LORs... Less is more?

[anotherbusybee]

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Hi!

Question: Potentially, if I ask for LORs from all the professionals with which I've had extensive experience (as in, I've had a regular relationship with them for at least 6 months-1 year), I could have 3 DVM's and 2 PhD's = total 5.

I remember from my high school days that it wasn't a smart idea to send an excess of LORs simply because a plethora of "just okay" LORs wouldn't contribute to your application. In fact, I was told it would hurt it. The thinking was... if, after 4+ reviewers, you still don't have a FANTASTIC(!) LOR, you probably aren't that amazing to begin with. So, I was told to err on the side of safety and simply provide the minimum amount, ensuring that all of them are as strong as possible.

I'm wondering now... Does this same mantra hold true for vet school LORs? At a minimum, I will definitely be including:
- research PI
- professor (I need to include this one because my science GPA is not strong, but I did very well in this class and it is an upper-division science course. I also developed a very good relationship w/ this professor and the TA)
- DVM... but I can't decide who to ask.

I was only envisioning sending out 3 LORs, but I see here that a lot of people send out 5+. FWIW, I'm planning to apply to schools in the West, like UC Davis, Western, Oregon, Washington, etc.

 

[hopefulinva]

It doesn't really matter how many you send, but some schools will only look at the first 3 that make it to them. Many of these schools also require a letter from a DVM, so if you think you can arrange it so that at least one of your DVMs is in those three, then go for it.

Also - Is this your first time applying? VMCAS uses an eLOR system, which is all electronic. I think a couple of places will accept a hardcopy LOR instead of an eLOR but most places prefer the electronic version. =)

 

[orca2011]

It kind of depends on the school really. Some will only read the 3 required ones and will ask you to tell them which letters you want them to read. Others are more than willing to read more. I submitted three LORs last year and 4 this year, one of which was a vet from the cycle before who I felt wrote a really strong letter for me. I probably could have used the same three people for the first cycle, but schools like Penn and Tufts told me to select 3 new people this year because they would read those in addition to relooking at the ones from the previous year. So for those two schools, I had a total of 6 LORs since they carried previous applications forward. CSU I only had three because they did this whole ETS Personal Potential Index thing where I had to pick 3 people to fill out that form and then they would only read the 3 letters associated with the PPI recommendations.

I'm honestly not sure if the extra letter helped or hurt me this year. I haven't had any file reviews yet because the schools I applied to all said to wait until after April 15th to schedule an appointment. If I find out later, I can definitely let you know though.

 

[Cypress]

I had 6 total (the max allowed) - all fit a different role in my life, 2 professors, 2 vets (worked with for different lengths of time), committee member from a committee I chaired, and a personal/professional from a woman that works at my family farm. Each person knew me in a different way and I think added depth to my application. My GPA is on the very low end of the scale so I needed to take every opportunity to show who I was to prove my qualifications.

I have never been told that submitting 6 letters was a bad idea or that it would hurt me. I think personally it was one of the things that strengthened my application and led to my acceptance.

Its early in the game so you can always email the schools you are thinking about applying to and see what they have to say.

 

[bigkittinteef]

I was told by my department head (a DVM that also assist with admissions at RVC) that excessive letters can be a red flag. A sign of overcompensation is how he put it. I don't know if this is true or not but I followed his advice and my app was seemingly well received. I'm sure in most cases, the adcoms will just read through the first 3 regardless of how many more you send. They just have so much info to go through!

 

[bearito]

During my app review with Washington State, it was suggested that I submit more than the 3 minimum next time if I don't get in off the waiting list. They will read as many as VMCAS lets you submit (6 I think) apparently. Not sure at all about other schools.

 

[mooshagen]

I would send as many as possible. And like others have said, have them be varied. Although the advice from all vet schools was to get as many vets to write for you as possible. Sounds like you've got that covered. I had three vets write for me, just like you. Schools also told me that no more than one person who can speak on your academics is needed. I would not ask anyone to write for me who I thought would only write a "mediocre" letter. Picking my writers was a pretty detailed process... I wanted all my letters to be as good as possible.

 

[Megascops Asio]

I remember from my high school days that it wasn't a smart idea to send an excess of LORs simply because a plethora of "just okay" LORs wouldn't contribute to your application. In fact, I was told it would hurt it. The thinking was... if, after 4+ reviewers, you still don't have a FANTASTIC(!) LOR, you probably aren't that amazing to begin with. So, I was told to err on the side of safety and simply provide the minimum amount, ensuring that all of them are as strong as possible.

Well, I think this is the most important part of your question. If I was worried about submitting too many "just okay" LORs, I'd be more worried about their content and quality, not their quantity. Make sure you have fantastic LORs, and it won't be a problem how many you submit! 🙂

 

[Jamr0ckin]

After being rejected 3 times, during my 3rd file review I was told that I needed to submit letters from DVMs only. Previously, I had used the DVM I worked with for 12 years, and 2 advisers from each major.


So, I submitted 4 LORs. The same DVM, a Emergency DVM I worked with for 10 months while attending college, and the college vet who was also a professor of mine, and then a biology professor that is a DVM whom I also worked for.

I was still rejected from all my OOS schools, but just interviewed at UTK, my IS.

 

[Emiloo4]

I submitted 5, only because UTK required 5. SO all the other schools I applied to got all 5 as well (some only look at 3 as previously stated). Some schools let you actually choose which 3 you want if you submit more, others just take the first three. If UTK wasn't on my app, I would have just submitted three. But the 5 obviously didn't hurt me (even though I never read a single one so I have no idea what they say ). I was accepted at 2 schools, waitlisted at 4, and declined an interview at UTK (so much for needing those 5 eLors) 😉. Hope that helps.

 

[Angelo84]

I would check with the schools you are applying to-some want one vet, one professor, one anything, some two vets, one professor. So make sure you have your basis covered. I think I ended up with 4 letters (not counting cornell which required a letter from each experience) Two vets, two professors.

 

[orcagirl]

I only submitted three: 2 from professors (a PhD and a DVM/PhD) and 1 from a clinical DVM. When I got a call from Wisconsin I was told that my two letters from the professors basically said that those letters said the schools would be fools not to admit me. You really only need 3 stellar letters depending on the school. With only three I was accepted into seven different schools. I think it's more quality rather than quantity. I think the people who write letters more often probably write better letters. Just my $0.02.

 

[Emiloo4]

I would check with the schools you are applying to-some want one vet, one professor, one anything, some two vets, one professor. So make sure you have your basis covered. I think I ended up with 4 letters (not counting cornell which required a letter from each experience) Two vets, two professors.

^^^ this is a very good point. Some even wanted like a manager or a supervisor (can't remember which school I applied to that required it). You can find it here as a reference, but definitely check directly with each school....
http://www.aavmc.org/data/files/vmcas/aavmc school evaluation requirement chart_2012_final.pdf

 

[SnowyRox]

I submitted three because that was the min & max at most places I applied.

1: DVM I shadowed for 2 years, mostly watching surgery and appointments, but helping out when they were shortstaffed.

2. Biology professor, also the head of the department, who led a challenging class that I had to work really hard to do well. Did not receive an A in her class, but chose her because she saw my work ethic.

3. Biology professor, led my study abroad program, took an intro bio class from him, worked with him in a research lab. Got As in all of his classes and felt that he knew me well enough to write a fantastic letter.

One of my main considerations in who to ask for letters was whether I knew they were good writers. I worked with 2 DVMs, and one of which was a great writer and the other was a terrible writer. Both were fantastic vets who taught me a lot, but I picked the one who was a great writer to write my letter.

I was a good student in undergrad and very involved, so I could have gotten several more great letters from professors. However, I knew the ones I sent were great and didn't feel the need to send more.

 

[RxyBrtn]

I submitted 6 (and applied to all the west coast schools w/ the exception of Davis). I feel fortunate that I have quite a few colleagues and mentors that i had the utmost confidence in to represent me well, and that I've had the variety of experiences to back up their recommendation (I'm currently in grad school). I had 3 veterinarians, 2 PhD's (one being my boss and advisor) and a colleague that I've been closely working on my research with. I had 2 other individuals (both DVMs) that I would've liked to ask as well but chose the ones I did based on our relationship and my confidence in their ability to really represent me well. Plus I felt that having members of the veterinary, research and academia worlds was essential as I am a part of all three. I wholeheartedly agree that it is about quality not quantity. The LORs takes a lot of thought from both parties. You want to make sure that you really do have a relationship with each individual you ask so that they can write you a strong, truthful and personable letter. Having written and read letters of recommendation myself, it's very easy for committees to distinguish "formula-written" letters and ones that were written for that individual alone. Also definitely check school requirements and consider having a ranking of which letters may represent you best in case a school only allows 3.

I also did some research about waiving your rights to view your letters. Most of what I got is that it doesn't really matter to most schools, however, some did look to see if you waived them or not. The advice I got from several individuals was to waive your rights. And I agreed. Again, I think it speaks to your relationships with your recommenders that you know you have a solid relationship with them to trust and not worry about what they have to say about you. It was very easy for me to press the waive rights button, and I felt like that confirmed that I made the right choices about who I asked to represent me.

It's definitely a lot to think about! Good luck!

 

[Rocky922]

I submitted 5, only because UTK required 5. SO all the other schools I applied to got all 5 as well (some only look at 3 as previously stated). Some schools let you actually choose which 3 you want if you submit more, others just take the first three. If UTK wasn't on my app, I would have just submitted three. But the 5 obviously didn't hurt me (even though I never read a single one so I have no idea what they say ). I was accepted at 2 schools, waitlisted at 4, and declined an interview at UTK (so much for needing those 5 eLors) 😉. Hope that helps.

UTK only requires 3... Where did you hear 5?

From their website:
Also, it is your responsibility to request a minimum of three (3) VMCAS Evaluation Forms & Letters of recommendation to be submitted electronically (eLOR) in a timely fashion.


I only submitted 3 and just had my interview there

 

[anotherbusybee]

Well, shoot. I still don't know.. Haha! Thank you for all your input. I've thought about seriously, have looked at the school requirements, and still find myself pinballing between 3 v.s. 4 v.s. 5. I looked at the chart, and I think I should include at least two DVMs. This is the only negotiable number. My research PI and my academic prof LOR are non-negotiable, as I really need them (and their fantastic writing skills) to boost my application.

I guess I answered my own question, huh? I guess I will send 4-5 but rank them. Can you do this ranking on VMCAS manually or do they place them in order of which one was first turned in? THANK YOU everyone!

 

[Emiloo4]

UTK only requires 3... Where did you hear 5?

From their website:
Also, it is your responsibility to request a minimum of three (3) VMCAS Evaluation Forms & Letters of recommendation to be submitted electronically (eLOR) in a timely fashion.


I only submitted 3 and just had my interview there

I probably just got a school confused.... maybe NCSU?? I applied to a bunch lol.

 

[Rocky922]

I probably just got a school confused.... maybe NCSU?? I applied to a bunch lol.

Haha okay I got really nervous when I first saw your post and I thought maybe they accidentally interviewed me and I went all the way there for nothing! That's why I had to go back and check

 

[Fly Racing]

The vmcas site did list (and still does under last years stuff) UTK as requiring 5 LORs. I called to double check and it was indeed a typo. Only 3 required.

 

[Emiloo4]

Ok, yeah that's where I got my info from. Guess I didn't need those extra two people hahaha! Should've checked the UTK website more closely 😳😀

 

[LetItSnow]

There are only two things that matter: 1) meeting the school's requirements, and 2) making sure every LOR you have rocks.

Three super-awesome LORs trumps 6 mediocre ones every time. Don't kid yourself - you can't make up for so-so LORs by increasing the number you submit.

 

[Minnerbelle]

Don't kid yourself - you can't make up for so-so LORs by increasing the number you submit.

soooo true... what's worse than 1 person saying you're just another pre-vet student who's nothing all that spectacular? 6 people saying you're mediocre.