Loyola General Surgery

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DRH

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Hey,
I was hoping to get some responses about the reputation of Loyola's general surgery program. I have heard that it has a reputation as a "malignant" program. The PD admitted that this was the reputation in the past but she believes that this is not the cases currently. I would really appreciate some comments on this issue.
Thanks

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Loyola has one of the most malignant surgery programs in the country!!
cpl years ago all their catagorical spots went unmatched
loyola students dread their surgery rotations
this program is notorious for torturing residents!
 
What constitutes a "malignant" program?
 
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There have been major changes recently at Loyola in terms of their residency program. A few years ago, the chair was fired and a new, more empathetic doctor was hired. Changes are being made for the better, but implementation takes a while. Most of my fellow students seem to enjoy their rotations in surgery and my husband is strongly thinking about applying here for residency as it offers a wonderful array of options. I guess the best advice is to take heed as to what others say, but then you decide. Keep in mind however, the current chief residents and perhaps 4th years are some of the last residents to be choosen by the fired chairperson.
 
resident after resident and many loyola students have told me that Loyola surgery residency to this day is one of the worst. even after the new chair. the faculty is mostly the same which means at the end of the day you cant teach an old dog new tricks!@@!!
 
Originally posted by Iron Horse
What constitutes a "malignant" program?

Bueller? Anyone?
 
I think the definition of a "malignant" program varies from person to person. To some, it means the residents are constantly treated like crap by faculty and yelled at on a regular basis. To others, it means extensive work hours with little time off. To others, it means the program fires residents on a regular basis and they are always under the gun for any mistakes they make. So to answer your question - there is no specific answer. It all depends on what you consider to be malignant.
 
Thanks for the reply. It's interesting to hear that there is so much variability to the definition given how frequently people toss it around as if everyone else knows precisely what the poster means by the word.
 
apma77 where did you get your info? Loyola never had a year where all their categorical gen surg spots went unfilled. If you don't want to go to Loyola for your residency, then don't go. There is no reason to bash a program you know very little about.
 
Lots of noise about a personal opinion. Loyola is a very strong Gen surg program that trains very competent surgeons. That being said, the training is very difficult. Personalities in the department can be abrasive. I enjoyed my 3rd yr. clerkship, but can remember feeling stressed out from personalities many times.

Summation;Excellent program for hard core people.
 
hey i just stated my personal opinion on the loyola program
those of you who wish to interview and match there can do so-
have a happy 5 yrs with the pricks at loyola suckers!!!
 
As a categorical PGY-1 at Loyola, I'd better weigh in before the anecdotal stories from outside faculty/residents/students get totally out of hand.

I have never been yelled at on rounds by faculty or chiefs. No one has thrown instruments at me in the OR--yes, I am welcome in the OR. I have 100 cases logged, 50 major cases, with 2 more heavy intern operative months to go. I fully expect to get almost 100 major cases by the time the year is up. The faculty, PD and the chair know me on a first name basis and have no problems rounding with me when the senior residents are busy.

Dr. Gamelli is the best chair one could hope for. He is a strong resident advocate, a big believer in surgical education and research... he wants to further your development as a leader in your future endeavours, whether that be in private or academic practice. You want to work hard for this man.

I graduated from a school with a "maligant" program where residents actively told me to go elsewhere. Loyola is not even close to this. Do I work hard? Of course. There are times I left the hospital well after sunset... but there are times I left while the sun was up, early enough where myself and fellow interns could enjoy happy hour. Do we have an 80 hr week now... no, I won't lie about that. But, it will be a reality when the next intern class shows up. Both the chair and PD are big believers in this and will comply.

I've taken care of the sickest patients in the SICU, CV ICU, and Burn ICU since July. I've been putting in central lines by myself since July. My education, both in theory and practice, easily rivals that of my other surgical friends in other institutions and often exceeds them. My fellow classmates are strong physicians and even better people. I will thoroughly enjoy running the gauntlet with them for the next 5 years.

Don't believe everything you hear. Base your judgements on reliable information. Good luck to all the applicants out there... hopefully I'll see some of you here in July.
 
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wait, loyola students hate their surgery rotations?
 
just a heads up
check the dates on those original posts....they're from 2003, so i question their accuracy for 3 yrs later.
also, i just interviewed at loyola and i did not get a malignant vibe WHATSOEVER! The chair was really nice, the PD was very as to talk to, as were all the faculty and residents that I met. Thy acknowledged that in the past there were some "old school" style surgeons there who were malignant, but doesn't seem that way now. With newer faculty come newer ways of thinking.
The interns I met with did not seem tired, and the loyola students who were there interviewing seemed to have a good impression of the program....not "dreadful" at all.
only thing that seemed off to me was that the chief resident seemed pretty tired for a chief, more so than the juniors.
anyway, that's my $.02
 
my sources tell me the residents work well over 100hrs a week
 
apma77 said:
my sources tell me the residents work well over 100hrs a week

Interesting... sources = current residents? former residents? med students? just curious... This is all helpful info...
 
Any current residents or med students care to comment on this program?
 
I read most of this thread and then noticed it was from years ago.
I spent 4 years in Chicago and never heard anything good or bad about Loyola. I have meet a few residents from there and by and large they seem happy. If your interested take a look, and really spend time questioning the house staff. Hope this helps
 
I started reading this thread from the begining, and then i noticed its old. the program has never been unfilled, and i don't think anyone has left. there are residents who have gone to 3+3 programs; i.e plastics.

Loyola is a great program, very strong and well respected. good facilities, new ambulatory surgery center that has outpatient cases going all day. a lot of intern operating there. additional ORs coming in may08. the surgical volume is high and there are top notch surgeons that are nationally respected here; 5-7 in gen surg department i say that to say, there are people here that can get you where you want to go. as a resident, its a top heavy program, but interns do get to scrub 100-130 cases, and an occasional big case you weren't supposed to get but the other residents were busy. loyola has one of the highest accuity ratings in the country, that means there are a **** load of icu's and sick people. 12 or 13 individual units. so we get a lot of transfers ; patients that are all jacked up.. so, big on critical care here. surg onc is the busiest specialty service. some weeks, 2-4whipples a week, liver whacks all the time, very busy. often times, chiefs from other services will have to cover a huge case whipple, liver resection, because the chief on the service is scrubbed. CV is also huge, best heart program in the state; hands down; i hear their rank went down in 2007 because they started operating on sicker patients, but are still the best in the state, i think most hospitals recognize that. trauma/critical care is busy, mostly blunt, some penetrating, but mostly blunt. trauma/critical care is in charge of the SICU. you spend a lot of time in the icu as a surg resident, so if you don't like critical care, don't come. you will be smart as #$% and prepared to take care of any patient with any problem, but it is long and hard hours. as a pgy 4, you are the trauma chief, 6wks on the am service , then 6wks on pm service. also they have a course her called ATOM; advance trauma operative managment, basically they jack the a pig up and let you fix it. i don't know how they do the "jacking up" but i hear its really intense, excellent experience. only a few programs do that. burn; one of the busiest burn centers in the midwest, the director of the unit was the president of national burn society or whatever their national organization is.. the chief year is year 3, its just the chief and the attending, great operative experience. get transfers from everywhere all the time. nec fasc / fourniers cases are always fun, huge wacks!!!!, sad though. general surgery is good, a lot of complicated abdominal wall wounds, fistulas, dehesicance (sp) ect.. you'll get good exposure to bread and butter cases, fun times. peds surgery is cool, we just got a new attending ;for one attending and the chief (3rd year); its really busy. i have no interest in peds surgery, but i'm looking forward to doing the service; i'm sure i'll get 40 good cases out of it. endocrine is big here: you will do enough thyroids and parathyroids to do them in your sleep with your toes...lol.. i was on service for a month and there were 3 lap adrenals, 15-25 thyroid/parathyroids
transplant: a bit slow.. 8-9 kidneys a month, haven't done the service.

academics has been up and down in my experience. i've learned, the busier the service, the less learning you do. but there are resident conferences , grand rounds and m&m. the attnedings are good about pimping. i like that, it means you care enough to slow your day down and ask me a question and be patient with my fumbles.

one thing i really like, i've noticed the surgeons here a a bit fearless, sometimes maybe too fearless, but fearless. they have given folks a shot that nobody else would touch. a good percent make it. took a 96yr old back the other day...lol...he made it though.

weakness is laproscopic surgery, big weakness. slow on cultureal diversity, pay sucks ass.. cafeteria food suks and is expensive;
have 3 or 4 robots, but i think urology, obgyn and urogyn are the ones who use them.

affiliated programs are Hines Va which is one of the largest Va's in the country, i'm not sure what time of operative experience you get overthere. haven't gone yet, but i hear its good.. you do CV surgery there, it rocks. not sure if the fellows are over there, but there are so many heart cases, i'm sure they let you do some anastamosis.

Ressurection; is a community hospital in the northwest subburbs, get good operative expericne out there, havne't been out there either, but i heard good things.
 
I started reading this thread from the begining, and then i noticed its old. the program has never been unfilled, and i don't think anyone has left. there are residents who have gone to 3+3 programs; i.e plastics.

Loyola is a great program, very strong and well respected. good facilities, new ambulatory surgery center that has outpatient cases going all day. a lot of intern operating there. additional ORs coming in may08. the surgical volume is high and there are top notch surgeons that are nationally respected here; 5-7 in gen surg department i say that to say, there are people here that can get you where you want to go. as a resident, its a top heavy program, but interns do get to scrub 100-130 cases, and an occasional big case you weren't supposed to get but the other residents were busy. loyola has one of the highest accuity ratings in the country, that means there are a **** load of icu's and sick people. 12 or 13 individual units. so we get a lot of transfers ; patients that are all jacked up.. so, big on critical care here. surg onc is the busiest specialty service. some weeks, 2-4whipples a week, liver whacks all the time, very busy. often times, chiefs from other services will have to cover a huge case whipple, liver resection, because the chief on the service is scrubbed. CV is also huge, best heart program in the state; hands down; i hear their rank went down in 2007 because they started operating on sicker patients, but are still the best in the state, i think most hospitals recognize that. trauma/critical care is busy, mostly blunt, some penetrating, but mostly blunt. trauma/critical care is in charge of the SICU. you spend a lot of time in the icu as a surg resident, so if you don't like critical care, don't come. you will be smart as #$% and prepared to take care of any patient with any problem, but it is long and hard hours. as a pgy 4, you are the trauma chief, 6wks on the am service , then 6wks on pm service. also they have a course her called ATOM; advance trauma operative managment, basically they jack the a pig up and let you fix it. i don't know how they do the "jacking up" but i hear its really intense, excellent experience. only a few programs do that. burn; one of the busiest burn centers in the midwest, the director of the unit was the president of national burn society or whatever their national organization is.. the chief year is year 3, its just the chief and the attending, great operative experience. get transfers from everywhere all the time. nec fasc / fourniers cases are always fun, huge wacks!!!!, sad though. general surgery is good, a lot of complicated abdominal wall wounds, fistulas, dehesicance (sp) ect.. you'll get good exposure to bread and butter cases, fun times. peds surgery is cool, we just got a new attending ;for one attending and the chief (3rd year); its really busy. i have no interest in peds surgery, but i'm looking forward to doing the service; i'm sure i'll get 40 good cases out of it. endocrine is big here: you will do enough thyroids and parathyroids to do them in your sleep with your toes...lol.. i was on service for a month and there were 3 lap adrenals, 15-25 thyroid/parathyroids
transplant: a bit slow.. 8-9 kidneys a month, haven't done the service.

academics has been up and down in my experience. i've learned, the busier the service, the less learning you do. but there are resident conferences , grand rounds and m&m. the attnedings are good about pimping. i like that, it means you care enough to slow your day down and ask me a question and be patient with my fumbles.

one thing i really like, i've noticed the surgeons here a a bit fearless, sometimes maybe too fearless, but fearless. they have given folks a shot that nobody else would touch. a good percent make it. took a 96yr old back the other day...lol...he made it though.

weakness is laproscopic surgery, big weakness. slow on cultureal diversity, pay sucks ass.. cafeteria food suks and is expensive;
have 3 or 4 robots, but i think urology, obgyn and urogyn are the ones who use them.

affiliated programs are Hines Va which is one of the largest Va's in the country, i'm not sure what time of operative experience you get overthere. haven't gone yet, but i hear its good.. you do CV surgery there, it rocks. not sure if the fellows are over there, but there are so many heart cases, i'm sure they let you do some anastamosis.

Ressurection; is a community hospital in the northwest subburbs, get good operative expericne out there, havne't been out there either, but i heard good things.

There are a few things that need to be kept in perspective when talking up/down or about a program. I was a student at Loyola a few years ago, and while things certainly change, I at least have some idea of how things operate there. I will second some of the things that Surgical06 stated: very high acuity patients, lots of intensive care experience, good surg onc (no fellows), big burn center.

To clarify, he mentioned 8-9 kidney transplants/month, but the UNOS registry lists Loyola doing 80 kidneys in 06, 62 in '05 and 31 thus far in '07. UNOS lists 13 livers in '06 and 7 thus far in '07. These are not huge numbers. And there are no ACGME requirements (at the current time) for transplant cases.

Also, while there are many thyroids and parathyroids performed at Loyola, keep in mind that the ACGME requires a total of only 8 endocrine cases.

On the flip side, the ACGME recently changed the laparoscopic requirements and now require 60 basic lap cases (choles or appys) and 25 advanced cases. Surgical06 mentioned that laparscopic surgery is a big weakness.

The fact that Loyola is a great heart hospital should not affect a decision to go there. There are very few surgery programs that have a stellar/fantastic/great cardiac experience. Thoracic maybe, but not cardiac, Loyola included.

The Hines VA is a good and big VA with a good operative experience.

I think Loyola is a good program and, while we all have program-pride, it's important to be objective.
 
jc your statement is riddled with assumptions...lol. i said transplant was slow, and i think everyone else understood that, strong work on finding that fact though. i actually want to do heart, so its not program pride, its passion about the type of surgery you see and do. high volumes = more stuff that the fellows pass down to the chief or more cases to go around.

any extra's i.e excellent endocrine, which includes lap adrenals, is a bonus, which makes programs stronger. the ACGME requirements are low because they aren't that common or you have to share with ENT, the point is, they are extremely common here

quick addtion: if you wanna do minimally invasive, don't come. although the chief from last year graduated and is doing some snazzy MIS fellowship. he was in europe over the summer training with people who do colectomies through peoples ears lol. i like maximally invasive surgery, horrified by NOTES, maybe my passion will change.
 
jc your statement is riddled with assumptions...lol. i said transplant was slow, and i think everyone else understood that, strong work on finding that fact though. i actually want to do heart, so its not program pride, its passion about the type of surgery you see and do. high volumes = more stuff that the fellows pass down to the chief or more cases to go around.

any extra's i.e excellent endocrine, which includes lap adrenals, is a bonus, which makes programs stronger. the ACGME requirements are low because they aren't that common or you have to share with ENT, the point is, they are extremely common here

quick addtion: if you wanna do minimally invasive, don't come. although the chief from last year graduated and is doing some snazzy MIS fellowship. he was in europe over the summer training with people who do colectomies through peoples ears lol. i like maximally invasive surgery, horrified by NOTES, maybe my passion will change.

I think you mean you share lap adrenals with urology.:laugh:
I've also had a few med students ask me about this program so I talked to a few people (attending, PD, ect). They said the program was outstanding. Many would rank Loyolla above Northwestern in Chicagoland but under UC.
How this helps
 
Thanks a lot for all the information about the program, it sounds like a solid place. But could you address the question of the program's "malignant" reputation? I have heard from residents that the work hour rules are routinely violated at Loyola. Is that true?

Thanks so much.
 
Thanks a lot for all the information about the program, it sounds like a solid place. But could you address the question of the program's "malignant" reputation? I have heard from residents that the work hour rules are routinely violated at Loyola. Is that true?

Thanks so much.

If your concerned about work hours don't go into surgery
 
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