LOR Denied?

[rileyroo]

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hi! i'm relatively new here, but have been lurking for a few months. just wondering if anyone had ever asked someone to write a letter of recommendation and was denied? i've contacted all three of my potential evaluators - two of them have committed and i'm waiting to hear from the third one. hoping i won't be denied 😀

 

[sumstorm]

I discussed one with a vet I worked with overseas. Wasn't exactly denied, but his english wasn't great, and he wasn't comfortable writing one.

 

[jpeterman13]

I've heard of evaluators warning people that they couldn't write them a flattering letter due to various reasons (i.e. limited one on one interaction, etc.). I've never heard of anyone flat out saying "No", although I'm sure that it's happened. good luck.

 

[rileyroo]

I've heard of evaluators warning people that they couldn't write them a flattering letter due to various reasons (i.e. limited one on one interaction, etc.). I've never heard of anyone flat out saying "No", although I'm sure that it's happened. good luck.

i've heard of that as well...which is completely understandable. just asking about personal LOR experiences.

 

[nyanko]

I don't know about outright denial, but when I ask someone to write a rec letter I do make sure I ask if they think they know me well enough to write me a really good rec letter. I think that's the important part...

 

[VAgirl]

Nope, but I did have someone agree to write me a LOR and then totally flake out on me, never to be heard from again.

 

[rileyroo]

Nope, but I did have someone agree to write me a LOR and then totally flake out on me, never to be heard from again.

that's horrible! i actually didn't ask one doctor i worked for to write an LOR for me for that reason. i had a feeling she would probably do something similar.

 

[david594]

I've heard of evaluators warning people that they couldn't write them a flattering letter due to various reasons (i.e. limited one on one interaction, etc.). I've never heard of anyone flat out saying "No", although I'm sure that it's happened. good luck.

A professor I had write my LOR told me she has refused to write letters in the past for students. If she didn't feel she knew a student well enough, or knew them well enough, but still couldn't write them a good letter of recommendation she would decline to write it.

 

[Kat0303]

I was denied a LOR. I understood the reason though...I was 21 when asking for the letter, and I had not seen or spoken to the vet since I was 16. It was a high school summer job, and I had only worked there for a few months. I figured he would have a hard time remembering enough about me to write one, so I was appreciative for him being honest and saying he couldn't write me a good one. I asked him to write one instead of the vet I had more recently worked for, because that vet was reaaaallly unfriendly, and I didn't know if she could write a positive letter about Mother Teresa, much less about me. I ended up going to her anyway afterwards, and she did agree to write me one. So, it all turned out fine in the end, though it was a little embarressing to get deined even though it wasn't personal.

 

[No Imagination]

Technically, if someone is/has agreed to write you a LoR, it has to be a good one. Now, there are differences between good and GREAT, and one way people get around this is with the language.

"Mr. Smith showed adequate understanding of the principles and performed his duties in the lab to my satisfaction" - Isn't going to turn any heads...

However, it is actually illegal (well, you can sue) if someone writes you a BAD LoR. I know it sounds ridiculous, but I know someone it happened to during my undergrad. Apparently, if you ask someone to write you a LoR, and they agree, they have agree'ed to write you a Letter of Recommendation, not an evaluation.

Always thought that was interesting.

 

[chris03333]

A professor I had write my LOR told me she has refused to write letters in the past for students. If she didn't feel she knew a student well enough, or knew them well enough, but still couldn't write them a good letter of recommendation she would decline to write it.

I have refused for these reasons. If I cannot write a super positive personal LOR, they are better off having someone else write it.

 

[ckgilabert]

I got a No from a vet...he had graduated a year earlier and told me that he thinks that with my stats....(low gpa and gre score, and not A LOT of hours of experience) that i should find a vet that has a lot of experience and not him.

he was realy nice about it though. 🙂 lol


im really happy with who i had write mine, they had YEARS of experience in what they did and they knew me pretty well.

 

[Willowhand]

I haven't had anyone refuse, but I did have one person who agreed to write a LoR ask me to write one for them . It was their evaluation year at the college, and they needed someone who had been in a lot of their classes to write about their teaching style and abilities. Rather unexpected, but it was nice to be able to do something for them in return.

Rileyroo, is that your horse in your avatar? He (or she? pic is too small to tell) is beautiful!

 

[rileyroo]

Rileyroo, is that your horse in your avatar? He (or she? pic is too small to tell) is beautiful!

i WISH it was my horse. it's someone else's beautiful friesian. 🙁 thanks for the compliment on the avatar though. 😉

 

[Kat0303]

Technically, if someone is/has agreed to write you a LoR, it has to be a good one. Now, there are differences between good and GREAT, and one way people get around this is with the language.

"Mr. Smith showed adequate understanding of the principles and performed his duties in the lab to my satisfaction" - Isn't going to turn any heads...

However, it is actually illegal (well, you can sue) if someone writes you a BAD LoR. I know it sounds ridiculous, but I know someone it happened to during my undergrad. Apparently, if you ask someone to write you a LoR, and they agree, they have agree'ed to write you a Letter of Recommendation, not an evaluation.

Always thought that was interesting.

That is interesting. I'm glad that's the case because it would be so wrong for someone to agree and then write a negative one.

 

[rileyroo]

That is interesting. I'm glad that's the case because it would be so wrong for someone to agree and then write a negative one.

i would definitely prefer someone to say they couldn't honestly write a strong letter of recommendation on my behalf than to write one using abstract words as mentioned in a previous reply - stating that i just completed tasks as requested. but i'd really prefer that my third potential evaluator feel as though they could write a strong letter on my behalf, considering i have worked for them for 2 years. 🙂 if not, i'm not going to be in a good position. 🙁

 

[susiewaits]

A while back I asked a professor for a LOR a year in advance as I was graduating. Specifically I said.

" Hi Professor so and so, as you know I am applying for veterinary school, and I was hoping to get your recommondation" (something like that)

He looked at me and said "no. Ask me again, and be more specific as to what kind of recommondation you would like"

" A good one?"

He said to make sure to be specific when you are asking anyone for a recommondation. In asking for a GOOD recommondation you are kind of verbally binding them to a good eval. Since then I have taken his advice and always been specific. 🙂

 

[rileyroo]

A while back I asked a professor for a LOR a year in advance as I was graduating. Specifically I said.

" Hi Professor so and so, as you know I am applying for veterinary school, and I was hoping to get your recommondation" (something like that)

He looked at me and said "no. Ask me again, and be more specific as to what kind of recommondation you would like"

" A good one?"

He said to make sure to be specific when you are asking anyone for a recommondation. In asking for a GOOD recommondation you are kind of verbally binding them to a good eval. Since then I have taken his advice and always been specific. 🙂

i contacted the vet i have worked one-on-one with for 2 years, two days ago, asking if she would write a good letter of recommendation on my behalf. she usually responds rather quickly, but i haven't heard from her. i'm thinking at this point she's trying to figure out the best way to say no. 🙁 but that is great advice...to be specific when asking for a recommendation.

 

[Shanomong]

i WISH it was my horse. it's someone else's beautiful friesian. 🙁 thanks for the compliment on the avatar though. 😉

I was actually going to ask if that was a real horse or a statue... he really is so beautiful, it's hard to believe he's real!

 

[GeeQued]

I think the important thing in not getting denied is asking the right people first. Do you feel they know you well enough to write one and have you had good experiences with them where you can demonstrate you are capable of pursuing this career. I wasn't denied one but I spent a lot of time figuring out who to ask. I wanted 2 veterinarians but was one short and just started a job but I really clicked with one of the vets (I worked mobile clinic which meant I worked with up to 15 different vets in a span of 2 months none of them twice) She flat out said it would be an honor to write mine when she would have been the last one I expected to (I spent a whole 20 hours working for her at the time but later offered to let me help out at her own private practice. My others was a professor I had for 5 + class with all A's in and a close relationship with and the other two Ive known since I was 8.

I think working one on one with someone for 2 years is a good amount of time to ask for an LOR since they would have had a lot of interaction with you, remember its summertime maybe she's on vacation 😀 I'm typically the type of person that responds to emails within 30 mins (the get sent to my phone ) but theres times it will take me a week to respond if life is rather hectic.

 

[rileyroo]

I was actually going to ask if that was a real horse or a statue... he really is so beautiful, it's hard to believe he's real!

i looked back at my avatar after reading this and realized it really does look statuesque lol i agree, it's hard to believe this is a real horse! 🙂

 

[rileyroo]

I think working one on one with someone for 2 years is a good amount of time to ask for an LOR since they would have had a lot of interaction with you, remember its summertime maybe she's on vacation 😀 I'm typically the type of person that responds to emails within 30 mins (the get sent to my phone ) but theres times it will take me a week to respond if life is rather hectic.

i felt like this LOR had potential to be my strongest in reference to my skills, dedication, work ethic, etc but really feared asking her to write it b/c she comes across as someone who could possibly despise writing letters. if this is the case, i really do hope she is honest and says that instead of submitting a letter that conveys such an attitude. which would be really unfortunate.

i worked in a clinic a few years ago where the vet was asked to write a rec. she complained nonstop about having to write it. but i kept thinking "then why did you agree to do it?" the vet ended up having the receptionist write the letter b/c she didn't want to. the receptionist had never worked with the individual and as she was working on it, i felt like she was just making things up. that experience scarred me b/c as they read it out loud, i knew this letter was a waste for that student. there was no thought put into it. they just wanted to get it over with. 🙁

 

[nyanko]

Apparently, if you ask someone to write you a LoR, and they agree, they have agree'ed to write you a Letter of Recommendation, not an evaluation.

VMCAS language says an evaluation though.

Furthermore, isn't a recommendation that the candidate is not prepared for vet school/is a mediocre candidate/smells funny still a recommendation to a committee (in this case, a recommendation to use caution or not admit the candidate)? I don't feel like the word "recommendation" inherently means good, necessarily.

 

[DVMorBust]

VMCAS language says an evaluation though.

Furthermore, isn't a recommendation that the candidate is not prepared for vet school/is a mediocre candidate/smells funny still a recommendation to a committee (in this case, a recommendation to use caution or not admit the candidate)? I don't feel like the word "recommendation" inherently means good, necessarily.

Well, yeah, but when you ask for a 'letter of recommendation for vet school' they've agreed for a positive evaluation, recommending you for vet school...this is why it's important to ask in the right way. Plus, as some people have mentioned, you can write a positive letter that's really the kiss of death - a lackluster recommendation is in many cases worse than a letter with negatives. At least with the negatives you left an impression! EDIT: meaning that even having them write a 'positive letter' isn't necessarily a positive thing. So again with the asking correctly.

Plus, there's an evaluation part (ranking you on a big list of qualities) along with submitting the letter they write, so the letter's just part of it.

 

[chris03333]

Just FYI as I completed an ELOR for a VMCAS applicant for 2013 class...

It is called a "letter of reference" not "recommendation" on the form. The part where you rank all of the listed qualities is mandatory, a letter is optional (of course you would have to be a lazy jerk to agree to do this and not actually write a letter also)...

 

[246202]

I prefaced all of my requests with "Do you feel you can write a LOR that references specific examples to support your recommendation? Please tell me NO if you are not 100% comfortable writing a stellar LOR for me. I would actually prefer that instead of writing an average/generic letter. It will not hurt my feelings. I will actually respect the honesty more."

I have worked with many doctors and so I had a larger pool of writers to choose from typical applicants. One of my writers had worked in another town for 2 years. Two were doctors with current interaction and the last was my current manager from the business sector.

I worked for the Head of the Physiology department on a retrospective study and had made some significant contributions. However, since I did not personally feel we had spent enough time together in the trenches and thus really evaluate my persona, ethics, and character I determined s/he sh/could not be asked. However, since s/he worked for one of the schools that I applied to, the adcoms asked her/him about me anyways. [They do follow up on your applications beyond the printed word.]

Later, I received an email from this doctor asking why I did not ask them to write a LOR. I explained my evaluation of the situation. [And then apologized for not asking.] I had not expected that s/he would have been willing to write a LOR given the limited contact. Point: don't rule out potential letter writers due to limited contact but still be selective with who you ask. It is your future and your job to manage it.

Best of luck to everyone. I certainly am rooting for you all. I do remember the stressful application process.

 

[sumstorm]

When I asked for LOR's I also was relatively specific in what I was hoping they were willing to address. In other words, I didn't want 3 LOR's saying essentially the same thing. I asked the zoo vet to address diversity of experience and some other things specific to zoo medicine, I asked the SA clinic vet to address my work ethic and communicaiton skills with staff and clients, and I asked my professor to write about the research I had done under him along with the assistance I provided in other research projects and the ability to integrate across fields. I used a bit more tact but said something similar to sed2bncsucvm.

 

[BrumleyVet]

So here's another question about asking for a LOR - what is a good amount of time to have been working for a vet before asking for a LOR? I just started working at a multi-vet hospital and was hoping to get the application in for this cycle. I am working full time, but not sure if it is appropriate to ask for a letter lets say in September when I only started working there in June. I guess I'm just afraid of the "well I have only known you a couple of months" reply.

 

[rileyroo]

So here's another question about asking for a LOR - what is a good amount of time to have been working for a vet before asking for a LOR? I just started working at a multi-vet hospital and was hoping to get the application in for this cycle. I am working full time, but not sure if it is appropriate to ask for a letter lets say in September when I only started working there in June. I guess I'm just afraid of the "well I have only known you a couple of months" reply.

brumleyvet, if i'm not mistaken, someone on here said they had a vet write a letter for them that they had only worked with for a short time. for some reason i'm thinking it was someone who road along with an ambulatory vet for about 3 months. i think if you are working full time and establish a relationship with one (or all) of the vets, that it could be a very strong letter. perhaps it depends on your individual experience with this hospital. 🙂

EDIT: not to mention, i worked with one vet (one on one) for 2 years and when i asked her about writing a letter, she never responded. so duration might not make a difference in various situations. 😉

 

[StillDreaming]

I asked one of my professors and he said no because he sat on the admissions board so was telling all students no (to be fair I guess). I was kind of dissappointed, but it was okay. He ended up writing me a letter for Tufts since it wasn't a VMCAS school, so in the end I kinda wasn't denied. But ya, it was a little upsetting because I had known him for years and taken a pretty rough grad course with him as well as interacted with him a lot through one of the organizations I was heavily involved in, but I kind of expected him to say no when I went in to ask just because I had heard he wasn't writing letters that year.

 

[limerobin]

I was denied an LOR yesterday, and it hurt pretty badly.

I worked with this woman for 8 months, full time. It was my first teching job after working as kennel techs, assistants, etc. I learned so much and worked extremely hard. It was an awesome job...except for her. Seriously, she's one of the most cold-hearted people I have ever met. I swear to god she looked happy and had a smirk on her face when she said it would be "pretty hard" to write me a positive LOR.

I was 99% positive this woman didn't like me (for reasons unknown....personal?) but I thought that she could be an adult, put the differences aside, and not be able to deny the fact that I'm a hard worker and eager to learn more, etc....essentially, a good applicant for vet school. I was wrong. The only reason I bothered asking her is because, like i said, she is the first vet I've worked for and would be the only LOR from a veterinarian on my application. I'm 100% sure she doesn't like me now.

The only thing that keeps me from feeling like a horrible piece of poo, is knowing that this woman has some serious issues. Honesly, I almost feel bad for HER because she's such a bitter, cold person with no self-esteem. Almost 😛

GAHH!!! Done with venting now. I think this story (with some extra details to explain the b*itchiness) might have to be posted on the Why are vets all B*itches thread.

 

[twelvetigers]

...and would be the only LOR from a veterinarian on my application.

Keep in mind that you are required to have at least one LOR from a vet. I can't think of any schools that don't have this as a requirement. 🙁

Sorry, that sounds like a horrible situation!

 

[david594]

I was denied an LOR yesterday, and it hurt pretty badly.

She did you a favor by being honest with you. You would be much worse off than if she agreed and wrote you a poor to mediocre LOR.

 

[nyanko]

She did you a favor by being honest with you. You would be much worse off than if she agreed and wrote you a poor to mediocre LOR.

Yeah, that's probably one of the few things that's like, an instant application killer.

 

[jpeterman13]

I was 99% positive this woman didn't like me (for reasons unknown....personal?) ... I'm 100% sure she doesn't like me now.

There is a vet at the clinic where I work that I am sure doesn't like me. She gives the dogs more respect than me. Don't know why, I look almost EXACTLY like her husband. So I don't know if she hates her husband or something, but whatever . I recognized this like a week into working there and I concentrated on getting to know the other vets, one of which wrote me a letter. But I agree with david594 and nyanko, if she was going to write you a poor letter, it would ruin your application. You've still got a little more than a month though to find someone else, so good luck!

 

[Willowhand]

Some people just never learn to put their bizarre personal biases aside and behave in a socially acceptable manner. I've seen and experienced situations like that before, and I agree with what other people are saying; at least she was honorable enough not to take out her prejudices on your LOR.

That said, however, I have rarely seen people behave as you say this vet did without somehow justifying it to themselves. Have you tried approaching her and asking her why she feels this way about you? Perhaps at some point early on she misunderstood something about you or a situation arose in which you were wrongfully cast in a bad light. Talking with her in a humble and respectful manner while explaining how you feel might just get you somewhere -particularly if there are other staff members who can vouch for you. I'm sure it would be a difficult thing to do after what she said, but if you're careful you might just gain back some of her good will. And this is particularly important if she's the only vet you've worked for.

I'm sorry all this happened to you, and I hope it works out.

 

[shelterURIgirl]

Wow, limerobin, I really feel for your situation. That blows.

The upside to that situation is that even if this person had put personal issues aside, the LOR would still have been mediocre at best. Its best to get LOR from people that want you to succeed, not from people who are so resentful and [obviously] bitter at your upcoming success.

I supplied the people I asked with a printed copy of my personal statement and CV. This is something I recommend for two reasons. The first is that it helps everybody (especially the people who dont personally know you that well) feel comfortable in what they are writing. Two, if you wrote a personal statement that really helps sell you, it helps motivate and remind them about your best qualities.

 

[payme2]

I've gotten denied by professors many times. I didn't volunteer in any of their labs so I had to ask professors who would be willing to write me a LoR based on my class grades. I provided them my personal statement and CV.

The last professor I asked said she couldn't write one due to time constraints, she was busy preparing for a grant proposal and I took that as a rejection (took two classes from her and scored 4.0 in each).

Another said that he didn't feel comfortable writing a good letter and that he only writes letters for students that research for him.

Recently, a professor remembered me through an online discussion board and was more than happy to write one for me (I help students with chemistry and physics problems online). I may have offended her by offering too many gifts. I think she misrepresented them as bribes, which I had no intention to do. She clearly said, "These things do not affect the way I write, and I decided to write a letter for you because I feel that I could write a strong letter". I told her it was a token of my gratitude, but I am regretting it now.

With every letter of recommendation packet I include a $20 Starbucks gift card and after they send out the letters I follow through with a box of chocolates. Except this teacher, I gave both the gift card and chocolate because I had an extra box of chocolates on me (I was going around passing out chocolates to teachers who sent out their letters and one of the professors were out of the office). I really need my 3rd letter of recommendation sent out, and I'm curious on the progress.

What do you guys think, what's the etiquette on thanking your professors. Do they take offense if you thank them early?

 

[Minnerbelle]

What do you guys think, what's the etiquette on thanking your professors. Do they take offense if you thank them early?

I generally don't give them anything until they've written the letter, and definitely never anything monetary. Especially with professors, I really don't think they appreciate getting money from students (they def didn't like it at my undergrad anyway).

Afterward, I tend to bring along a thank you card with a box of chocolates. Generally, my LORs came from people who knew me very well so bringing little thank you gifts tended to be a great way of reconnecting with them and chatting about life. The only person I didn't do this with was my PI. She's the sweetest person in the world, but I'm so deathly afraid of her. After she sent it out, I verbally thanked her when she was at her office (and nearly peed my pants), and I think I'll send her a Thank You card once I find out from my last school. It's so juvenile of me but it'll probably be a drop in her mailbox cause it would be really awkward for me to lurk at her office, hand over a card like a 5th grader asking a boy out for the first time, and then dashing away from the admin offices... sigh...

 

[variegata]

What do you guys think, what's the etiquette on thanking your professors. Do they take offense if you thank them early?

I wouldn't give anything beforehand, that just seems weird to me. I baked cookies for my people after I submitted my application. Nobody ever complains about homemade cookies.

 

[anbuitachi]

i got denied by several people..

my biochem professor said no to me cause he said he didn't know me well even though i explained that his TAs did since his TAs taught the class so all i wanted was his cosign basically... but he said no

my doctor said no even though ive been his patient for years and i shadowed him. but he also said he doesn't know me well enough.

 

[smilin1590]

The real question is how do you get to know a professor well enough to have him/her agree to write and LOR? Seeing as most schools want one from a prof. of yours, I really don't see how this is going to be possible because I feel like I don't get enough interaction with my prof's to ask them for an LOR or if I did it's most likely they would turn me down since neither of us know the other one very well.😱

 

[BlacKAT33]

I found it impossible to ask any of my profs. I never went to office hours for most of my classes because i really had nothing to ask. I prefer to just ask friends or spend a while by myself looking over things. Luckily, I had worked in labs throughout college so I ended up asking all of my PIs.


when i first saw this post i realized its rileyroos super old one!! lol aww back when rileyroo was new!! 🙂

 

[twelvetigers]

I didn't end up having any professors write my eLORs, but I dis have one that I could have asked. We're close like, lunch together, talk about the kids, friends on Facebook. Maybe you just have to find a professor that you 'click' with like that, or else one you've done some specific work for like tutoring, TAing, or doing research under. The little forms that evaluators fill out are so specific that you want whoever does them to know you WELL (and like you a lot).

 

[The Mad Penguin]

Twelvetigers is right about getting to know professors through doing work for them, that's what I did. I started out as an anonymous student out of about 200 undergrads in my mentor's class and now I'm doing a senior thesis with him and Ive known him for almost 2 years! So yes, it is possible, you just have to market yourself. Start emailing professors and asking if you can work in their lab, even if its something as menial as cleaning or doing prep work, it gets your foot in the door and shows dedication. Do it in a lab that interests you first though, maybe then it'll be more bearable 😀. Eventually, you'll get to know them well enough and they'll let you work on the bigger projects or even helm one yourself. Hope that helps!

 

[limerobin]

I forgot I posted on this about being denied an LOR....I think I just vented and then didn't want to think about it again!!

Everyone that posted was right...I am so glad she didn't write a letter for me, it would have been 'an instant application killer' as someone said. Hidden blessing I guess?! 😀

I got an LOR from a professor, but she was also the club advisor for a club I was very active in (VP actally). This worked out well for me because even though I had her in class, she got to know me well outside of the classroom - I got lucky for the professor requirement.

Anyway, my point is: don't forgot to think about professors you know outside of class. If you have a good rapport with them now, you could build upon that in time for the next application cycle. Maybe they offer a class you could take? At my school you could sign up for independent credits that basically count towards any sort of project you're working on (research, etc.) that can be approved for credit. I bet a lot of schools have that option, and you could work something out with the professor so they are your advisor for the project, and therefore establish an actual professor - student relationship.

Just an idea! It might not work for all LOR requirements but it's worth looking into IMO. Also the project will look super groovy on your application 😀

 

[littlegray]

Here's a question: I worked in a neuroscience lab for about three years. The lab director is pretty highly regarded in the field, but isn't all that sociable. The two doctoral students I worked for know me very well and have plenty of great things to say about me. Is it best to go with someone with an important title and name, but who's letter may not come off as that personal, or those who know me VERY well but technically don't even have their PhDs yet...?

 

[rileyroo]

when i first saw this post i realized its rileyroos super old one!! lol aww back when rileyroo was new!! 🙂

quit it... you're making me blush! 😀

whenever i see this thread pop up randomly, it catches me off guard. making me relive those horrible memories all over again! 😛

 

[StartingoverVet]

Here's a question: I worked in a neuroscience lab for about three years. The lab director is pretty highly regarded in the field, but isn't all that sociable. The two doctoral students I worked for know me very well and have plenty of great things to say about me. Is it best to go with someone with an important title and name, but who's letter may not come off as that personal, or those who know me VERY well but technically don't even have their PhDs yet...?

LORs help the adcom committee get to know you from another person's point of view. If the director isn't going to give any insight into your abilities or qualities then it really doesn't mean much. It is unclear whether the director knows you well or not (being unsociable doesn't mean he won't write a good letter). It would help if you could ask him what he thinks.

Otherwise, the LOR should come from someone who is in a position to evaluate your ability to succeed in and after vet school. If the doctoral students can do that in your mind then they should be fine.

 

[rileyroo]

Otherwise, the LOR should come from someone who is in a position to evaluate your ability to succeed in and after vet school. If the doctoral students can do that in your mind then they should be fine.

keep in mind that some schools have pretty strict guidelines stating from who each LOR is to be submitted by (# doctors, advisors, professors, employers). make sure you cover those bases for the schools you'll be applying to.