MA in Psych or PsyD, urgent

[psytheo]

Already posted this in another thread, and if this is against the rules, please forgive me. I thought I'd create a thread though so it'd be more visible... "I've already read some of your posts and reviews concerning Cal Southern's PsyD program. However, I've recently been accepted into their program but some of your arguments against the school resonated a bit. I am still strongly considering, but I want to provide myself with the best opportunity. I want to be clinical psychologist and my main goal is to work in the Juvenile Halls or Kaiser until I can go into private practice. I already have a masters but not in psychology and no experience post undergrad. I know I want to be a psychologist. My question is: would you all suggest I go to a program like Azusa Pacific for a basic MA in Psychology and then apply for a funded PhD? Would the MA in Psychology even prepare me for an application to an APA accredited PhD or PsyD?? I have a 2 small children, I'm 32 and mid-career in the software and technology industry. My wife also has a bustling career here locally which makes it difficult for us to consider moving out of the area/state if or when i got accepted into a funded PhD. That's why Im considering Cal Southern because of the low cost and the fact that they're regionally and nationally accredited.. Please help since I need to accept my acceptance by Nov 30th."

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[WisNeuro]

Cal Southern is not APA accredited. I would strongly urge any student to not waste their money on degrees that are not APA accredited. They don't even list their outcomes on their website from what I can tell. Most likely because their graduates struggle to find work as psychologists compared to those with accredited degrees.

 

[GoPokes]

It's concerning to me that practicums and internship are listed as "optional"

 

[psytheo]

yes, I understand your concerns about Cal Southern. But what about the other question about whether an MA in Psychology from Azusa Pacific might suffice as sufficient graduate education prior to applying to an accredited PhD?

 

[psytheo]

Cal Southern is not APA accredited. I would strongly urge any student to not waste their money on degrees that are not APA accredited. They don't even list their outcomes on their website from what I can tell. Most likely because their graduates struggle to find work as psychologists compared to those with accredited degrees.

two mentors of mine, one who is in private practice and another academic and writer both said the degree from Cal Southern would be fine for my patients and my career depending on my actual skills as a clinician after graduation. Since the program allows its graduates to prepare for licensing, why is the APA accredidation That important, case by case, if I dont want to work for the VA or somewhere like that?

 

[psych.meout]

two mentors of mine, one who is in private practice and another academic and writer both said the degree from Cal Southern would be fine for my patients and my career depending on my actual skills as a clinician after graduation. Since the program allows its graduates to prepare for licensing, why is the APA accredidation That important, case by case, if I dont want to work for the VA or somewhere like that?

Well, that's the rub. APA accreditation is a relatively low bar to assure a minimum level of quality in a doctoral program. Do you really think that a program that can't even meet those minimal requirements will provide you with sufficient training to make you qualified and competent to practice clinical psychology?

Do you really feel comfortable accepting a program that's just "fine?"Do you feel that it would be doing justice to your clients and their rights by just going with what might be acceptable depending on the gamble of what you get out of an unaccredited program?

Would you feel comfortable with your physician having graduated from a med school that wasn't accredited, because they and a couple of their mentors felt it was "fine" for the context of where they wanted to practice? Would you want to take them at their word that their skills as a provider were proficient coming from such a program?

 

[WisNeuro]

two mentors of mine, one who is in private practice and another academic and writer both said the degree from Cal Southern would be fine for my patients and my career depending on my actual skills as a clinician after graduation. Since the program allows its graduates to prepare for licensing, why is the APA accredidation That important, case by case, if I dont want to work for the VA or somewhere like that?

Because many places, VA or not, will not hire you without an APA accredited degree. Most of the states in the US will not license you without it. Many professionals will not respect you, and therefore not refer to you. Etc etc...

 

[psytheo]

Well, that's the rub. APA accreditation is a relatively low bar to assure a minimum level of quality in a doctoral program. Do you really think that a program that can't even meet those minimal requirements will provide you with sufficient training to make you qualified and competent to practice clinical psychology?

Do you really feel comfortable accepting a program that's just "fine?"Do you feel that it would be doing justice to your clients and their rights by just going with what might be acceptable depending on the gamble of what you get out of an unaccredited program?

Would you feel comfortable with your physician having graduated from a med school that wasn't accredited, because they and a couple of their mentors felt it was "fine" for the context of where they wanted to practice? Would you want to take them at their word that their skills as a provider were proficient coming from such a program?

The school is regionally accredited by WASC which from my understanding is the major hurdle for legitimacy here in California/ on the West Coast. How it was explained to me was that the APA requires in person study whereby Cal Southern, like other reputable grad schools across the country (most not in psychology) offer fully online programs. Is the problem that its a doctorate and its 100% online?

 

[erg923]

The school is regionally accredited by WASC which from my understanding is the major hurdle for legitimacy here in California/ on the West Coast. How it was explained to me was that the APA requires in person study whereby Cal Southern, like other reputable grad schools across the country (most not in psychology) offer fully online programs. Is the problem that its a doctorate and its 100% online?

I don't know what the WASC even is...which means it is irrelevant to your ability to be successful in the field/career. And yes, the fact that its "online" is one of many problems. Do you really not seen the irony and incongruence about a program that trains people in a profession that largely involves intimate and nuanced interpersonal interaction that provides bare minimal interpersonal interactions?! I would hope that simple common sense tells anyone that that is a fundamentally terrible idea?

I would argue that the primary problem is not the school (as ridiculous as that program seems to be). Its your approach to this field. Look...this is a productivity based profession, as are most healthcare service professions...and training requires a commitment to science, service, geographic flexibility, and long-hours. The fact that you want to be psychologist but don't really want to do the things that 99% of successful psychologists actually do speaks to your true commitment and motivational level. I would not consider hiring someone who has made active efforts to avoid the sacrifices that 99% of the rest of us did, and who actively avoided rigorous training programs in favor of less rigorous training programs. Anything worth doing is worth doing right.

I would suggest reevaluating your actual need for a doctoral degree given your specific career goals. You can do a lot of MH work and treatment with a masters degree...so unless you have specific interests and goals that require a doctorate, this is all sounding like huge waste to me in your case.

 

[psych.meout]

The school is regionally accredited by WASC which from my understanding is the major hurdle for legitimacy here in California/ on the West Coast. How it was explained to me was that the APA requires in person study whereby Cal Southern, like other reputable grad schools across the country (most not in psychology) offer fully online programs. Is the problem that its a doctorate and its 100% online?

Again, would you be ok with your physician having 100% online medical degree?

 

[smalltownpsych]

I would never recommend Cal Southern. The answer to your other question is that the things you need to get into a PhD program are research experience, high gpa, and a high gre. Students that don't know how to get into grad school are who diploma mills like Cal Southern like to prey on.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Again, would you be ok with your physician having 100% online medical degree?

Agreed.

Not only is it an online degree, but the program isn't accredited. WASC acred. is an accreditation of the university and not any specific program within the university. There is no acred. body in the field of psychology that acknowledges Cal Southern. The two largest/only legitimate acred. bodies for programs in the field of psychology are the American Psychological Association (APA) and Psychological Clinical Science Accreditation System (PCSAS). Unfortunately many programs (I'd argue predatory programs, but that's just my opinion) gloss over this distinction when they talk about accreditation. They technically disclose it (or they should), but it is up to the student to understand what the distinction actually means.

While California law does not explicitly exclude programs that lack acred. from a recognized body acred. body for psychology, it is up to the applicant to prove that their training is sufficient, and it is at the discretion of the licensing board whether or not to accept someone's credentials as sufficient. It is far from a certainty that someone graduating from a program that lacks acred. could have both of these things fall in their favor.

 

[BuckeyeLove]

but not in psychology and no experience post undergrad.

this evidence, in conjunction with the fact that you got in, should make it unequivocally clear as to why attending there would be bad news bears.

 

[psytheo]

Thanks for all the supports everyone. Has anyone in California ever worked with anyone from this school?

 

[erg923]

Thanks for all the supports everyone. Has anyone in California ever worked with anyone from this school?

I think this is the wrong question to be asking...cause sometimes fat guys date supermodels.

How bout: What does the outcome data suggest is the modal outcome (job setting) and earning for a individual who matriculated from this program?

 

[smalltownpsych]

Thanks for all the supports everyone. Has anyone in California ever worked with anyone from this school?

Yes and they misrepresented themselves as a psychologist despite being unable to attain a license to practice as a psychologist and operated under a LPC license. They also would lead people to think they went to USC by mumbling the words a bit. Pretty impressive how they did it as I almost thought they said University of Southern Cal myself which is what led me to find out about Cal Southern. I wonder if that is something they teach you there or if this individual had to acquire that skill on their own.

 

[psytheo]

Yes and they misrepresented themselves as a psychologist despite being unable to attain a license to practice as a psychologist and operated under a LPC license. They also would lead people to think they went to USC by mumbling the words a bit. Pretty impressive how they did it as I almost thought they said University of Southern Cal myself which is what led me to find out about Cal Southern. I wonder if that is something they teach you there or if this individual had to acquire that skill on their own.

Was this person trying to acquire their license in CA. or another state as was turned down? Because, one thing I do know it that this school prepares students and has the requirements for licensure in California since they re regionally accredited.

 

[WisNeuro]

It looks like no one's advice will sway your opinion here. So, instead, we'll just urge you to ask this program what its outcome stats are, considering they seem to go to great lengths to hide them from plain sight. What is their licensure % from past graduates? What are their EPPP pass rates? What is the starting income graduates receive? These are things that are incredibly important to know. I have a pretty good idea on why these are not posted anywhere on their site.

 

[erg923]

Was this person trying to acquire their license in CA. or another state as was turned down? Because, one thing I do know it that this school prepares students and has the requirements for licensure in California since they re regionally accredited.

Think you missed the point of that post, bro.

Again, instead of searching for anecdotes why don't you seek outcome stats that provide the range of outcomes and the actual modal outcome?

 

[AcronymAllergy]

This caught my eye:

The PsyD also is a degree that can lead to licensure as a clinical psychologist; CalSouthern’s online PsyD program meets the educational requirements for licensure in California and CalSouthern alumni have been successful in obtaining licensure via the PsyD program. (The requirements vary state-by-state, and we encourage you to inquire about your state’s policies. Of course, we’re happy to answer any questions you might have regarding licensure.)

The bolded portion could be taken to mean that they meet only the educational (i.e., coursework) requirements. I would imagine that CA, like every other state, requires psychologists to have clinical training.

Another poster mentioned that the practicum is defined as optional. Skimming the website, this seems to be the case. They state that students are responsible for finding/securing their own practica, with possible assistance from a "bank" of available sites. This is likely one reason the site is not APA-accredited, as APA requires that training programs maintain a level of quality control over their practicum sites. Without this, there's no telling that the experiences you're receiving are appropriate.

To that same point, the website also states, "If students are currently practicing in the field, they are often able to apply this work to meet the practicum requirements." Again, this is not in keeping with APA standards (to the best of my knowledge). And many states do not allow "double-dipping" of training hours in this way. Not sure whether that applies to CA, but it could get a person into trouble if so. For example, if you're practicing as an LCSW, then the tasks you're performing are not appropriate for training as a psychologist, even if you're "supervised" by a licensed psychologist.

They also only allot 2 semesters for practicum training. Let that sink in. Two semesters. 175 clinical hours. That's it.

 

[WisNeuro]

They also only allot 2 semesters for practicum training. Let that sink in. Two semesters. 175 clinical hours. That's it.

That is beyond appalling. OP, if you do, for some reason, go this route, make sure you get the highest level of liability insurance available, because you will get crucified if someone sues for a competence related violation.

 

[psytheo]

good stuff everyone. And I will definitely be asking them about their outcome stats as noted by several of you. I definitely need to know this info and it should be enlightening by how they respond.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

It looks like no one's advice will sway your opinion here. So, instead, we'll just urge you to ask this program what its outcome stats are, considering they seem to go to great lengths to hide them from plain sight. What is their licensure % from past graduates? What are their EPPP pass rates? What is the starting income graduates receive? These are things that are incredibly important to know. I have a pretty good idea on why these are not posted anywhere on their site.

The updated data from the EPPP pass rates was just posted in the WAMC thread.

Cal Southern wasn't even listed….

 

[T Brown]

Already posted this in another thread, and if this is against the rules, please forgive me. I thought I'd create a thread though so it'd be more visible... "I've already read some of your posts and reviews concerning Cal Southern's PsyD program. However, I've recently been accepted into their program but some of your arguments against the school resonated a bit. I am still strongly considering, but I want to provide myself with the best opportunity. I want to be clinical psychologist and my main goal is to work in the Juvenile Halls or Kaiser until I can go into private practice. I already have a masters but not in psychology and no experience post undergrad. I know I want to be a psychologist. My question is: would you all suggest I go to a program like Azusa Pacific for a basic MA in Psychology and then apply for a funded PhD? Would the MA in Psychology even prepare me for an application to an APA accredited PhD or PsyD?? I have a 2 small children, I'm 32 and mid-career in the software and technology industry. My wife also has a bustling career here locally which makes it difficult for us to consider moving out of the area/state if or when i got accepted into a funded PhD. That's why Im considering Cal Southern because of the low cost and the fact that they're regionally and nationally accredited.. Please help since I need to accept my acceptance by Nov 30th."

Not sure if it was stated or not, but just an FYI APA will not allow anyone from a non-accredited program to enter internship match.

 

[deleted343839]

It's easy to talk yourself into something you badly want, but you've gotten a lot of sound advice in this thread and if that doesn't change your mind, I'm afraid nothing will. Both of the degree programs you've mentioned are of poor value and I wouldn't advise anyone to attend either. Consider the alternative that this isn't the year to be making this leap in your education, and re-evaluate your options later.

 

[erg923]

good stuff everyone. And I will definitely be asking them about their outcome stats as noted by several of you. I definitely need to know this info and it should be enlightening by how they respond.

The have a page of "notable alumni." I have never heard of any of these people (I thought "notable" in that context was suppose to mean well known or famous in the field?). One of the 5 is reported as actually working as a psychologist.

Its quite obvious from a 5 minute perusing of the site (would hope you have spent much longer since you applied and are/were contemplating acceptance) that this is a program that targets people that want a "doctorate" in psychology but don't really plan on being or working as a "psychologist"

To me, this is financially idiotic, bordering on mentally aberrant, behavior.

 

[smalltownpsych]

Think you missed the point of that post, bro.

Again, instead of searching for anecdotes why don't you seek outcome stats that provide the range of outcomes and the actual modal outcome?

The fact that they missed the point does indeed prove the point. 😀

 

[ClinicalABA]

Was this person trying to acquire their license in CA. or another state as was turned down? Because, one thing I do know it that this school prepares students and has the requirements for licensure in California since they re regionally accredited.

Ok- then accept admission. Best of luck- you will need it to get into that upper tail of the distribution of break even students from places like UCS.