Low MCAT... why do people automatically suggest DO?

[superfan56]

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Frankly I find it hard to believe that anyone got in with a 19. Would you be good enough to state which school accepted him?

yeah, kind of agree here. many schools have cut off's of 23 and some around 20 as well.

 

[45408]

I'm guessing the average MCAT score for allopathic programs is around a 28? Maybe even 27, possibly 29 bu i doubt.

Stop pulling our legs now. You really knew that it's almost a 31 now, right?

 

[Vihsadas]

Stop pulling our legs now. You really knew that it's almost a 31 now, right?

I think we passed that 'almost' point a while ago. 31.2 I believe.

 

[ChubbyChaser]

I think we passed that 'almost' point a while ago. 31.2 I believe.

only for caucasians. 30.8 overall.

 

[Vihsadas]

only for caucasians. 30.8 overall.

Oh my bad.

Damn you statistics!! 😛

 

[uglyjohn]

This is a hypothetical scenario, so relax, lay down your weapons for a moment.

Let's say that I went to a medical school somewhere in China and learned western/conventional medicine and eastern medicine (herbs, acupuncture, etc.) as an additional treatment modality with a holistic philosophy. I graduated with a DX (or some Chinese characters) degree.

Then I went to the United States, passed the USMLE, finished a MD residency and call myself Dr. John Smith, MD ('cuz DX or some weird Chinese characters don't mean anything here).

Assuming what I have said so far is correct, technically can a DO who has gone thru the same process petition to change his title to MD? I'm not putting DO's at the same level as IMG's nor suggesting DO's would want to change their title so don't get me wrong.

 

[Lokhtar]

I think you'd really have to be drinking some crazy Kool-Aid to think that DO schools, on average, don't have lower stats. Here are the facts:

1. Virtually every MD school has higher stats for acceptance than DO schools. Lately, the top DO schools have met the standard for lower MD schools, but that's it.
2. MDs and DO do the same thing, for the most part, in a clinical setting.
3. As a USMD, you will have more opportunity to specialize. In terms of competitive residencies, it's USMD > USDO > Carrib. MD
4. Many people do go to D.O. because they did not get into M.D. That doesn't mean the end product is different, but you'd have to be stupid to deny that this happens.
5. And finally, who cares? You'll have the same practice rights, and you will also have ample opportunities to match into specialties like Dermatology (about 90-100 DO only derm spots). It won't be as high a chance as MD, and some fields don't have a DO counterpart so you'll have to compete in the MD residencies, but its not insurmountable.

Calling the cutoffs 'unfair' is simply ludicrous. Every school, including DO, weeds out students by scores. DO simply weeds them out at a lower cutoff point. As competition increases, DO schools are also increasing the cutoff points. It's natural, and far from 'unfair'.

 

[BlackSails]

Assuming what I have said so far is correct, technically can a DO who has gone thru the same process petition to change his title to MD? I'm not putting DO's at the same level as IMG's nor suggesting DO's would want to change their title so don't get me wrong.

No, you cant change your degree between equal but nonequivalent ones. MDs are equal to, but not equivalent to DOs. This is proven by the fact that MDs cannot to DO residencies. A doctor with an MBBS, since this degree is equal and equivalent to an MD, could put MD after this name after completing residency here.

 

[fisko82]

Frankly I find it hard to believe that anyone got in with a 19. Would you be good enough to state which school accepted him?

I don't know whether VictorsLilsecret's story is true or not, but it's certainly not out the realm of possibilities, especially at schools where the average mcat ranges from a 22-25. http://www.kcom.edu/faculty/chamberlain/ranmcat.htm

 

[Lokhtar]

No, you cant change your degree between equal but nonequivalent ones. MDs are equal to, but not equivalent to DOs. This is proven by the fact that MDs cannot to DO residencies. A doctor with an MBBS, since this degree is equal and equivalent to an MD, could put MD after this name after completing residency here.

Hmm, I don't disagree with you but I am not sure if anyone has tried it?

Here is the legal stuff (for NY at least):

§6529. Power of board of regents regarding certain physicians.
Notwithstanding any provision of law to the contrary, the board of regents is authorized, in its discretion, to confer the degree of doctor of medicine (M.D.) upon physicians who are licensed pursuant to section sixty-five hundred twenty-four or sixty-five hundred twenty-eight of this chapter. Each applicant shall pay a fee of three hundred dollars to the education department for the issuance of such degree.

Well, what is section 6524?

§6524. Requirements for a professional license.
To qualify for a license as a physician, an applicant shall fulfill the following requirements:

Application: file an application with the department;
Education: have received an education, including a degree of doctor of medicine, "M.D.", or doctor of osteopathy, "D.O.", or equivalent degree in accordance with the commissioner's regulations;

They specifically say DOs can get a professional lience, and say that they can have then be granted the title of MD. Again, not sure if anyone has tried it, but if someone wanted to, they could make a legal case for it (in NY at least).


http://www.op.nysed.gov/article131.htm

 

[lacesoutdan]

Lately, the top DO schools have met the standard for lower MD schools...

Good post, but I'd like to see some statistics before I believe this.

Frankly I find it hard to believe that anyone got in with a 19. Would you be good enough to state which school accepted him?

Really? I'll bet a couple people at the least-competative DO schools get in with this score and high GPAs every year.

 

[Lokhtar]

Good post, but I'd like to see some statistics before I believe this.

Howard seems to have about 3.4/25. The two schools in Puerto Rico seem to have even lower scores. I know Western (DO school) now averages 28. We'll wait until this year's scores for all schools come out.

 

[scowdeva]

Howard seems to have about 3.4/25. The two schools in Puerto Rico seem to have even lower scores. I know Western (DO school) now averages 28. We'll wait until this year's scores for all schools come out.

I also posted to this regard earlier in the thread:

MSUCOM (DO): averages for LAST YEAR'S CLASS were 3.5 and a 28 (per their website, official class stats)

Howard: averages same year, 3.37 and 25 (MSAR)
Morehouse: averages same year, 3.46 and 26 (MSAR)
Meharry: averages same year, 3.25 and 25 (MSAR)

There are a couple more DOs with stats that are pretty close to MSUCOM's if not higher, but you have to look them up individually and I dont have time right now. If anyone cares, I could post them later. The gap is slowly closing between MD and DO schools, as DOs are starting to attract more higher ranked students while the lowest tier MD are losing them.

 

[167649]

I think you'd really have to be drinking some crazy Kool-Aid to think that DO schools, on average, don't have lower stats. Here are the facts:

1. Virtually every MD school has higher stats for acceptance than DO schools. Lately, the top DO schools have met the standard for lower MD schools, but that's it.
2. MDs and DO do the same thing, for the most part, in a clinical setting.
3. As a USMD, you will have more opportunity to specialize. In terms of competitive residencies, it's USMD > USDO > Carrib. MD
4. Many people do go to D.O. because they did not get into M.D. That doesn't mean the end product is different, but you'd have to be stupid to deny that this happens.
5. And finally, who cares? You'll have the same practice rights, and you will also have ample opportunities to match into specialties like Dermatology (about 90-100 DO only derm spots). It won't be as high a chance as MD, and some fields don't have a DO counterpart so you'll have to compete in the MD residencies, but its not insurmountable.

Calling the cutoffs 'unfair' is simply ludicrous. Every school, including DO, weeds out students by scores. DO simply weeds them out at a lower cutoff point. As competition increases, DO schools are also increasing the cutoff points. It's natural, and far from 'unfair'.

Agreed here, but more like:
3) USMD>USDO>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>CarribeanMD>"Other" MD

Your career is what you make of it, not what your degree makes of it. If you are a DO and capable of crushing the USMLE's, there is little stopping you from doing so and then landing an allo residency over an MD who scored less than you did.

Let's leave it at this before it gets ugly.

 

[Harry Bahgina]

I think this Victorslilsecret girl is FOS, and should be banned.

Your avatar is my ideal future ex-wife!

 

[ryandote]

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[McLovinMD]

I also posted to this regard earlier in the thread:

MSUCOM (DO): averages for LAST YEAR'S CLASS were 3.5 and a 28 (per their website, official class stats)

Howard: averages same year, 3.37 and 25 (MSAR)
Morehouse: averages same year, 3.46 and 26 (MSAR)
Meharry: averages same year, 3.25 and 25 (MSAR)

There are a couple more DOs with stats that are pretty close to MSUCOM's if not higher, but you have to look them up individually and I dont have time right now. If anyone cares, I could post them later. The gap is slowly closing between MD and DO schools, as DOs are starting to attract more higher ranked students while the lowest tier MD are losing them.

Please tell me you understand the difference in selection factors between these three MD schools and the other MD schools before a whole new flame war begins...

 

[lacesoutdan]

MSUCOM (DO): averages for LAST YEAR'S CLASS were 3.5 and a 28 (per their website, official class stats)

Where did you see this on the website? Not saying you're not right, but all I can find for average MCAT is "26-27" here:

http://www.com.msu.edu/admissions/evaluation.html

Howard: averages same year, 3.37 and 25 (MSAR)
Morehouse: averages same year, 3.46 and 26 (MSAR)
Meharry: averages same year, 3.25 and 25 (MSAR)

Hmmm...what do these three schools and only these three schools have in common?

 

[Lokhtar]

Please tell me you understand the difference in selection factors between these three MD schools and the other MD schools before a whole new flame war begins...

Yup. But regardless of the preference given to minority candidates, those stats are still representative of the incoming class.

In any case, the better DO schools have about 3.5/28 as their stats this year, which is lower than most M.D. schools - I don't think anyone is disputing this. But then again, unless you are arguing that incoming stats dictate something about the eventual end product, it means nothing. Because, there is a huge difference between low and high tier MD as well, and the MD entering class now and ten years ago (so maybe you should tell your attending that you're going to be better doctors than they were, on average 😛).

 

[A18Devil]

some people will choose to go DO over MD just because the school is closer to thier home.

 

[McLovinMD]

Yup. But regardless of the preference given to minority candidates, those stats are still representative of the incoming class.

Of course they are, but those stats certainly don't indicate that the gap in MCAT and gpa is closing between MD and DO schools....those three specific schools have always had significantly lower matriculant stats than other MD schools. The truth is that average MCAT and gpa for MD and DO schools both are increasing. I doubt it is the case that more competitive students are opting for DO over "low tier" MD schools, but rather that as overall numbers increase, applicants who would have been statistically competitive at MD schools in the past are falling in the range where DO schools may be their best option.

 

[167649]

My personal equation is somewhere along the lines of:

Stewart>USMD>Acupuncturists U.<DO<=CaribMD+ForeignMD

www.stewartmed.org

Yeah sorry I forgot it was the #1 school in the nation.

Stewart>Harvard>JHU

 

[J1515]

But you didn't cite anything like that...i read the abstracts of all the studies on the first page (the ones I had access to thru my pubmed account) and none showed a difference when properly controlled. You can't just say the studies exist and then call me ignorant. Please, teach me!

The burden of proof is on OMT to show that the sneaky-sweet techniques give a benefit that good ol' massage doesn't.

Until then... crap.

PS - let me point out that the far and away majority of DO training is identical in awesome-ness to MD training. It's just the whacky OMT/sublaxation crap that claims to fix MEDICAL problems instead of just structural problems that is a waste of time.


EDIT: And I'm out for the night. And maybe the week. I'm a little behind on the ol' lecture podcasts...

DO here. A few things on your point of view:

1 - DOs tend to have lower MCATs and/or GPAs than MDs entering medical school. People can make up all kinds of reasons as to why that is - who cares. The important thing that people seem to ignore is that we are taught the same stuff and if you can't handle it (whether at an MD or DO school) then you won't become a doctor, period. For people who truly believe in OMM (and that is their right) they spend more time focusing on it and become good at it, and for the rest who don't care either way or just see it as an inconvenience, they just do what is required of them. We used and read through the same typical textbooks allopathic schools use.

2 - Please don't comment on what OMM is or how it is learned if you don't know. We never once learned about subluxations or what they were (except in the orthopedic sense). We had one or two lectures total during the first 2 years on "alternative medicine - herbal use, acupunture, homeopathy" so we knew what it was when patients talked about it.

3 - The OMM we learned was for musculoskeletal use or to relieve the symptoms of pain - ie: a patient with a partially herniated lumbar disc scheduled for surgery next week comes in today with terrible pain, what can you do to relieve it? Nobody ever taught us that OMM cures diabetes, cancer, or any other non-musculoskeletal problem. We learned some nonsense in my eyes (ie: cranial), but some of the techniques and tests we learned are used by physical therapists and orthopedists as well. Again, please don't comment on OMM teachings if you don't know how it is taught.

4 - Show me a stat that says X # of osteopathic students applied to dermatology residencies and only Y % got in. DOs do have their own residencies. Chances are, in general, the student with the undergrad 3.0 and 24 on the MCAT who says they want to be a dermatologist won't be at the top of their class and won't score in the 90th percentile on their boards, be it in MD or DO school. During 2nd year, our class of 300 was polled as to how many of us wanted to go into dermatology and 2, yes 2 people raised their hands. I love when people say "well if two students, an MD and a DO apply to residency X with equal stats..." You show me two people with the same stats, same personality, same upbringing, and same story as to why they made their life decisions and I will give you every cent currently in my bank account.

5 - Did you choose your doctor by looking them up in the yellow pages? Or were you walking down the street and saw a sign in front of their practice and just decided to go there? You get patients by referrals, consultations in the hospital, and word of mouth. The layperson who is being evaluated for episodes of dyspnia or a lung abcess is concerned about their health. You and some of the people in the pre-allo forum are healthy and are concerned about how others will view you. Two totally different thought processes.

 

[McLovinMD]

Because, there is a huge difference between low and high tier MD as well, and the MD entering class now and ten years ago (so maybe you should tell your attending that you're going to be better doctors than they were, on average 😛).

Agreed. I don't think anyone is arguing that numbers are any indication of the end product, but simply that there is a significant difference between average stats of DO matriculants and average stats of MD matriculants. Thus people will naturally suggest the DO route if someone has numbers that may make it difficult to gain admission to MD schools.

 

[Lokhtar]

Agreed. I don't think anyone is arguing that numbers are any indication of the end product, but simply that there is a significant difference between average stats of DO matriculants and average stats of MD matriculants. Thus people will naturally suggest the DO route if someone has numbers that may make it difficult to gain admission to MD schools.

Yup. Don't disagree with that at all.

 

[ryandote]

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[J1515]

I'll do what I can to dig up the citations. In the meantime, don't confuse the issue by trying to massage a discussion on averages into a comparison on two individuals. That never works, and that's not what statistics are meant to say. It's closer to something like: "If you ran this scenario 100 times, it would turn out this way more often than that way." I think (or hope) you understand statistics well enough to agree with me there. There's no way anybody can use a model that will take in an MCAT score, a GPA, and a School name and spit out a perfect comparison.

I agree 100%. I was just throwing out the question that many pre-meds like to ask, with their "all other things being equal, who has a better chance of...."

Of course that's not how I chose my doctor- but I'll refer you back to the first paragraph here: I've made ABSOLUTELY NO predictions or generalizations on how skilled or compassionate a practicing DO will be compared to a practicing MD. I've made ABSOLUTELY NO predictions or judgements about who "on average" will be the 'better' doctor.

You didn't, I was responding to the ridiculous comment that "uglyjohn" made about how when a patient sees the DO letters after a doctor's name they will move on to the next. Didn't mean to lump you in.

1 - Some aspects of OMM (craniosacral and visceral manipulation) are crap.

2 - ON AVERAGE, entrance requirements to DO schools are lower than MD schools.

Agree with both of the above. I believe if you phrased it originally as you did above there probably would've been less backlash.

3 - ON AVERAGE, MD graduates have a better chance at more competitive residencies than DO graduates. I don't think this is because DO's aren't as good. I think it is a holdover from when the weirded OMM was a cornerstone of osteopathy. I think it is because residency directors see higher admissions standards in MD schools. Maybe it is because MCAT and Step 1 have a weak correlation.

I think you are ignoring the fact that DOs have their own osteopathic residencies that only they are allowed to apply for in addition to allopathic. Before I can accept your above statement I would have to see how many osteopathic applicants there were to lets say orthopedic or derm programs and what % of them were accepted overall and then compare that # to our allopathic counterparts. Also, I fear I might get bashed for saying this, but I really don't believe that MCAT and Step 1 have such a weak correlation as people have said. Can someone point me to a study that proves otherwise?

 

[ryandote]

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[J1515]

Touche, sir.

The NRMP dataset will cost me 100$ so I'm not gonna do it. The publicly available data lumps FMD, CMD, DO, and a few others into an "independent" group that matches considerably poorer than the US Allo Seniors group. (I looked at Derm, Rads and Neuro and two of the percentage rates were 90:40 and 60:39 or so. It was a few hours ago and I don't have the patience to look it all up again). However, I assert that the DO applicants from that group probably match better than the rest, so I don't have any conclusive evidence. And I'm not willing to cough up 100$ either.

Correct. The a major factor that sets DOs apart from FMGs during residency application time is that there are osteopathic residencies open to only DOs. I'm not sure if the above percentage rates take osteopathic residency matches into account or not, but regardless, it includes FMGs so it may or may not (my guess is not) be accurate. Perhaps all the pre-allos who are so hell bent on proving us DOs are inferior should take up a collection fund for the NRMP dataset to put this argument to sleep once and for all.

These two studies show a positive correlation between MCAT and Step 1. The first paper shows partialed correlations for the 3 subsections individually, and shows BS as the strongest correlation (which refutes the old VR rumor). The second paper does a similar regression using composite scores.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12377692?dopt=AbstractPlus
http://eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal/Ho...d=0900019b800f3354&accno=EJ682439&_nfls=false

[/QUOTE]

That's what I thought. Barring extenuating circumstances, I can't see someone getting a 20 on the MCAT and then breaking 90th percentile on the boards. While all the supposed "bad test takers" grasp at straws to say that there is no correlation, I believe the above studies.