LOR - Postdocc vs PI

[mmchick]

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Hi SDN,

I've seen a few outdated posts on this topic, so wanted to get a fresh perspective if possible - I have been in a lab that is quite large (around 60 members) for the last 6 months and will continue to work in while I apply into this upcoming cycle; my postdocc and I recently got into a little bit of a disagreement over the weight of a PI's signature over his on an LOR I'll be requesting. My rationale is that I would prefer if he wrote it and signed it as if this experience comes up in interviews, I would end up talking about him as my mentor the most (as I work with him 100% of my time here) vs my PI who is hardly ever in lab and we only see about once a week during lab meetings (our interactions are very limited to updating him on data and experiments with his feedback). It seems more honest and upfront to me to have a letter directly from someone who can actually attest to my work ethic and character being that I spend majority of my time with him/he is my mentor throughout my research than having him draft a letter that the PI puts his name on and I cannot even attest to our relationship during an interview.

I've read some posts that have suggested the PI co-sign, which I think is where I'm leaning towards, but any additional input would also be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

 

[FelicityMD]

Have the post-doc write the letter and the PI sign/ or co-sign it. The letter will be far more meaningful with the weight of the PI behind it. It might raise a red flag if the letter were not coming from your PI/ or at least cosigned.

 

[mmchick]

Have the post-doc write the letter and the PI sign/ or co-sign it. The letter will be far more meaningful with the weight of the PI behind it. It might raise a red flag if the letter were not coming from your PI/ or at least cosigned.

Thanks for your reply. This is what my postdoc says, but if my PI signs it, this would insinuate that he wrote it, no? I wouldn't want to get stuck in a situation where the adcoms thought the PI wrote the letter and then asked about my relationship with him which is - by far - less significant than that of my postdoc. In other words, I would want it to be obvious that the postdoc wrote it considering he was the one who actually spent the time with me, though of course would want the endorsement and support of the PI... though it seems you're saying the authorship from the PI is more preferred..

 

[lalalallala]

No it would not insinuate the PI wrote it. You are not the only person in this situation - this is all very common. Have the post doc write it and ask the PI if he/she will cosign. For me, I asked the PI to write it knowing that he would ask the post docs for their comments, which he did and told me he would do, and then the PI wrote and signed it. Having the post doc write and the PI sign at the end is also good.

 

[FelicityMD]

The PI wont sign anything they wont agree with, they also know that the postdoc knows you better and are generally happy to take comments (+/- a letter draft) to help support their students. You're overthinking it. No adcom is going to ask about your relationship with the PI/postdoc.

 

[mmchick]

@FelicityMD and @lalalallala - thank you for the feedback. I will definitely take yours and postdoc's advice when the time comes. I must say, although it appears so obvious to everyone else that this is the correct way to do things, it really wasn't for me - the whole thing is still strange and seems oddly unethical to have someone else write your entire LOR to then have someone with more "weight" behind their name as the primary signer. To me, this does signify that they wrote it, or at least had a part in articulating the characteristics of the recipient on that letter, which is not the case here.. To me, it seemed more ethical to take the loss with not having the PI as primary author and to have the postdoc own what he wrote because he was truly the one who would be doing the complete characterization. If you have a close relationship with your PI, by all means, that's a win - but it just seems a bit deceitful to take the benefit of a big name without that person really knowing you to the true extent that the letter suggests. Sure, it could be a bit of overthinking, but I always thought upfront transparency was the best policy. It would seem that this practice is relatively common however, so I will follow advice of others who have more of an idea regarding it.

Thanks for the responses again.

 

[Med Ed]

It would seem that this practice is relatively common however, so I will follow advice of others who have more of an idea regarding it.

It is also a fairly common practice for a reference (usually a PI) to have the applicant write his/her own letter, and then sign it after reading it. The signature on the bottom is more of an attestation than a claim of authorship.

 

[lalalallala]

@FelicityMD and @lalalallala - thank you for the feedback. I will definitely take yours and postdoc's advice when the time comes. I must say, although it appears so obvious to everyone else that this is the correct way to do things, it really wasn't for me - the whole thing is still strange and seems oddly unethical to have someone else write your entire LOR to then have someone with more "weight" behind their name as the primary signer. To me, this does signify that they wrote it, or at least had a part in articulating the characteristics of the recipient on that letter, which is not the case here.. To me, it seemed more ethical to take the loss with not having the PI as primary author and to have the postdoc own what he wrote because he was truly the one who would be doing the complete characterization. If you have a close relationship with your PI, by all means, that's a win - but it just seems a bit deceitful to take the benefit of a big name without that person really knowing you to the true extent that the letter suggests. Sure, it could be a bit of overthinking, but I always thought upfront transparency was the best policy. It would seem that this practice is relatively common however, so I will follow advice of others who have more of an idea regarding it.

Thanks for the responses again.

I appreciate your honesty OP but since this is so well known that this is the way things are done, I think you should try to feel okay about it. It is true that many PIs have the applicant write their own letter or ask the post doc to write a draft and then they’ll sign it. This is often done because of how busy they are. They would not sign anything they didn’t believe and the adcoms know this. The PIs and adcoms don’t think it’s unethical, so I think it’s best for you to feel confident in that.

 

[mmchick]

@Med Ed and @lalalallala - agreed! If the general consensus on both ends is that it is an accepted and normal practice, then I suppose I can get behind that. Thank you all for the insight.