Low pass in Ob/Gyn, does this really matter for psychiatry??

[budda10000]

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Hello Ladies/Gents,

I was hoping to get advice on a it of a pickle I am in. I unfortunately received a rather poor and unprofessional evaluation for my Ob/Gyn rotation that basically is a slap in the face of my otherwise strong/consistent performance in medical school. Despite honoring the shelf, publishing research while on this rotation, and receiving a LOR from a faculty member that did not evaluate me the site coordinating physician still found it necessary to basically call me a lazy unmotivated student however she stopped short of failing me. No feedback/specifics were given in the evaluation and I was even accused of being on controlled substances(not on MSPE comments). My question are

A)What is the likelihood this evaluation will stand given how odd/unprofessional it is?(I challenged it with my school)
B)Will this even matter given I am applying psych? I am trying for a top academic program(the few that take DO's)
C)If it does stand can I sue for libel given the accusations that were leveled without any evidence or action taken? It is my understanding that if you suspect a student is intoxicated you need to remove them from service immediately. This was not done and I was allowed to be 1st assist on multiple surgeries with this attending.

Background
class rank top 20% with majority honors in pre-clinicals
Step 1 240
clinical grade average high pass with several honors(in psych, IM, Nuero)
Shelf exams-some honors(surgery, psych, OB/Gyn), all well above average
Research-6 publications, 2 first authors in psychiatry
Strong LOR from known academic faculty including in OB/Gyn

 

[EM2Be2017]

I would absolutely challenge the grade given you have a record of high success and if you have a supportive administration they should be able to see that this characterization of you is way abnormal. Will it work? That's hard to say, but I would at the very least try. I would also contact the doc who wrote you the LOR to see if he/she will go to bat for you and write a letter to your dean or something.

What exactly did the comments say? This what really matters the most. If they literally put that you are lazy, unmotivated or other negative comments and these are going to be put in your dean's letter, then that is a big deal. Simply getting one low-pass in OB/GYN isn't going to torpedo your chances for psych overall, but it might hurt to some degree for the big academic programs. Overall I would be way more concerned about what's going to be in your dean's letter.

As a side note, why would you get a LOR from an OB/GYN for psych? I might be out of the loop but I just figured program directors only really cared about LOR from people within their field.

 

[budda10000]

The comments I think will be removed based on what I have heard from other students with unprofessional comments left on their MSPE evals, I am not the first one to have this happen and the general trend is for the admin to do damage control to overly zealous graders. To answer your question, I got the LOR because the doc is well known in the field and I did a case study with them. In hindsight I am glad I got an ally at that rotation site because otherwise this evaluation would be the only evidence of my clinical performance. I already have 3 LOR from well known academic psychiatrists so I covered all my bases there.

 

[ERDOC555]

Hello Ladies/Gents,

I was hoping to get advice on a it of a pickle I am in. I unfortunately received a rather poor and unprofessional evaluation for my Ob/Gyn rotation that basically is a slap in the face of my otherwise strong/consistent performance in medical school. Despite honoring the shelf, publishing research while on this rotation, and receiving a LOR from a faculty member that did not evaluate me the site coordinating physician still found it necessary to basically call me a lazy unmotivated student however she stopped short of failing me. No feedback/specifics were given in the evaluation and I was even accused of being on controlled substances(not on MSPE comments). My question are

A)What is the likelihood this evaluation will stand given how odd/unprofessional it is?(I challenged it with my school)
B)Will this even matter given I am applying psych? I am trying for a top academic program(the few that take DO's)
C)If it does stand can I sue for libel given the accusations that were leveled without any evidence or action taken? It is my understanding that if you suspect a student is intoxicated you need to remove them from service immediately. This was not done and I was allowed to be 1st assist on multiple surgeries with this attending.

Background
class rank top 20% with majority honors in pre-clinicals
Step 1 240
clinical grade average high pass with several honors(in psych, IM, Nuero)
Shelf exams-some honors(surgery, psych, OB/Gyn), all well above average
Research-6 publications, 2 first authors in psychiatry
Strong LOR from known academic faculty including in OB/Gyn

Oh man, you better forget about even trying to match into the worst psychiatry programs in the most undesirable of locations. With a low pass in ob/gyn you'd be lucky to even match a low-tier family residency in somalia.

Just kidding, I'm sure programs will look at your whole application and see that one low grade and/or a negative comment is not reflective of your ability that shows in the rest of your application.

 

[budda10000]

Oh man, you better forget about even trying to match into the worst psychiatry programs in the most undesirable of locations. With a low pass in ob/gyn you'd be lucky to even match a low-tier family residency in somalia.

Just kidding, I'm sure programs will look at your whole application and see that one low grade and/or a negative comment is not reflective of your ability that shows in the rest of your application.

That's fine, I can moonlight as a pirate and pay off my loans.

 

[LutGholein]

Sigh...so many female OB-gyn docs are absolute b***es.

I keep hearing that OB-gyn across different programs(and regions) have malignant environments for whatever reason-- any advice on how to approach these rotations without stepping on toes(especially for male med students)?

 

[OrthoTraumaMD]

I keep hearing that OB-gyn across different programs(and regions) have malignant environments for whatever reason-- any advice on how to approach these rotations without stepping on toes(especially for male med students)?

I don't have any advice. I hated obgyn for that reason. Try to keep your head down and grit your teeth, and just survive until it is over. Don't question their authority, or even look like you are questioning: the most malignant people have the lowest self esteem and will take everything personally.

 

[ActinicKeratosis]

.

 

[Chillbo Baggins]

I keep hearing that OB-gyn across different programs(and regions) have malignant environments for whatever reason-- any advice on how to approach these rotations without stepping on toes(especially for male med students)?

I went into my Ob rotation with the same fears, having heard this general consensus everywhere else, including at my school from prior classes, but it turned out that (outside of my week of ortho during surgery), it ended up being the best run, and my favorite, rotation of the year. So take what you hear with a grain of salt and know that your experience is going to be different from everyone else's.

 

[Caltechstud]

I would be more concerned about your school's policy on the the consequence of Low-Pass. In my school 2 Low-Passes mean you have to repeat both rotations, meaning you can't graduate on time. 3 Low-Passes means you have to repeat entire 3rd year.

 

[ActinicKeratosis]

I would be more concerned about your school's policy on the the consequence of Low-Pass. In my school 2 Low-Passes mean you have to repeat both rotations, meaning you can't graduate on time. 3 Low-Passes means you have to repeat entire 3rd year.

I would rather take Step 1 again than have to repeat third year. That sounds absolutely horrendous.

 

[EM2Be2017]

The comments I think will be removed based on what I have heard from other students with unprofessional comments left on their MSPE evals, I am not the first one to have this happen and the general trend is for the admin to do damage control to overly zealous graders.

I would definitely fight the grade and evals. If she truly accused you of being on drugs I would bring up complaints about this physician to the deans. That can't be tolerated and it sounds like this doc has some sort of personality issues (which unfortunately is not all that uncommon in medicine). It might be a really great blessing that you developed a good relationship with the one OB/GYN as hopefully they will be able to defend your performance.

At the very least, you need to do everything within your power to get any negative comments removed from the deans letter. One low pass in OB/GYN isn't really that big of a deal when you have a bunch of HP /H and H in psych. However negative comments such as "unmotivated" or "unprofessional" in a deans letter will torpedo your application as this is seen as a big red flag.

 

[Caltechstud]

I would definitely fight the grade and evals. If she truly accused you of being on drugs I would bring up complaints about this physician to the deans. That can't be tolerated and it sounds like this doc has some sort of personality issues (which unfortunately is not all that uncommon in medicine). It might be a really great blessing that you developed a good relationship with the one OB/GYN as hopefully they will be able to defend your performance.

At the very least, you need to do everything within your power to get any negative comments removed from the deans letter. One low pass in OB/GYN isn't really that big of a deal when you have a bunch of HP /H and H in psych. However negative comments such as "unmotivated" or "unprofessional" in a deans letter will torpedo your application as this is seen as a big red flag.

I would argue his grade is more concerning. One low-pass usually means you are on thin ice - another slip up of low pass (say you bombed the Shelf) means you have to do remediation, possibly delaying graduation.

If those negative comments are the only in your MSPE, I would not worry about it. Your LOR carries much much more weight. Everyone knows how subjective these comments are - and one bad set of comments is no big deal.

An example of how much joke these "evaluations" are - a friend of mine took a leave of absence half way through her surgery rotation. On the 2nd rotation where she didn't even show up - there was an eval in her file that states she was an 'excellent student, pleasure to work with". Another student who actually showed up and worked hard, got a bad eval stating that he "needs to read more, needs to be more prepared for rounds, and speak slower."

 

[Stagg737]

I would absolutely challenge the grade given you have a record of high success and if you have a supportive administration they should be able to see that this characterization of you is way abnormal. Will it work? That's hard to say, but I would at the very least try. I would also contact the doc who wrote you the LOR to see if he/she will go to bat for you and write a letter to your dean or something.

What exactly did the comments say? This what really matters the most. If they literally put that you are lazy, unmotivated or other negative comments and these are going to be put in your dean's letter, then that is a big deal. Simply getting one low-pass in OB/GYN isn't going to torpedo your chances for psych overall, but it might hurt to some degree for the big academic programs. Overall I would be way more concerned about what's going to be in your dean's letter.

As a side note, why would you get a LOR from an OB/GYN for psych? I might be out of the loop but I just figured program directors only really cared about LOR from people within their field.

Depending on the field it's good to have a letter or two from another specialty. From what I understand with psych, it's good to have a FM or IM letter (or any letter) which states you're empathetic and able to connect with your patients well as well as showing you have a decent foundation/baseline for knowledge in medicine. Some fields only care about letters from within (ie surgical fields), but others do like to see some variety. Either way the letters from that field are certainly the most important. Attendings can correct me if I'm mistaken, but this is the general message I've always heard.

 

[budda10000]

I would argue his grade is more concerning. One low-pass usually means you are on thin ice - another slip up of low pass (say you bombed the Shelf) means you have to do remediation, possibly delaying graduation.

If those negative comments are the only in your MSPE, I would not worry about it. Your LOR carries much much more weight. Everyone knows how subjective these comments are - and one bad set of comments is no big deal.

An example of how much joke these "evaluations" are - a friend of mine took a leave of absence half way through her surgery rotation. On the 2nd rotation where she didn't even show up - there was an eval in her file that states she was an 'excellent student, pleasure to work with". Another student who actually showed up and worked hard, got a bad eval stating that he "needs to read more, needs to be more prepared for rounds, and speak slower."

I don't think my school carries such a policy(I know two people with >1 Low pass) and I only have two shelf exams left so I am not too worried about the prospect of remediation.

 

[sazerac]

I keep hearing that OB-gyn across different programs(and regions) have malignant environments for whatever reason-- any advice on how to approach these rotations without stepping on toes(especially for male med students)?

At my own malignant OB/GYN rotation, I quickly figured out that the residents / attendings really didn't like having med students, especially male med students around. So I slipped away every day, after signing in. I actually had a contest with another student to see which one could get out faster. It became kind of a game.

My record was one time, around 9:45 am, he texted me asking me where the hell I was. I sent him a selfie, with me grinning in the foreground, and the hospital far far away in the background. He was so jealous.

My OB/GYN evals were good, though a bit generic.

 

[MSTP18]

I keep hearing that OB-gyn across different programs(and regions) have malignant environments for whatever reason-- any advice on how to approach these rotations without stepping on toes(especially for male med students)?

At my school, the male students are generally treated better actually

 

[LutGholein]

At my school, the male students are generally treated better actually

Wow that's interesting! Any hypothesis why there's a discrepancy in treatment of med students in your particular school for that rotation?

 

[MSTP18]

Wow that's interesting! Any hypothesis why there's a discrepancy in treatment of med students in your particular school for that rotation?

Nothing based on anything other than pure speculation. Maybe they want more males to enter the field so they treat them better? Maybe they displace their own frustrations of being residents onto the females more because it's easier to see themselves in them? Guilt over the fact that the patients frequently don't want the male students in the room? Assume the female students should know more and thus get more easily frustrated when they don't because it's more applicable to their personal life than a male's? I've heard other schools with the same thing (men treated better than women) never actually heard the opposite before this thread.

 

[ridethecliche]

At my own malignant OB/GYN rotation, I quickly figured out that the residents / attendings really didn't like having med students, especially male med students around. So I slipped away every day, after signing in. I actually had a contest with another student to see which one could get out faster. It became kind of a game.

My record was one time, around 9:45 am, he texted me asking me where the hell I was. I sent him a selfie, with me grinning in the foreground, and the hospital far far away in the background. He was so jealous.

My OB/GYN evals were good, though a bit generic.

You're my hero.

 

[budda10000]

**update on this***
So my school contacted the site and described multiple "complaints" by people at the site. The secretary thought I was disheveled and high on the first day and stated I complained about my schedule(in fact what happened is she offered me the ability to customize it, not sure why I was "disheveled"). I was apparently late to rotation by one hour on multiple occasions(completely false, I was the first student on site most days) and was late to clinic one day(only half true, I showed up and started seeing patients without checking in with my preceptor who was nowhere to be found, i.e. being proactive., touched base with them about 45min into seeing patients and apologized for the miscommunication) I almost feel like I am being punished for being too independent? The preceptor that "graded" me spent all of about 2 actual days working with me and was otherwise absent other than brief morning rounds.

I also have multiple character witnesses that I have rounded up to contradict my evaluation, stating that not only was I not terrible but rather excellent. My school has offered to strike out the comments so I suppose that is a partial victory. What I am wondering is should I escalate this complaint? I feel like the admin I have dealt with so far is just trying to make this problem go away and minimize the damage to my resume, which I appreciate, but feel like this Low Pass grade is completely unjustifiable especially given the libelous nature of the criticisms. Any idea on if I should even push this further? I admit I am really at a loss on what to do at this point because I do not want to upset my school for no reason, I really don't have a problem with them.

 

[ActinicKeratosis]

I would pursue it further. Your grade likely resulted from unfair treatment of you. I wouldn't let the administration work you like that. This is one of the rare circumstances where I suggest you try to get them to actually change the grade. It's not like they will get angry at you and "take back" deleting the comments from your MSPE.

 

[BigSkyMontana45]

You should read my previous thread - EXACT same situation at yours - except this was a low pass/marginal in surgery clerkship.

I did everything to appeal, but in the end was unsuccessful - why? The burden is on the student to provide the burden of evidence that the evaluation was made maliciously and in bad faith. I printed out my patients notes with time stamp to prove I did my job and I knew what I was doing - but my appeal was rejected at the highest level based on technical grounds that I couldn't prove the attending gave me that eval in bad faith. All the attending had to say was "Montana mixed up patients, she stumbled on rounds, and needs to be corrected".

 

[BigSkyMontana45]

**update on this***
So my school contacted the site and described multiple "complaints" by people at the site. The secretary thought I was disheveled and high on the first day and stated I complained about my schedule(in fact what happened is she offered me the ability to customize it, not sure why I was "disheveled"). I was apparently late to rotation by one hour on multiple occasions(completely false, I was the first student on site most days) and was late to clinic one day(only half true, I showed up and started seeing patients without checking in with my preceptor who was nowhere to be found, i.e. being proactive., touched base with them about 45min into seeing patients and apologized for the miscommunication) I almost feel like I am being punished for being too independent? The preceptor that "graded" me spent all of about 2 actual days working with me and was otherwise absent other than brief morning rounds.

I also have multiple character witnesses that I have rounded up to contradict my evaluation, stating that not only was I not terrible but rather excellent. My school has offered to strike out the comments so I suppose that is a partial victory. What I am wondering is should I escalate this complaint? I feel like the admin I have dealt with so far is just trying to make this problem go away and minimize the damage to my resume, which I appreciate, but feel like this Low Pass grade is completely unjustifiable especially given the libelous nature of the criticisms. Any idea on if I should even push this further? I admit I am really at a loss on what to do at this point because I do not want to upset my school for no reason, I really don't have a problem with them.

Trust me - I am exactly in your shoes - it is the GRADE that matters, not the comments. A PASS with bad comments is way better than a MARGINAL grade with good comments.