lying about race

[freshandclean]

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before i get yelled at let me let everyone know that this is not about me, but just a curious issue i have..


i know a south-asian (indian) student who was a year above me (current first year at a "top10" according to the latest usnwr. he came back to campus this past weekend for some alumni thing and i ran into him at a party (we worked on the same floor of labs). he was a little bit tipsy at this party and straight up told me he claimed himself as a hispanic urm on his applications. he said "im not sure i wouldve even recieved interviews at some of the schools i got into if i didnt do it." he went on to say, that the schools really had no way of checking into it, and they didnt really care anyway once a student was in to bother about checking...

now i guess he is a special case, becasue many people in undergrad mistook him for hispanic, and he has a Christian name as well. but i was just wondering if anyone had some thoughts on this, becasue it kind of annoyed me to hear him say that. i guess it annoys me more knowing that he will never get caught (as long as he keeps his mouth shut!)..

 

[freshandclean]

i guess this also leads me to the question, do adcoms really have a way of checking this? i mean if you look the part, and have the name, background etc. to match, what could an adcom really do as check?

 

[NonTradMed]

I guess he beat the system. These things happen.

 

[swifty100850]

I guess he beat the system. These things happen.

These things happen? 😱 I hope not often. That's such a terrible lie.

Sooner or later, he's going to get caught up in his lie and he'll be kicked out. Hopefully, it will be after he's accumulated a lot of loans

I never heard of anyone doing that for med school, but I heard of some kid doing it for law school (claiming he's URM when he really wasn't). A school found out and notified others, but no one ever punished him.

 

[CardiacIntensivist]

If your friend is telling the truth, he is extremely lucky he didn't get caught. I personally would not do it. I am not a URM nor did I ever feel like I was truly disadvantaged. There would always be this guilt and self-doubt looming over me if I did what your friend did. Would I be a doctor if I hadn't tricked the system? Did I ever deserve to get into the medical school that I did?

Also, I worked extremely hard the last three years to make my application competitive. I want my own actions (GPA, ECs, MCAT) to reflect back on me. I don't need to claim any "status" if it has not impaired my ability to be a good student. For fairness sake, I hope that people who do lie get caught.

 

[neurotik]

i dont blame him, hes an ORM (indian male), so i guess its only fair that he tried to level the playing field and it worked for him.

 

[freshandclean]

If your friend is telling the truth, he is extremely lucky he didn't get caught. I personally would not do it. I am not a URM nor did I ever feel like I was truly disadvantaged. There would always be this guilt and self-doubt looming over me if I did what your friend did. Would I be a doctor if I hadn't tricked the system? Did I ever deserve to get into the medical school that I did?

Also, I worked extremely hard the last three years to make my application competitive. I want my own actions (GPA, ECs, MCAT) to reflect back on me. I don't need to claim any "status" if it has not impaired my ability to be a good student. For fairness sake, I hope that people who do lie get caught.

how do you get caught though?

 

[CardiacIntensivist]

how do you get caught though?

I not really sure but I don't think there really is a definitive way. If you say you're hispanic on the application and the interviewer turns out to be hispanic himself you might get caught that way. Better not to risk it I guess. Why are you soooooooo interested? 😛

 

[Haga]

While on this subject....how much of a race do you have to be, to put yourself down as that race? Full, 1/2, 1/4????? My Great Grandfather name was Chief Tockohowe of the Cherokee, does this mean Im eligible to but down Native American? Not that Im going to, just a general question.

 

[AcousticDoc]

What if you were raised by an adopted black family. Could you legally consider yourself African-American? I remember reading in my sociology book about some adoptees considering themselves the race of their adopted parents.

 

[Dr. Pepper]

While on this subject....how much of a racist do you have to be, to put yourself down as that race? Full, 1/2, 1/4????? My Great Grandfather name was Chief Tockohowe of the Cherokee, does this mean Im eligible to but down Native American? Not that Im going to, just a general question.

I remember my friend asked me if he could consider himself hispanic since he was 1/32 hispanic...no, that is not a typo. The guy climbed his family tree like a monkey to find a Hispanic. I think he decided not to do it because he doesn't look hispanic nor does he speak spanish or is involved in anything hispanic-related.

Bottom line: If you ask me, you have to be at least 1/4, and furthermore, you have to SHOW some sort of cultural background. URM is not a divine right.

-Dr. P.

 

[CanIMakeIt]

i dont blame him, hes an ORM (Indian male), so i guess its only fair that he tried to level the playing field and it worked for him.

Are you serious?? level the playing field???? That was plain cheating and I would never want such a person to be my doctor who has no ethics. If he were really competitive then he wouldn't have to stoop to this level of cheapness. I do hope that he get caught and it is announced during his graduation ceremony.

 

[2Sexy4MedSchool]

While on this subject....how much of a racist do you have to be....

I don't think this is what you meant to ask, but if it is, well, if you're racist enough to wear a white sheet after Labor Day, that's enough.

 

[neurotik]

Are you serious?? level the playing field???? That was plain cheating and I would never want such a person to be my doctor who has no ethics. If he were really competitive then he wouldn't have to stoop to this level of cheapness. I do hope that he get caught and it is announced during his graduation ceremony.

ok, well is it fair that adcoms have quotas for certain orms? no it isnt. what he did obviously wasnt moral or legal, but it worked. the system is screwed up to begin with, why cant he do something about it? im happy for him.

 

[SuperTrooper]

If you say you're hispanic on the application and the interviewer turns out to be hispanic himself you might get caught that way. 😛

Yeah, but how many hispanic medical school faculty members are there out there? Not many i'm guessing.

 

[Haga]

I don't think this is what you meant to ask, but if it is, well, if you're racist enough to wear a white sheet after Labor Day, that's enough.

going back and editing that...lol

 

[CardiacIntensivist]

Yeah, but how many hispanic medical school faculty members are there out there? Not many i'm guessing.

I meant to generalize a race i.e. If you put down race X and the interviewer turned out to also be race X, you may get caught etc. I don't know the number of hispanic faculty but you never really know who you get, so in the long run, it is better to just play it straight.

 

[MDGuy07]

If your friend is telling the truth, he is extremely lucky he didn't get caught. I personally would not do it. I am not a URM nor did I ever feel like I was truly disadvantaged. There would always be this guilt and self-doubt looming over me if I did what your friend did. Would I be a doctor if I hadn't tricked the system? Did I ever deserve to get into the medical school that I did?

Also, I worked extremely hard the last three years to make my application competitive. I want my own actions (GPA, ECs, MCAT) to reflect back on me. I don't need to claim any "status" if it has not impaired my ability to be a good student. For fairness sake, I hope that people who do lie get caught.

Blacks and Spanish people don't seem to mind milking the system for what it is, so if you can milk the system then why wouldn't you?

If I could put down I was URM I would in a f*cking heartbeat....

 

[MDGuy07]

ok, well is it fair that adcoms have quotas for certain orms? no it isnt. what he did obviously wasnt moral or legal, but it worked. the system is screwed up to begin with, why cant he do something about it? im happy for him.

I agree 100%. Notice how blacks and spanish people get upset when you play the same game they do and milk the system just like they do.

 

[MDGuy07]

Are you serious?? level the playing field???? That was plain cheating and I would never want such a person to be my doctor who has no ethics. If he were really competitive then he wouldn't have to stoop to this level of cheapness. I do hope that he get caught and it is announced during his graduation ceremony.

What he did was no different than what Blacks and Spanish people do. Use their race to get advantages over everyone else.

 

[8744]

Hey, I claimed I was gay and it was working pretty well until they asked me to prove it.

 

[beefballs]

Hey, I claimed I was gay and it was working pretty well until they asked me to prove it.

Panda bear delivering needed levity since dec 2001

 

[MDGuy07]

^ lol

 

[StevenRF]

Hey, I claimed I was gay and it was working pretty well until they asked me to prove it.

Heh. In The Army Now style.


As a side note, couldn't everyone just say that they're african american? I mean if they ask you prove it, just respond, according to the general biology class you made me take, as well as an anthropology class I took, the current out of africa hypothesis suggests we all are descended from africans. Then you could say you're part middle eastern since they all went through that region anyway. And then if you're scandanavian you could say you're native american since some of the vikings were there for a while, and all of the other classic natives are really asian anyway.

Keep in mind I wouldn't actually do this, but it's 6AM before my last final before I graduate and I havn't slept much, so my cynical ahole side is coming out.

 

[freshandclean]

I not really sure but I don't think there really is a definitive way. If you say you're hispanic on the application and the interviewer turns out to be hispanic himself you might get caught that way. Better not to risk it I guess. Why are you soooooooo interested? 😛

haha, its not something im thinking about doing, its just that if its as easy as this guys said, im a little suprised it doesnt happen more, considering the ruthlessness of your average premed!

 

[GatorsWearJorts]

haha, its not something im thinking about doing, its just that if its as easy as this guys said, im a little suprised it doesnt happen more, considering the ruthlessness of your average premed!

I think a lot of med schools are so happy and willing to have URMs that they almost wouldnt care if they think you are lying. Just like MCAT and GPA scores help out their numbers, the amount of URMs they accept helps them out also. If you want to say you are a URM, they may be happy to take you- as it helps them out and makes them look good- without too much of a question. All that matters for the numbers is that you marked it on AMCAS, after that they could care less, as long as it helps their numbers.

Another thing to think about is- for schools with a closed file interview, there is absolutely no way to confirm someone's race. I think maybe if an interviewer looked at someone's file after the interview and saw that they marked URM...they would just be like " Oh I didnt realize this guy was hispanic. Great..bonus for us- we just got ourselves some more diversity. Lets accept this guy so we can hurry up and report it."

 

[isobel]

I agree 100%. Notice how blacks and spanish people get upset when you play the same game they do and milk the system just like they do.

holy ****, the spanish are milking the system?!? next will be those damned french. and you know the british will want in too.... we americans better get in on this before every other country does.

 

[MDGuy07]

I think a lot of med schools are so happy and willing to have URMs that they almost wouldnt care if they think you are lying. Just like MCAT and GPA scores help out their numbers, the amount of URMs they accept helps them out also. If you want to say you are a URM, they may be happy to take you- as it helps them out and makes them look good- without too much of a question. All that matters for the numbers is that you marked it on AMCAS, after that they could care less, as long as it helps their numbers.

Another thing to think about is- for schools with a closed file interview, there is absolutely no way to confirm someone's race. I think maybe if an interviewer looked at someone's file after the interview and saw that they marked URM...they would just be like " Oh I didnt realize this guy was hispanic. Great..bonus for us- we just got ourselves some more diversity. Lets accept this guy so we can hurry up and report it."

Quoted for truth.

Black and Hispanic people can easily get into medical school with 27 on the MCAT. The same can not be said for white and asians.

 

[Thundrstorm]

While on this subject....how much of a race do you have to be, to put yourself down as that race? Full, 1/2, 1/4????? My Great Grandfather name was Chief Tockohowe of the Cherokee, does this mean Im eligible to but down Native American? Not that Im going to, just a general question.

How do you identify in your everyday life? What do you consider yourself? Whatever the answer is, put that down on your application. It's not rocket science people.

 

[whattodowithmys]

I think a lot of med schools are so happy and willing to have URMs that they almost wouldnt care if they think you are lying. Just like MCAT and GPA scores help out their numbers, the amount of URMs they accept helps them out also. If you want to say you are a URM, they may be happy to take you- as it helps them out and makes them look good- without too much of a question. All that matters for the numbers is that you marked it on AMCAS, after that they could care less, as long as it helps their numbers.

Another thing to think about is- for schools with a closed file interview, there is absolutely no way to confirm someone's race. I think maybe if an interviewer looked at someone's file after the interview and saw that they marked URM...they would just be like " Oh I didnt realize this guy was hispanic. Great..bonus for us- we just got ourselves some more diversity. Lets accept this guy so we can hurry up and report it."

haha, you do make an interesting point. my question, in regards to the OP, how could they ever find out youre not hispanic if they see you and you look hispanic. even if they doubt you, its not like they could do a background check.. or could they 🙄

 

[ishabooboo]

While on this subject....how much of a race do you have to be, to put yourself down as that race? Full, 1/2, 1/4????? My Great Grandfather name was Chief Tockohowe of the Cherokee, does this mean Im eligible to but down Native American? Not that Im going to, just a general question.

The rule is 1/8th I hear, and I would do it if I were you. Speaking as an ORM (indian female), you should take anything u can get!

 

[medrad]

Are you serious?? level the playing field???? That was plain cheating and I would never want such a person to be my doctor who has no ethics. If he were really competitive then he wouldn't have to stoop to this level of cheapness. I do hope that he get caught and it is announced during his graduation ceremony.

Oh please, stop with the stuffiness. Everyone knows two wrongs do not make a right. It is absolutely wrong to give preference to "minorities" and it is absolutely wrong to manipulate the system in place. People ought to stand up and demand that there be no more racial preference at all in the admissions process.

 

[abcxyz0123]

all of the people who are against what the OP's friend did are only taking that stance because they don't have the balls to do the same.

 

[dnw826]

While on this subject....how much of a race do you have to be, to put yourself down as that race? Full, 1/2, 1/4????? My Great Grandfather name was Chief Tockohowe of the Cherokee, does this mean Im eligible to but down Native American? Not that Im going to, just a general question.

You may want to register. Contact the Cherokee nation. So long as he is documented, you can file the appropriate papers to get "your papers". I don't know if it's required to mark the box on an application, though.

 

[dnw826]

Heh. In The Army Now style.


As a side note, couldn't everyone just say that they're african american? I mean if they ask you prove it, just respond, according to the general biology class you made me take, as well as an anthropology class I took, the current out of africa hypothesis suggests we all are descended from africans. Then you could say you're part middle eastern since they all went through that region anyway. And then if you're scandanavian you could say you're native american since some of the vikings were there for a while, and all of the other classic natives are really asian anyway.

Keep in mind I wouldn't actually do this, but it's 6AM before my last final before I graduate and I havn't slept much, so my cynical ahole side is coming out.

https://www3.nationalgeographic.com/genographic/index.html

That's right my friend, we are all African-American (that is if you are in America, otherwise feel free to call yourself whatever it is people of color call themselves elsewhere). Which reminds me, what if your ancestors were one of the numerous Moors in Spain (who happened to be Black), such as with Queen Charlotte (wife of George III), are you "African-Moorish-Spanish", or just Spanish? I get SO confused with the PC.

 

[makingmd]

Sorry if I should know this, but what is a URM?

 

[MediMama23]

Sorry if I should know this, but what is a URM?

UnderRepresented Minority.

 

[browniegirl86]

Blacks and Spanish people don't seem to mind milking the system for what it is, so if you can milk the system then why wouldn't you?

If I could put down I was URM I would in a f*cking heartbeat....

👎 I'm surprised nobody has flamed you yet.

 

[MediMama23]

👎 I'm surprised nobody has flamed you yet.

He's not worth it, is all. 👍

 

[f_w]

There is actually a latino population in India. The portugese colonized an area around Goa and there are still plenty of people around there with typical latino names. I guess in the census they would be 'non-white hispanic'.

 

[browniegirl86]

He's not worth it, is all. 👍

Good then, maybe people really have stopped feeding the trolls

 

[CardiacIntensivist]

Blacks and Spanish people don't seem to mind milking the system for what it is, so if you can milk the system then why wouldn't you?

If I could put down I was URM I would in a f*cking heartbeat....

If I was Black or Spanish I would put down that I was only because I couldn't exactly put down Martian or anything 😉

Perhaps if I really did have a disadvantaged life I would try to use that leverage but I didn't so I won't. Besides, I feel like most people make so many judgements (good and bad ones) about you if you put down URM. If you got into a good school as a URM they automatically assume that that was the reason why, nevermind the good GPA and MCAT scores. That would aggravate me for the rest of my life. Wouldn't it you?

 

[LADoc00]

Ive known some people who faked it, even one guy who got caught. He was fluent in Spanish, worked as a translator for a low income inner city Hispanic clinic and volunteered at the undergrad Hispanic premed club....Crazy, they (med school adcoms) popped him by calling his mom. I had to admit tho he did more for the underserved community than 99% of the real URMs.

 

[McGillGrad]

You bet your fanny that it is absolutely fair and ethical to do that. If there is an advantage provided for someone based on anything but ability, then it is fair to exploit that advantage if the opprtunity presents itself. Theoretically speaking, I can speak enough languages and know enough about a variety of religions to become whatever the interviewer wants me to be if that helps. It is called a competitive edge and it is Darwin-101.

 

[DCDAWG]

If I was Black or Spanish I would put down that I was only because I couldn't exactly put down Martian or anything 😉

Perhaps if I really did have a disadvantaged life I would try to use that leverage but I didn't so I won't. Besides, I feel like most people make so many judgements (good and bad ones) about you if you put down URM. If you got into a good school as a URM they automatically assume that that was the reason why, nevermind the good GPA and MCAT scores. That would aggravate me for the rest of my life. Wouldn't it you?

The advantage given to a URM isnt because there is an assumption of a disadvantaged life....its because there need to be more doctors of certain races- its good for society, the healthcare communtiy, and the profession. Thats why they dont care if someone is a rich or poor URM. It just matters that they are a URM.

 

[CardiacIntensivist]

The advantage given to a URM isnt because there is an assumption of a disadvantaged life....its because there need to be more doctors of certain races- its good for society, the healthcare communtiy, and the profession. Thats why they dont care if someone is a rich or poor URM. It just matters that they are a URM.

You misunderstand me. I meant that I wouldn't put down that I had disadvantaged status (not related at all to URM). But now that I look at it, the transition is extremely unclear and the reply wasn't really on topic. Please ignore me as I am half studying for finals, half skimming SDN 😉

 

[f_w]

The advantage given to a URM isnt because there is an assumption of a disadvantaged life....its because there need to be more doctors of certain races- its good for society, the healthcare communtiy, and the profession. Thats why they dont care if someone is a rich or poor URM. It just matters that they are a URM.

One could dispute the notion that a non-disadvantaged physician of URM background is better than a run of the mill physician.

If they looked at your dads (or babydaddys) last 10 W-2s to determine who is disadvantaged and who is not, it would all make more sense. The way it is handled right now, it is a system based purely on race and as such racist.

 

[bobbybouche]

 

[Pkboi24]

WOW...I can't believe the number of people on this thread who are in support of what the OP's friend did. Honestly, if you have the credentials, you will get in somewhere. Don't run around looking for a scapegoat. No one took your spot because it wasn't yours to begin with.

There is a reason schools want URMs. In case you haven't noticed, America is an immigrant nation. Whenever the top rungs of society are dominated by one particular group (in this case, caucasian) there will be imminent oppression. Look at the larger picture. This is about more than becoming a physician. Obviously, they won't admit someone who is blatantly unqualified, and the number of spots reserved for them are still relatively small compared to those for ORMs.

Don't give me this "race shouldn't matter" BS. America is far from colorblind. In order to prevent the tyranny of the majority, there has to be some type of social intervention. This is why affirmative action exists.

Phew...got a little carried away there...

 

[adiddas125]

One could dispute the notion that a non-disadvantaged physician of URM background is better than a run of the mill physician.

If they looked at your dads (or babydaddys) last 10 W-2s to determine who is disadvantaged and who is not, it would all make more sense. The way it is handled right now, it is a system based purely on race and as such racist.

What orofice are you pulling those conclusions from?