private practice. Here is my thoughts for all future wannabe residents and current residents:

If you train doing head and neck like I did, you will still not feel comfortable treating these patients without a head and neck team and thats usually a way you can work with other surgeons who have more experience than you do with flaps, xrt, chemo....If you treat these patients without a team approach, you better pray that cancer does not come back because I can think of many lawyers and ENT docs who will testify against you, unless you are fellowship trained and involved in a team. Therefore I dont do much onc now. Oh and also it does not pay the bills. Sure you can help raise flaps and do neck dissections in residency but are you going to do it in private practice, probably not. Neck dissection vs. thirds $$$$ Let me think about that??

If you trained to do cosmetics like I am you better make damn sure that girl likes her new nose because if not, I can think of many plastic surgeons and lawyers who would like to speak with you about how many cases you have done or if you our fellowship trained. Therefore I dont do much cosmetics. Pain in the ass patients and unless you do many cases you are not going to be that great compared to others that are fellowship trained. Oh,and in this economy, not many people willing to pay those fees. Plus your already at a disadvantage because all of our plastic and ENT colleagues our bad mouthing us and single degree guys have a disadvantage. AMA?? I am not saying you cant do it, I am just saying its not easy and a battle to be won if you ready to fight.

Craniofacial.. Forget about it unless you are fellowship trained. Sure ASIC grafts and cleft ortho but bigger cases, primary clefts, ribs, distraction. Rare unless you are in a small town and no one else is around, mainly our plastic surgeons who will eat you at the first thought of you trying to step into this field. Therefore I occasionally do cleft ortho or implants for cleft pt. No more ribs, distraction, etc. My plastic buddies own that. Its the one surgical field I feel we are still behind when compared to head and neck and plastics.

Thats leaves us with benign path (cysts, etc...), dentoalveolar and trauma of which will be a main part of your practice and the only thing that pays is dentoalveolar and benign path. Trauma can pay if they have insurance otherwise its charity work to write off for your taxes. Forget about TMJ and Ortho Surg. Most insurance companies have exclusions and its rare to find patients that have coverage. 75% of my ortho and tmj consults have insurance but have exclusions. That means no surgery unless they can afford it which is not as common years ago. Unless insurance rules are different then where I live.

FINAL THOUGHT: Make sure your program has a great experience in implants, thirds, anesthesia, benign path because this pays the bill, makes you wealthy and keeps the lights on in your practice and the phone ringing. The other big cases..cancer, cosmetics, cranio makes you a good surgeon with better skills but i my opinion nothing is like having losts of those bread and butter cases in private practice of which I did not have with implants. Now I am suffering but I can do a nose job, followed by a rib harvest and then a big cancer whack. Who cares other than my EGO.

Bigger case are great in residency but for most of you it will be a thing of the past to say I used to do that back in residency....unless you stay in academics.
 
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which 4 yr progs are known more for "bread & butter" scope? is galveston or oklahoma or houston in that list?
 
I graduated from a 6 year program and I am in private practice. Here is my thoughts for all future wannabe residents and current residents:

If you train doing head and neck like I did, you will still not feel comfortable treating these patients without a head and neck team and thats usually a way you can work with other surgeons who have more experience than you do with flaps, xrt, chemo....If you treat these patients without a team approach, you better pray that cancer does not come back because I can think of many lawyers and ENT docs who will testify against you, unless you are fellowship trained and involved in a team. Therefore I dont do much onc now. Oh and also it does not pay the bills. Sure you can help raise flaps and do neck dissections in residency but are you going to do it in private practice, probably not. Neck dissection vs. thirds $$$$ Let me think about that??

If you trained to do cosmetics like I am you better make damn sure that girl likes her new nose because if not, I can think of many plastic surgeons and lawyers who would like to speak with you about how many cases you have done or if you our fellowship trained. Therefore I dont do much cosmetics. Pain in the ass patients and unless you do many cases you are not going to be that great compared to others that are fellowship trained. Oh,and in this economy, not many people willing to pay those fees. Plus your already at a disadvantage because all of our plastic and ENT colleagues our bad mouthing us and single degree guys have a disadvantage. AMA?? I am not saying you cant do it, I am just saying its not easy and a battle to be won if you ready to fight.

Craniofacial.. Forget about it unless you are fellowship trained. Sure ASIC grafts and cleft ortho but bigger cases, primary clefts, ribs, distraction. Rare unless you are in a small town and no one else is around, mainly our plastic surgeons who will eat you at the first thought of you trying to step into this field. Therefore I occasionally do cleft ortho or implants for cleft pt. No more ribs, distraction, etc. My plastic buddies own that. Its the one surgical field I feel we are still behind when compared to head and neck and plastics.

Thats leaves us with benign path (cysts, etc...), dentoalveolar and trauma of which will be a main part of your practice and the only thing that pays is dentoalveolar and benign path. Trauma can pay if they have insurance otherwise its charity work to write off for your taxes. Forget about TMJ and Ortho Surg. Most insurance companies have exclusions and its rare to find patients that have coverage. 75% of my ortho and tmj consults have insurance but have exclusions. That means no surgery unless they can afford it which is not as common years ago. Unless insurance rules are different then where I live.

FINAL THOUGHT: Make sure your program has a great experience in implants, thirds, anesthesia, benign path because this pays the bill, makes you wealthy and keeps the lights on in your practice and the phone ringing. The other big cases..cancer, cosmetics, cranio makes you a good surgeon with better skills but i my opinion nothing is like having losts of those bread and butter cases in private practice of which I did not have with implants. Now I am suffering but I can do a nose job, followed by a rib harvest and then a big cancer whack. Who cares other than my EGO.

Bigger case are great in residency but for most of you it will be a thing of the past to say I used to do that back in residency....unless you stay in academics.


this is depressing....
 
I graduated from a 6 year program and I am in private practice. Here is my thoughts for all future wannabe residents and current residents:

If you train doing head and neck like I did, you will still not feel comfortable treating these patients without a head and neck team and thats usually a way you can work with other surgeons who have more experience than you do with flaps, xrt, chemo....If you treat these patients without a team approach, you better pray that cancer does not come back because I can think of many lawyers and ENT docs who will testify against you, unless you are fellowship trained and involved in a team. Therefore I dont do much onc now. Oh and also it does not pay the bills. Sure you can help raise flaps and do neck dissections in residency but are you going to do it in private practice, probably not. Neck dissection vs. thirds $$$$ Let me think about that??

If you trained to do cosmetics like I am you better make damn sure that girl likes her new nose because if not, I can think of many plastic surgeons and lawyers who would like to speak with you about how many cases you have done or if you our fellowship trained. Therefore I dont do much cosmetics. Pain in the ass patients and unless you do many cases you are not going to be that great compared to others that are fellowship trained. Oh,and in this economy, not many people willing to pay those fees. Plus your already at a disadvantage because all of our plastic and ENT colleagues our bad mouthing us and single degree guys have a disadvantage. AMA?? I am not saying you cant do it, I am just saying its not easy and a battle to be won if you ready to fight.

Craniofacial.. Forget about it unless you are fellowship trained. Sure ASIC grafts and cleft ortho but bigger cases, primary clefts, ribs, distraction. Rare unless you are in a small town and no one else is around, mainly our plastic surgeons who will eat you at the first thought of you trying to step into this field. Therefore I occasionally do cleft ortho or implants for cleft pt. No more ribs, distraction, etc. My plastic buddies own that. Its the one surgical field I feel we are still behind when compared to head and neck and plastics.

Thats leaves us with benign path (cysts, etc...), dentoalveolar and trauma of which will be a main part of your practice and the only thing that pays is dentoalveolar and benign path. Trauma can pay if they have insurance otherwise its charity work to write off for your taxes. Forget about TMJ and Ortho Surg. Most insurance companies have exclusions and its rare to find patients that have coverage. 75% of my ortho and tmj consults have insurance but have exclusions. That means no surgery unless they can afford it which is not as common years ago. Unless insurance rules are different then where I live.

FINAL THOUGHT: Make sure your program has a great experience in implants, thirds, anesthesia, benign path because this pays the bill, makes you wealthy and keeps the lights on in your practice and the phone ringing. The other big cases..cancer, cosmetics, cranio makes you a good surgeon with better skills but i my opinion nothing is like having losts of those bread and butter cases in private practice of which I did not have with implants. Now I am suffering but I can do a nose job, followed by a rib harvest and then a big cancer whack. Who cares other than my EGO.

Bigger case are great in residency but for most of you it will be a thing of the past to say I used to do that back in residency....unless you stay in academics.

This is the friggin post of the year, and its not until the end of 3rd year-4th year that you realize what it means to be in the world of PP. If you love dentoalveolar sx, and trauma the world is yours. If not, stick with academia, and keep beatin that 02' corolla with the "I Kut" license plate (true story).
 
This is the friggin post of the year, and its not until the end of 3rd year-4th year that you realize what it means to be in the world of PP. If you love dentoalveolar sx, and trauma the world is yours. If not, stick with academia, and keep beatin that 02' corolla with the "I Kut" license plate (true story).

Agreed. Which 6 and 4 yr programs fit the description?
 
this is depressing....


Sorry, I did not write this to make you depressed. Its the fact Jack. You dont learn this in academics but when you get out, no one cares about your million and one big ass 23 hour trauma, onc or craniofacial cases. Most referring dentist care about what you are going to do for them, (ie. take that dump of a case at 4pm on a friday, remove their roots of which they kindly removed the crown for you and then they tell you to bill them instead of the patient. And lastly they want you to lecture to them and feed them all while they get free CE credits while you beg and plead for their patients.) I am devoted to them to live and breath. I am their bitch.
Sure I miss all those cool complex onc, cranio, cosmetic cases that make you a more confident and knowledgeable surgeon within those areas. Sure ortho surg and TMJ surg is possible to do somewhat frequently in private practice and something i currently do if they have coverage, but I am only talking about all of these complex fellowship type of cases that most dental students looks at when trying to pick their ideal residency program not knowing that when they finish in 4-6 years thats not the real world. I still love what I do and would not change a thing except maybe getting into a program that had more implant experience rather than raising a Trap flap and doing pulse checks at 2am.
 
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Sorry, I did not write this to make you depressed. Its the fact Jack. You dont learn this in academics but when you get out, no one cares about your million and one big ass 23 hour trauma, onc or craniofacial cases. Most referring dentist care about what you are going to do for them, (ie. take that dump of a case at 4pm on a friday, remove their roots of which they kindly removed the crown for you and then they tell you to bill them instead of the patient. And lastly they want you to lecture to them and feed them all while they get free CE credits while you beg and plead for their patients.) I am devoted to them to live and breath. I am their bitch.
Sure I miss all those cool complex onc, cranio, cosmetic cases that make you a more confident and knowledgeable surgeon within those areas. Sure ortho surg and TMJ surg is possible to do somewhat frequently in private practice and something i currently do if they have coverage, but I am only talking about all of these complex fellowship type of cases that most dental students looks at when trying to pick their ideal residency program not knowing that when they finish in 4-6 years thats not the real world. I still love what I do and would not change a thing except maybe getting into a program that had more implant experience rather than raising a Trap flap and doing pulse checks at 2am.

Xigris,

even more depressing....

You call yourself a bitch.🙁
 
Xigris,

even more depressing....

You call yourself a bitch.🙁

That's the downside of the up of having a referral based practice.

Xigris,

What was your residency experience with implants like in terms of #'s? Were you expecting private practice to be different? If so, how?
 
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I graduated from a 6 year program and I am in private practice. Here is my thoughts for all future wannabe residents and current residents:

If you train doing head and neck like I did, you will still not feel comfortable treating these patients without a head and neck team and thats usually a way you can work with other surgeons who have more experience than you do with flaps, xrt, chemo....If you treat these patients without a team approach, you better pray that cancer does not come back because I can think of many lawyers and ENT docs who will testify against you, unless you are fellowship trained and involved in a team. Therefore I dont do much onc now. Oh and also it does not pay the bills. Sure you can help raise flaps and do neck dissections in residency but are you going to do it in private practice, probably not. Neck dissection vs. thirds $$$$ Let me think about that??

If you trained to do cosmetics like I am you better make damn sure that girl likes her new nose because if not, I can think of many plastic surgeons and lawyers who would like to speak with you about how many cases you have done or if you our fellowship trained. Therefore I dont do much cosmetics. Pain in the ass patients and unless you do many cases you are not going to be that great compared to others that are fellowship trained. Oh,and in this economy, not many people willing to pay those fees. Plus your already at a disadvantage because all of our plastic and ENT colleagues our bad mouthing us and single degree guys have a disadvantage. AMA?? I am not saying you cant do it, I am just saying its not easy and a battle to be won if you ready to fight.

Craniofacial.. Forget about it unless you are fellowship trained. Sure ASIC grafts and cleft ortho but bigger cases, primary clefts, ribs, distraction. Rare unless you are in a small town and no one else is around, mainly our plastic surgeons who will eat you at the first thought of you trying to step into this field. Therefore I occasionally do cleft ortho or implants for cleft pt. No more ribs, distraction, etc. My plastic buddies own that. Its the one surgical field I feel we are still behind when compared to head and neck and plastics.

Thats leaves us with benign path (cysts, etc...), dentoalveolar and trauma of which will be a main part of your practice and the only thing that pays is dentoalveolar and benign path. Trauma can pay if they have insurance otherwise its charity work to write off for your taxes. Forget about TMJ and Ortho Surg. Most insurance companies have exclusions and its rare to find patients that have coverage. 75% of my ortho and tmj consults have insurance but have exclusions. That means no surgery unless they can afford it which is not as common years ago. Unless insurance rules are different then where I live.

FINAL THOUGHT: Make sure your program has a great experience in implants, thirds, anesthesia, benign path because this pays the bill, makes you wealthy and keeps the lights on in your practice and the phone ringing. The other big cases..cancer, cosmetics, cranio makes you a good surgeon with better skills but i my opinion nothing is like having losts of those bread and butter cases in private practice of which I did not have with implants. Now I am suffering but I can do a nose job, followed by a rib harvest and then a big cancer whack. Who cares other than my EGO.

Bigger case are great in residency but for most of you it will be a thing of the past to say I used to do that back in residency....unless you stay in academics.

Such an honest comment; very true. My oral surgeon said the exact same thing to me.
 
I graduated from a 6 year program and I am in private practice. Here is my thoughts for all future wannabe residents and current residents:

If you train doing head and neck like I did, you will still not feel comfortable treating these patients without a head and neck team and thats usually a way you can work with other surgeons who have more experience than you do with flaps, xrt, chemo....If you treat these patients without a team approach, you better pray that cancer does not come back because I can think of many lawyers and ENT docs who will testify against you, unless you are fellowship trained and involved in a team. Therefore I dont do much onc now. Oh and also it does not pay the bills. Sure you can help raise flaps and do neck dissections in residency but are you going to do it in private practice, probably not. Neck dissection vs. thirds $$$$ Let me think about that??

If you trained to do cosmetics like I am you better make damn sure that girl likes her new nose because if not, I can think of many plastic surgeons and lawyers who would like to speak with you about how many cases you have done or if you our fellowship trained. Therefore I dont do much cosmetics. Pain in the ass patients and unless you do many cases you are not going to be that great compared to others that are fellowship trained. Oh,and in this economy, not many people willing to pay those fees. Plus your already at a disadvantage because all of our plastic and ENT colleagues our bad mouthing us and single degree guys have a disadvantage. AMA?? I am not saying you cant do it, I am just saying its not easy and a battle to be won if you ready to fight.

Craniofacial.. Forget about it unless you are fellowship trained. Sure ASIC grafts and cleft ortho but bigger cases, primary clefts, ribs, distraction. Rare unless you are in a small town and no one else is around, mainly our plastic surgeons who will eat you at the first thought of you trying to step into this field. Therefore I occasionally do cleft ortho or implants for cleft pt. No more ribs, distraction, etc. My plastic buddies own that. Its the one surgical field I feel we are still behind when compared to head and neck and plastics.

Thats leaves us with benign path (cysts, etc...), dentoalveolar and trauma of which will be a main part of your practice and the only thing that pays is dentoalveolar and benign path. Trauma can pay if they have insurance otherwise its charity work to write off for your taxes. Forget about TMJ and Ortho Surg. Most insurance companies have exclusions and its rare to find patients that have coverage. 75% of my ortho and tmj consults have insurance but have exclusions. That means no surgery unless they can afford it which is not as common years ago. Unless insurance rules are different then where I live.

FINAL THOUGHT: Make sure your program has a great experience in implants, thirds, anesthesia, benign path because this pays the bill, makes you wealthy and keeps the lights on in your practice and the phone ringing. The other big cases..cancer, cosmetics, cranio makes you a good surgeon with better skills but i my opinion nothing is like having losts of those bread and butter cases in private practice of which I did not have with implants. Now I am suffering but I can do a nose job, followed by a rib harvest and then a big cancer whack. Who cares other than my EGO.

Bigger case are great in residency but for most of you it will be a thing of the past to say I used to do that back in residency....unless you stay in academics.

so how much orthognathic + TMJ surgery does the typical OMS do, let's say, on a monthly basis?

also, how does trauma work exactly for private practice? I see a lot of OMS sites listing facial trauma as one of their procedures. But surely, someone with a smashed-in face doesn't just walk in to your office for surgery? right?

lastly, I shadowed a PP OMS last summer and saw him treat a girl with "lockjaw" once. He basically put her under and did what looked like shaking/massaging her jaw while trying to yank it open. He stopped after her mouth opened wide enough as measured using some protractor-like device. The whole process took about 10-15min. My question: what type of procedure was this, do OMS deal with them often, and do they get paid for it?

Sorry if these are obvious questions. I'm just a lowly predent.

EDIT: I guess these questions would be more appropriate in the "Ask an OMFS Resident anything thread" but hopefully they'll get answered here too 🙂
 
so how much orthognathic + TMJ surgery does the typical OMS do, let's say, on a monthly basis? And the implant question asked earlier.

First response on dental implants. As it pertained to my training, I was not afforded the opportunity to physically place a lot of impants, treatment plan them on my own or do major sinus grafting / vertical or width augmentation or CT grafting. Sure I did some but usually it was what the attending already treatment planned and I just assisted or on occasions placed them. I probably did < 30 implants in my residency. I consider that poor and with the lack of independent treatment planning, I was just a monkey putting a screw in a hole that was already treatment planned. I could teach anyone how to physically do this, but thats not the point. My point is to find a residency that gives you a good experience with everything I lacked, from placement to planning so you feel more prepared to do "All on 4", locators, esthetic grafting for those difficult cases, etc...I have learned more on the go in PP then I would of if I just did more of these cases in residency. Dont think everything should be learned in residency, thats not what I am saying. Just make sure that other residents tell you that implants and bone grafting is a good portion of your experience. Residents for the most part will not lie. Also the more implant systems you are accustomed to the better. In PP if a dentist wants Astra, I am not going to say, "Well Dr. I have never placed a Astra implant, how about Nobel instead?" Thats a quick way to lose a referral.


Second response about TMJ, Ortho. If you know how to bill for these cases you can do as many as you like. It takes time to build a name in the community amoungst Orthodontist as the person to go to for surgery, So be patient and do eductional lectures to them or meet and great sessions. If your lucky and they have ortho surg benefits, and if you dont mind getting 850$ for a Lefort 1 like Blue Cross gave me months ago then you can do a fair number. I find the issue with limited numbers is, One- lack of ortho surg benefits. Two-orthodontist are treating surgical patients now with just ortho with the assistance of tads for example. Three-some of these patients get referred to academic programs and that is what the orthodontist has been accustomed to for years and are not willing to break the mold. " I know a orthodontist that sends pateints out of state to have surgery because they feel that is the best surgeon to treat them."

I know surgeons who do 20-30 a year and I feel thats a good amount but I think average surgeon < 10 a year and some none at all. Now I know there are the rare surgeons doing a but load in practice, that takes years to build and relationships created in the community and with insurance companies. Hell if you can make a deal with a insurance company to do it for a reduced fee in your surgical certified suite at your office like M. Tucker does it, than the world is yours.

The most famous way of thinking as a Oral Surgeon in Private Practice: "How Many Sets of thirds or implants can I do in that allocated time rather than that hospital trauma case, orthognathic surgery case, cancer case, etc.." I think it all the time but I choose full scope practice becasue I love it and its not always about the dollar.

Just my thoughts, maybe not others, but my experience.

take care. this field still rocks and I love it.
 
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First response on dental implants. As it pertained to my training, I was not afforded the opportunity to physically place a lot of impants, treatment plan them on my own or do major sinus grafting / vertical or width augmentation or CT grafting. Sure I did some but usually it was what the attending already treatment planned and I just assisted or on occasions placed them. I probably did < 30 implants in my residency. I consider that poor and with the lack of independent treatment planning, I was just a monkey putting a screw in a hole that was already treatment planned. I could teach anyone how to physically do this, but thats not the point. My point is to find a residency that gives you a good experience with everything I lacked, from placement to planning so you feel more prepared to do "All on 4", locators, esthetic grafting for those difficult cases, etc...I have learned more on the go in PP then I would of if I just did more of these cases in residency. Dont think everything should be learned in residency, thats not what I am saying. Just make sure that other residents tell you that implants and bone grafting is a good portion of your experience. Residents for the most part will not lie. Also the more implant systems you are accustomed to the better. In PP if a dentist wants Astra, I am not going to say, "Well Dr. I have never placed a Astra implant, how about Nobel instead?" Thats a quick way to lose a referral.
Well said👍. This is why I disagree with the statement that in the future, perio and OS will do less implants in their practices because the GPs will eventually do them all. Sure, there are plenty of CE courses and GPR programs that teach the GPs to place implants…but this is not enough to allow the GPs to handle complex cases such as multiple missing teeth, overdenture, anterior implant, bone graft etc. There are plenty of these complex cases out there to keep OS and perio busy.
 
Lets not get ahead of ourselves, or even kid ourselves here...GP have been and will continue to place implants, but these are case selected. For everyone like Xigris, there is one one like me, I've so far placed over 100 implants (in 3rd year now, chief in July), at least half of which were with some form of grafting procedure ranging from simple allograft to blocks, with screws/without, tunneling, you name it...I was primary on all.

I find it hard to belive that GD (with the exception of the guys that had peripheral training)would have the experience and confidence to pull some of the more difficult cases off (CT grafts, ramus, split ridge, etc)..not necessarily hard, but unknown. So either some of these being placed by GD are poorly TXP with questionalbe outcome, or they overnight became M. Block. You really don't have a good baseline until you see some of the clinical outcomes a great oral surgeon can produce.

From an overhead, to surgical time, to complications (nerve injury, sinus communication, fenestrations)...the majority of GD will see it more worth while to refer...more specifically to OMS, God forbid you refer to a perio to get a graft, you'd kill the poor guy's schedule for the entire day.
 
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Lets not get ahead of ourselves, or even kid ourselves here...GP have been and will continue to place implants, but these are case selected.

Agree. Most GD will place simple implants but there are still all those more difficult cases we will get. I think as more and more implants are taught in dental school and the more courses offered to GD on this surgery you will see them explore to include implant placement. The older dentist dont want to learn this, the middle age dentist for the most part dont have a interest but occasionaly you will find some that do the simple ones, then you have the younger dentist (especially GPR trained) that will be doing implant placment in the future as that field makes it easier for them to place (surgical guides, etc..). But as we all know, not everyone is a easy implant case and those we will always see.
 
Agree. Most GD will place simple implants but there are still all those more difficult cases we will get. I think as more and more implants are taught in dental school and the more courses offered to GD on this surgery you will see them explore to include implant placement. The older dentist dont want to learn this, the middle age dentist for the most part dont have a interest but occasionaly you will find some that do the simple ones, then you have the younger dentist (especially GPR trained) that will be doing implant placment in the future as that field makes it easier for them to place (surgical guides, etc..). But as we all know, not everyone is a easy implant case and those we will always see.

Now that you've been in practice for 6 months do you feel like you're 'up to speed' on more complex implant treatment (CT grafting, guided surgery, all-on-4, other things you mentioned above?) If you still feel like you're lagging behind, do you think you'll ever catch up or did you miss the boat?

As far as those of us who are still in residency (especially at places without significant bread and butter training) any recommendations for what to do while we're still here to 'get ahead'?
 
Now that you've been in practice for 6 months do you feel like you're 'up to speed' on more complex implant treatment (CT grafting, guided surgery, all-on-4, other things you mentioned above?) If you still feel like you're lagging behind, do you think you'll ever catch up or did you miss the boat?

As far as those of us who are still in residency (especially at places without significant bread and butter training) any recommendations for what to do while we're still here to 'get ahead'?


I have been out for 2 years. I learned about dental implants and grafting in residency and did some cases of which I do not feel as if it was enough, but thats life. Not every program has everything perfect about it. Over the past 2 years, I have caught up, but still more to go as you are always learning even after residency.

Regarding those bread and butter cases, do as much as you can in residency and learn as much through reading, journal club, watching others, etc.. You will likely come out feeling comfortable doing implants but maybe not overly comfortable as I was. But you will learn more in the real world like I did. Its not as if I did not know anything or do any cases concerning implants or grafting in residency. It was just not enough from my perspective when compared to all those other bigger cases I did (cancer, cranio, etc..) You will be fine as most residents are. Some are just more prepared and experienced in certain areas of our speciality than others. Thats residency. But after several years most of us are all doing well in practice. Dont worry.
 
A lot of the companies will bend over backwards to train you to do the CT guided stuff (in theory anyway), I've done a couple big Navigator case, first one I had the rep in the room. Talk to them, you'd be surprized how much resources they have, additionally they recognize that the relationships they make with the residents may some day benefit them, so they work on that front as well.
 
A lot of the companies will bend over backwards to train you to do the CT guided stuff (in theory anyway), I've done a couple big Navigator case, first one I had the rep in the room. Talk to them, you'd be surprized how much resources they have, additionally they recognize that the relationships they make with the residents may some day benefit them, so they work on that front as well.

Yeah, CT guided implant surgery is coming to Parkland in a big way in the near future.
 
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