low gpa + old(er): SMP or Caribbean

[chirodocjrd]

I have been running this through my brain for several months now and am leaning one way but would like some advice from anyone willing to chime in on my situation. I've read through several threads on similar situations but still wanted to post and get some insight from those that have been around or are in similar situations themselves.

Background:
I am a 40 year old ex-chiropractor who just quit my practice to retake a few courses to try and raise my gpa in hopes of attending medical school. My ug gpa was about a 2.6 and my chiro gpa was about a 2.5...yes, horrible! I did very well the last 3 quarters of chiro school receiving a 4.0, 3.5, 3.75. but the first 2 years were bad. I also scored very well on the chiro board exams. I received C's in chem 2 and physics previously so I tried to retake them this semester but I could do no better than a C overall so the med school admissions counsler said it was bettter to drop them than get a C or lower. I am still in one other retake and getting an A. My next semester will consist of 2 retakes in ug bio and 2-500 level classes, all of in which I will excel. My sgpa will be about a 3.0-3.1 after next semester and my nsGPA will still be about a 2.68.
I would like to practice interventional/diagnostic radiology, surgery or possibly anesthesia and I am not really keen on Family practice at all. I haven't taken the mcat and I understand that will have a big impact but let's just assume that I get the average of a 27-30 when I take it in March. I have good EC's, no real shadow experience but I've worked along side Mds, DOs, PAs, etc and alot of volunteer hours.

My dilema:
I am unsure if it would be in my best interests to go to a Caribbean medical school or attempt to get into a special master's program and attempt to get into a US medical school. I would prefer to attend an MD school but I will apply to both MD and DO schools to increase my chances of acceptance. I do not know if my gpa would prevent me from getting into a special master's, the schools that I have talked to say that a 3.0 is the minimum and their class average is usually a 3.+, etc. A few are lower (2.5-2.75) like Barry but it's 2 yrs usually from what I've seen. I am concerned that my low gpas will lower my chances of a US med school acceptance drastically. I am personally broke, my federal loans are maxed out and can't get more unless I am able to get a grad plus loan and I can't get private loans approved due to some past issues (no cosigner either) so the idea of taking more ug classes is not an option. As far as I know, neither is a post bac as they are for people that have not had the hard sciences like I have. Being 40 (41 when start smp) plays into my decision as well. Let's just assume that I get a 1 yr smp, apply and get in the next yr=43, out of med school at 47 and residency at 52/53. Is that too late to start and would resdiency progams look at a 47 yr old and want him knowing that he has only 10-15 yrs of practice ahead of him? Another situation is that my dad was just dx with lung, pancrease and thyroid cancer (meeting with the surgeon today) so I am thinking that I should be in the area or at least the us to help out if I am needed.


If I go the Caribbean route I'd start in May 2011 at 41 and be done before I'm 50 with residency if it all goes back to back. But the cost is greater and the type of residency could be limited to IM or FP theoretically. Then again, living on a tropical island for a couple years would be nice


I'd appreciate any insight that you may have. Thank you in advance for your time and effort to answer.

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[Lazarus]

Have you thought of PA school? What is the goal of this pursuit? If it is to practice medicine and help people PA would be the way to go.

 

[chirodocjrd]

Yes, I looked into PA school but decided it wasn't for me. I prefer the autonomy that is given in the MD role. I understand that there are various types of roles PA take on but I still prefer becoming an MD.

 

[DrMidlife]

With an undergrad GPA of 2.6, you'll need more than an SMP. Your chiro grades don't matter.

To do US MD, generally, you'd need to raise your undergrad GPA to at least 3.0, get above average on the MCAT (32+), and then do an SMP. Note that US MD schools don't forgive an old grade on a retake, which means you need to do 2 more years of undergrad at a 4.0 (or 3 at a 3.7).

To do US DO, generally, you'd need to do the above as well, possibly without the SMP, possibly with less undergrad if you do retakes. DO schools might have more respect for your chiro experience than MD, but neither will be too excited about it.

To do Carib, you probably just need to take the MCAT. We had a visiting professor from Ross at my school last week, who said that there were 440 students, twice a year, taking gross anatomy. That says to me that Ross is making money!!! Ross is making far fewer doctors, though, because of the fail-out rate. Buyer beware. (Presumably that 440*2=880/yr includes vet students, but still.)

Starting at 40 means you don't have time to make any (more) mistakes. If you're going to go for it, start being the most desirable candidate a med school has ever seen - right now.

Best of luck to you.

 

[chirodocjrd]

Thank you for the reply drmidlife, I appreciate the insight. I agree with your assessment but the problem is the lack of finances to do any undergrad classes as the graduate plus loan is my only option.

I have some great news! I spoke with two medical schools today. One admission counselor said that if I enter an SMP and take 20 pure science credits (histology, anatomy, etc. NOT a public healt type program) that the admission committee would only look at those 20 credits for my sGPA. I belive that the other school had said the same thing when I spoke with them a couple if years ago but the person that I spoke with wasn't sure. The counselor also suggested staying away from SMPs in which the student takes classes along with current medical students because the classes tend to be curved/graded harder. She also said to make sure that the program gives grades and not high pass, pass, etc. to show a GPA. Of course, this is just one admissions committe member's opinion so take from it what you wish.

I hope that this gives several of you in the same/similar boat some hope.

 

[DrMidlife]

Thank you for the reply drmidlife, I appreciate the insight. I agree with your assessment but the problem is the lack of finances to do any undergrad classes as the graduate plus loan is my only option.

I have some great news! I spoke with two medical schools today. One admission counselor said that if I enter an SMP and take 20 pure science credits (histology, anatomy, etc. NOT a public healt type program) that the admission committee would only look at those 20 credits for my sGPA. I belive that the other school had said the same thing when I spoke with them a couple if years ago but the person that I spoke with wasn't sure. The counselor also suggested staying away from SMPs in which the student takes classes along with current medical students because the classes tend to be curved/graded harder. She also said to make sure that the program gives grades and not high pass, pass, etc. to show a GPA. Of course, this is just one admissions committe member's opinion so take from it what you wish.

I hope that this gives several of you in the same/similar boat some hope.

Come on over to the postbac forum for SMP info.

Now, what I define as a "good" SMP is one where you're sitting in class with med students, graded against a similar curve. It's supposed to be hard: it's an audition, a demonstration that you're med school material despite your undergrad performance. A "good" SMP is also defined by its excellent, published success rate in getting its students into med school. Such as: Gtown, EVMS, Cincinnati, Tulane ACP, Temple ACMS. All but Gtown accept a huge number of their own SMP students into the host med school. These programs all have minimum GPAs over 3.0 (except EVMS which has a 2.75 minimum - imho for locals). Also for these programs you need a competitive MCAT score in hand before you apply - because admissions are competitive.

That said, you can always find a program willing to take your (grad plus) money. But please be a smart shopper. The SMP has no power to convince a non-host med school that your SMP performance should overrule your undergrad numbers. The SMP has no power over AMCAS/AACOMAS application reporting, which include all your undergrad grades.

PM me with your state of residence & I'll clue you in further if you like.

Best of luck to you.

 

[TriagePreMed]

With an undergrad GPA of 2.6, you'll need more than an SMP. Your chiro grades don't matter.

I disagree with you on the Chiro grades. It is a graduate program, so if anything, it shows he didn't have improvement over time.

OP - Consider the financial side of all this. To make it into a US MD program, you'll need at least a 3.2, a 32+ MCAT and an SMP with top scores. This will cost you a fortune.

I'm going to be a bit more blunt and ask: What makes you think you can handle medical school, since you were a poor student before? I'm not trying to judge you. People change and become better students. I'm one of those, but I had to be serious and honest with myself about this.

Honestly, I think you should go the PA route. We all value independence, but even as a doctor, you could end up working at a hospital still having to answer to someone.

 

[Prncssbuttercup]

If the PA route isn't for you, I'd say stick with trying the Caribbean route. Only St. George's is really *more* expensive, and that is only if you consider state schools. If time is of the essence to you, which it is to me, it is your fastest route. However, in the Caribbean, you do NOT have the luxury of slacking as you have done with all of your past schooling. If you can't get a residency, you are stuck like a coworker of mine, an MD with no license to back it up (she dropped out of her psych residency @Harvard and couldn't get re-matched), and a crap-ton of loans with a crappy job. Go to the international schools section of the forum, and ask some questions over there... But again, it gets you the degree, but you have to get the residency... FWIW, St. Georges lists all their matches, and they have matches in pretty much everything... the other schools I wasn't looking as closely... either way... Keep your eye on the prize and make it happen...

 

[chirodocjrd]

Dr. Midlife: Thank you, I will pm you when I'm done posting here.

Triage: Yes and no about the chiro grades. Both admissions counslers pretty much blew off those grades and asked me if I had taken classes since I graduated from chiro school. They seemed to treat it like a second undergrad degree. I sure it will weigh against me in the admission process but one admin counsler has my transcripts and says that a high smp gpa will over ride my previous sceince gpas. I am looking into these two state schools mostly so I'll put more weight into what they are saying and plan to go the smp route.
Yes it will be alot of money and time but I believe that I can do well. I recently took two national board exams and scored very high on both boards. One was a cumulation of all the info from chiro school 9 years ago. It had mock patients with a few chiro cases but mostly medical cases...physical exams and diagnose cases including 1 or 2 tumors, ruptured achellies tendon, Reiters syndrome, some neurological cases and an pancrease case if i remember correctly. There was also 10 diagnostic imaging stations and some chiro adjustment stations of course. Doing so well on the boards and learning how to study, basically for the first time, showed me that I have matured, learned how I need to study and can excel in the level of material that I will encounter in both the smp and in medical school. I don't feel that being a PA is my calling, if I gave up trying for MD school and went PA I know that I would feel just as i do with being a DC.

SSB: That's actually my fall back plan if I don't get into a US School. I will apply to SMPs this winter/spring as well as Caribbean med schools in case I don't get into any smps. After the smp I'll apply to my state schools, and other US schools, and see if I get accepted. If not, I'll go the Caribbean route alot more in debt but knowing that at least i tried. I appreciate the support.

Thanks to everyone who responded and offered advice. I love how this community comes together and offers help and support so readily.