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Made a mistake...please help me

Discussion in 'Pharmacy' started by shroomysoup, Mar 26, 2007.

  1. shroomysoup

    shroomysoup Junior Member
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    So I finished a community rotation and I thought I had passed the class, but the preceptor talked to the person in charge of the Introductory to Practice Experience and informed her that I had fallen asleep during one of the visits. I had fallen asleep only because I was studying for an exam late into the night and the rotation visit was at 8 AM. The preceptor was busy doing his job as a pharmacist so I sat down for awhile and ended up falling asleep. Of course, this is not professional so now I have to think of at least two projects that will allow me to pass the social and professional responsibility part of the course. Can someone help me think of some projects to do? I'm not quite sure how to go about this.
     
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  3. Dr.Inviz

    Dr.Inviz Membership Revoked
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    Education 101: Adderal.
     
  4. sdn1977

    sdn1977 Senior Member
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    I'm going to be blunt and you're not going to like it, but YOU have to come up with projects to qualify you to pass your social & professional RESPONSIBILITY portion of your class.

    Now - you must take RESPONSIBILITY & come up with these on YOUR own.

    You are very, very lucky that they've given you a chance to pass at all.

    Get serious, take responsibility & go find topics within pharmacy which deal with professionalism.
     
  5. Trancelucent1

    Trancelucent1 Gator Girl :)
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    Agreed! Some mornings I have to get up at 4:30am to be at my rotations and I don't fall asleep! Furthermore what are you going to do in the real world when you work late the night before and then are expected to be at work the next day? Good luck with your project, but I think it's completely unprofessional to ask us to come up with an idea for YOUR project.
     
  6. twester

    twester Senior Member
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    Since you came here for advice, I have two pieces:

    1. Get enough sleep. I see this all the time at school. Student doesn't prioritize studies and ends up doing it at the last minute. Your job is school. Study first, play/work later. Go to sleep as needed to be awake and alert the next morning (for most people that means 7 or 8 hours).

    2. Don't ever admit such an obvious lapse in judgement in a public forum. When a lion spots a wounded gazelle at the watering hole, he eats it for dinner (not that there are predators in this forum, of course, but you get the point). Just cover your ass and don't further what was probably a humiliating situation by telling everybody about it.

    Good luck. Take this as a challenge to overcome and get it done.
     
  7. SELDANE

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    There's a couple of things you can do. First, find a local elementary or Jr. High school where you can talk to students about drug saftey, what pharmacists do, etc.... Next, look for a local indigent clinic and ask the director to help you secure information about how the cost of free primary care is a lot less expensive than waiting for those without healthcare to present in the ER after having waited for treatment ( if not one of these, then something along these lines).
    As for your situation, ok you fell asleep for your meeting with your preceptor. But to be honest, your sin of tiredness is nothing compared to the pompass attitude of your preceptor who obviously feels insulted because he or she couldn't capture the respect of a student. Don't worry too much, just get through the rotation and go on to the next.
     
  8. MdBrndPhrmcst

    MdBrndPhrmcst Keeping it real....
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    I'm sure I'll catch some flack for this but I respectfully disagree with the above posters...

    The student admitted they fell asleep. It happens. They did not say that they curled up on the floor and relaxed. For all we know they may have fallen asleep sitting upright. They were up late studying for a test and this unfortunate situation happened...I had a situation on one of my rotations where a preceptor layed a ton of work on me at 6 in the evening and it had to be done by next morning. I got one hour of sleep that night.. it had nothing to do with me being irresponsible....the only way I stayed up was by guzzling 2 cups of coffee in the morning. Maybe the student is lazy, maybe they dont take pharmacy seriously..but maybe they DO.

    Is this something that should be condoned? no.. but the student is just asking for ideas.. they are not asking anyone to do the project for them...they need some advice/some guidance.

    As far as ideas..I cant think of any right now.. if i do I'll post some.. I sure hope you r the type of student who is worth me defending..
     
  9. All4MyDaughter

    All4MyDaughter SDN Mommystrator
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    My pre-school parent organization is always after me to put together a presentation on how medications can be confused with other things in the household (candy, etc). For example: blue poweraide looks like windex. Kids can get them mixed up. Sort of a drug-safety thing for parents. I've seen info about this on the web and in parenting magazine. Perhaps you could do something like that?

    Good luck!
     
  10. WVUPharm2007

    WVUPharm2007 imagine sisyphus happy
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    I actually agree with the above. F' it all, man, I'm paying them, not the other way around. Academia is the only place on Earth where you pay people to torture you and you become their subordinates. The entire system is a bloody crock of crap. My very first preceptor got snippy at me because I was working some shifts at my retail job while doing rotations and she thought the rotations should be first priority. **** that, food and shelter is my first priority. Then the rotation. Academia can temporarily take second place or pay my rent, one or the other....and God knows they ain't paying the rent.

    This Maslow dude even made a pyramid about it. Sleep, food, and shelter were at the bottom for a reason. If they unreasonably deprive you of sleep, you should be able to sue the **** out of them for screwing with your natural homeostatic ****...fo rizzle.
     
  11. 12345

    12345 New Member
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    I think some of you are being too harsh, he said his preceptor was doing something else and he fell asleep. I know a few times at mine when my preceptor had me basically doing busy work and just watching educational videos on the computer my eyes started to become very heavy.
     
  12. wrek92

    wrek92 UF COP 2007
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    Consider yourself lucky that you have been given the opportunity to redeem yourself.

    In my 3rd professional year, there was a 4th year student who was on his Academic rotation assisting our instructor in our therapy class. We happened to have verbal defense that particular day so he was just sitting down off to the side of the classroom. Guess what? He dozed off and our assistant campus director sitting at the back of the classroom noticed he did too. He ended up FAILING the rotation and having to graduate a month later than his classmates. The fact that he was allowed to graduate was not a sure thing either. UF has a no 'F' policy like most if not all pharmacy schools and he would have had to petition an Academic Committee. Nothing like making a mistake and then having to beg for forgiveness from professors and Deans. :(
     
  13. WVUPharm2007

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    More complete bull****. It's a ****ing physiological function. Nobody falls asleep on purpose. Obviously they are either sleep depraved or have something else going wrong in order for that to happen. God I hate academia.....
     
  14. sdn1977

    sdn1977 Senior Member
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    OP - again, you've found yourself lucky some on here have given you help on your assignment and since you've not returned, perhaps you are working on them right now.

    However, I think perhaps some have missed the reason I & some others have chosen not to give you suggestions on rectifying your mistake. Since almost all of you are students, I'll give you some examples of exhaustion & real life pharmacists. Perhaps your community preceptor should have addressed this with you at the time your sleepiness occurred, but as some have pointed out in other places - not all pharmacists are educators.

    I'll give you some very, very real examples -

    If you work in a teaching hospital, a new set of residents comes on every July. Many studies have documented the medication error rate, which are caught by the way, go way up during this period of time. Most are caught because they have more senior residents who don't allow drug orders to be signed off until they are reviewed. But, at the end of the year, they are given a bit more leash, deservedly. However, again - the error rate goes up & it is up to pharmacists to catch these errors. As busy as a hospital pharmacist is, there is plenty of "downtime" to get sleepy & often repetitive work - which also equals inattentive. This combination of residents (who work 24-30 hrs at a stretch) and pharmacists who are also inattentive because of sleepiness can (& has) resulted in pt morbidity.

    Now....talk to anyone who is a parent. Each one can recount the number of times they've been up at night with a sick &/or fussy child. If we're lucky, we have a co-parent who can help relieve us. But, on occasion, it will sometimes happen that you've both been up & you both have to be at work (for whatever reason - you have pts scheduled (my SO) or I'm the only pharmacist on at 6AM (my situation)...you have to be able to be alert & attentive because again.....the pt is at risk. You have to find ways to stay alert in the worst of circumstances.

    Finally, I'll give you the biggest & most recent, in my memory, incident of fatigue combined with other factors. In 1995, a community pharmacist misfilled an rx which should have been Ritalin with Glynase for a child. The child died. This pharmacist had filled this rx at the end of his 12 hour workday in a 60 hour workweek. The pharmacist had also lost his wife the previous month to cancer, so was preoccupied as well. (He was inattentive "only" because it was the end of the shift & he was still grieving - similar to your "only I was up late studying"???) There were mitigating factors which resulted in the final decision, but the end result was, the family was awarded $16 million dollars for pharmacist negligence & poor supervision of this pharmacist by his employer. The pharmacist lost his license, job & retirement - and a child died.

    The whole point of the lesson here (forgive the length) - is you indeed made a mistake which you admit to. Your supervisor did what she had to do - she reported your mistake, which if employers have learned nothing else from the case in 1995 - they must do this one thing (this has NOTHING to do with the preceptor gaining the respect of the student!!). The suggestion to sue is meaningless & won't end up with you learning anything, yet further alienating those who are trying to teach you something.

    Altho you took responsibility for your mistake, you are wanting help in finding topics on which to rectify your mistake. Just like managing sleepiness, which we all must do at times (sick children, tired residents, poor work schedules), you must also take responsibility for finding a way to rectify your lapse. Coming up with topics is the professional part of taking responsibility. Did you get that part?

    Altho many have given you suggestions on social topics, I'm guessing your advisor is wanting something specifically on some professional responsibility. Had I been your preceptor, I would want you to prepare & give an inservice to me & all your classmates on drug errors, the ways pharmacists are causative &/or facilitators in them & the ways to mitigate them. This is in no way a public "punishment", but a way to educate & hopefully give suggestions to those who've yet to experience &/or get "caught" in the same bind you find yourself. In fact, this is the reason most employers make their incident reports available to the staff - as a learning tool.

    Again, I'm sorry to be harsh & I'm sure your community preceptor was as well - thus you were not confronted at the time. But....this is truly very serious business we're in & there are times we do have to burn the candle at both ends - not our choice. But...you've definitely learned your lesson on the tired part, now....go and learn your lesson on the professional part - do this one on your own. Perhaps, you'll find yourself educating some of your colleagues as well & finding something within yourself you didn't know you had.

    As hard as this is, it will make you a better pharmacist & perhaps a great preceptor one day.

    I do wish you the best of luck!
     
  15. slimcutt

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    I think the real issue here is that 12345's avatar is too small and we can't really see the details. How bout a blown up pic hmmmm?
     
  16. WVUPharm2007

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    If that happened to me, I would find them and hire a hitman to burn their house down with them inside it. Who the **** profits off the death of their child like that? The only exception is if they wanted to teach he pharmacist and pharmacy a lesson and gave the money to charity - that I might understand. Otherwise - deep down I guarantee you they think losing their kid was the best thing that ever happened to them. And that is the most sickening thing of all.

    I feel bad for that RPh.
     
  17. All4MyDaughter

    All4MyDaughter SDN Mommystrator
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    I don't know. I have lost a very close family member to medical negligence, and there is no amount of money in the world I wouldn't pay for one more hour with her. But it doesn't work that way.

    If my child died, it would be 1000x worse, I guarantee.
     
  18. sdn1977

    sdn1977 Senior Member
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    You've missed the point entirely - but, I didn't give details of the award deliberately since that wasn't the point. But, since you latched onto this one small part.....

    In actuality, the verdict, which was upheld under appeal, was $5 million jointly from the pharmacist & the pharmacy for the loss of the child (the child was 7 - there is a formula for calculating loss of life according to age & at age 7, the child was assumed to have all prospects available) & only $20,000 to the parents. This $20,000 was for the loss of their fraternal association with the child. Again - this follows a formula which has previously been upheld in negligent deaths of loved ones under many circumstances, not just medical.

    The remainder was in punitive damages which were to the employer corporation solely - not the pharmacist. This was divided up as $10million for the punititive loss of the child & $1 million for the punitive loss to the parents. (This is why it IS the pharmacy's responsibility to report negligent activities such as getting "drowsy" or "falling asleep").

    Remember - I said there were mitigating circumstances. The OP might do well to look into what these were since they are tied part & parcel with the whole concept of professionalism. But, again...the OP needs to do this assignment & I've already learned my limits of fatigue.

    As hot-headed as your reply was, it was misguided & inappropriate given the circumstances of this case. Who knows - it might do well for all students to look into professionalism & what happens when you don't live up to it - perhaps even you... what else have you got to do these next 6 months????
     
  19. WVUPharm2007

    WVUPharm2007 imagine sisyphus happy
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    Play lots of video games.

    No matter what the ins and outs of the case were - it's blood money. The entire legal system is ******ed. Well, your kid died...here, take $15 million. WTF is that? Stupid, that's what.
     
  20. sdn1977

    sdn1977 Senior Member
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    Except that YOU'LL benefit because your employer cannot make you work 12 hours without a break nor can they make you work >40 hrs in a work week. This is the reasonable man's equivalent to your opinion to go "burn them down in the house"....but your anger is directed to the parents when it was actually the pharmacist & more importantly, the employer who allowed the pharmacist to perform under fatigued conditions (in addition to other issues). This $11 million damage to the employer may not have burned their house down, but it surely did make them take responsibility for their employees & the manner in which they work.

    H*ll - in CA, you can't work >8hrs without being paid overtime & our lunches are legislated.

    Likewise, you'll be protected as an employee when you must work with someone who is not able to stay professional due to whatever circumstances because like it or not - everyone in that pharmacy got smeared with the results of this. Oh - and at the time, which you're too young to remember, so did the rest of us.

    Punitive damages are just that - to punish & in this case it was for a number of reasons....again - look the case up. It is a good case for all those who have made mistakes - which I'd say is just about every pharmacist I know.
     
  21. gaba101

    gaba101 Doctor
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    I'd like to do a search on incident in particular. Any names or key words you can give me to google or even a link to an article?
     
  22. sdn1977

    sdn1977 Senior Member
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    You can google "pharmacist negligence" & get lots of links.

    It was also reported in US Pharmacist in a very brief form in about 2000, I think.

    I'd have to go back to my files to find the actual case name...but, its easily located online.
     
  23. WVUPharm2007

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    Since when has burning somebody's house down been unreasonable?
     
  24. gaba101

    gaba101 Doctor
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  25. Mentis

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    Doesn't sound like anything a little coffee in the morning can't fix!
     
  26. tussionex

    tussionex Pharmacist
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    you should not be punished, period. this is simply another example of academia [ and possibly your preceptor] abusing their power over the helpless student. it does not matter if you were up late studying, or ill, or with a fussy child. school [and pharmacy] is not the be all and end all of a person's life...or, at least, it shouldn't be

    to punish someone for falling asleep is absurd. you admitted your "mistake"...perhaps your school should evaluate its rotation sites and curriculum demands if student are falling asleep on the job. they should not be fostering an environment where one is "punished" for sleeping. sleep deprivation is a real danger in ALL areas of healthcare and your actions should be used as a lesson to the students [and preceptors] as one of time management skills. your school should be teaching that professional responsibility begins with acknowledging an error, which you did. evaulation of error causes should be instituted, not punishment of the student.
     
  27. Tessalon

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    I haven't fallen asleep on a rotation yet, but some preceptors seem to forget to give us a job to do. I don't know which is worse...meaningless busywork that no one will ever grade or read or benefit from, or having absolutely nothing to do and spending hours on the internet checking e-mails and new SDN forum posts.:oops:
    I too am so sick of rotations and paying to work.
     
  28. pharmboy30

    pharmboy30 order entry monkey
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    lots of Mt Dew!
    One nap shouldn't mean failure of a whole rotation. That is ******ed.
    I had one rotation our preceptor would leave at 3pm, but made us stay there until 4:30, so I got good at staring at the wall. My anger and frustration increased my energy level so I didn't fall asleep.

    unfortunately, Academia is not always logical, but you gotta jump through their hoops, unrealistic or not.
     
  29. NDGirl

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    I'm not sure if I agree. I feel that rotations are supposed to be treated as a job. A real job. Like the ones we will soon have after we graduate. In a real job setting, if a pharmacist were to fall asleep, there would be consequences. Quite possibly, if it happened more than once the person could lose their job. In a real work setting a person will be punished for falling asleep on the job, why shouldn't a student doing rotations also be punished? These rotations are supposed to teach us what it is like to be a pharmacist, so I think we should be held up to the same standards. Since a student is not an acutal employee however, they might not have felt comfortable punishing them in the work setting and felt that it would be better for the school to impose the punishment. I think the school is being very fair in this case. They could have done a lot worse things...like give a failing grade.
     
  30. WVUPharm2007

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    Rotations are nothing like a real job. There's this entire aura of slavery and second class citizenry involved that some don't seem to understand. If I was treated like a donkey as in rotations as I am in the real world, I would leave said real world job. The falling asleep thing is a manifestation of being treated like a donkey.
     
  31. tussionex

    tussionex Pharmacist
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    i completely agree. rotations are nothing like a real job. second class citenzry runs rampant in academia.
    my point was that if students are sleeping on rotations, the site is either too full of scut work that is keeping students up to all hours or simply not fullfilling enough to make staying awake on top of being a busy pharmacy student possible. students on rotations are not slaves.

    and, i know plenty of pharmacists who have slept on the job. ever hear of the overnight shift? and, if you need to grab a quick nap on your break to be better able to do your job [and not make errors], more power to you.
     
  32. Farmercyst

    Farmercyst From the shadows
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    So, if I get this right, if you're being treated like a second class citizen, then it's okay to be unprofessional and you shouldn't get punished for it? Maybe that's not what you meant, but that's how I read it.

    I just don't find being tired a valid excuse. I've done graveyard, pulled doubles, stayed up all night with my daughter puking her guts out and gone to class, and then work, and stayed awake, no caffeine, no NODOZ, no anything. It sucks, it wears, but I do what I have to. I take the grades I earn by prioritizing studying time to accomodate sleep (when I get it) and play and family and work. Just take what you get, deal with it as best you can and if you think it's unfair discuss it with the appropriate people.

    Let's just say that rotations aren't "real" work, or a "real" job. It's still in a professional environment. Think about it this way, if you ever do "Bring an obscure relative to work day" your boss will expect them to behave in a manner that is not disruptive. While some misbehavior may be tolerated, certain actions will not. Your preceptor is participating in bring a student to work day. You get to do menial tasks while your preceptor does what they do for a living. If you misbehave it's on them. Therefore if you get them in trouble, somebody gets to pay for it when they get back to school. Sleeping on the job is one of those actions that I don't think many employers will tolerate (even if it is "just" a student.)
     
  33. Tuck

    Tuck Senior Member
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    Personally, I think this is ridiculous. Falling asleep during a rotation is not the brightest thing ever, but certainly this action is uncalled for. Any precepter who is worthwhile should take the time to sit down with the student if there is a problem before taking it to the next level. In addition, clearly the precepter is not providing adequate instruction if a student has the time to sit down and fall asleep. I have actually had some similar issues where I was "in danger" of failing my rotation. The precepter e-mailed the course co-ordinator and said I had missed 3 weeks in a row, and I got an e-mail from her saying I was going to fail the rotation. The first week I was ill and had scheduled a make-up day for the following month, the next week it snowed and the professor excused all absences for the day and emailed/called the preceptors as did I, and the third week I was gone for my yearly community outreach activity that was scheduled at the beginning of the year. A simple phone call and some professional courtesy would have cleared things up in less than a minute, but as a student I was not extended that courtesy. I was absolutely furious and requested a change in rotation sites. In the end, I decided to stay after clearing up the issue. However, after having a variety of preceptors I strongly feel that those that are worth anything take the time to communicate with the students they are supposed to be helping learn the profession.
     
  34. tussionex

    tussionex Pharmacist
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    this post was more towards the point i was making. if there is a problem with student/preceptor dynamics, it should be addressed at that level before going to a higher level [the school]. certainly the expectations of the rotation should be re-addressed as well as time management issues that the OP seems to have had.

    i also had to repeat rotation days. for personal reasons, i chose to commute to a site. i missed some days due to illness as well as to bad weather [new york winters aren't always kind]. instead of warning me, i got an email a week into the next rotation stating that if i didn't repeat the days i missed, i would fail the previous rotation. no indication of that fact [my imminent failure] was given to me by my preceptor. he and his ego simply chose to go whining to the college instead.
    if we're supposed to be so "professional" why didn't he handle it between the two of us? you know, like "professionals"

    i DID repeat the days, but my preceptor was out of town. so, i did scut work for the rest of his office and learned nothing from him. what he did is an example of nothing more than a power play.

    ps - the point of my posts has been that we need to eliminate this martyrdom complex that seems to be fashionable with healthcare professionals.....you know, all in the name of being dedicated? as in "i was up for three days straight with my baby, but i managed to study for 48 of those hours and worked 3 graveyards my next day back to work"
    sleep deprivation just to prove your dedicated or "professional" does nothing more than endanger patients.
     
  35. WVUPharm2007

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    If people are sleep deprived, period, the system needs to be retooled. It's obvious the system is more screwed up than Charles Manson, so I'm really not sure what the point of trying to make the illogical logical is.
     
  36. Farmercyst

    Farmercyst From the shadows
    Pharmacist Moderator Emeritus 10+ Year Member

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    The power play aspect I do understand. It's one thing to be confronted by the preceptor about the situation and be made aware of consequences of you actions, or at the very least that the actions were unprofessional. It's completely different to be broadsided by the information after the fact.

    More like 48 hrs straight, 90 minutes study, 16 work, 5 1/2 lecture, 9 lab, 2 posting on SDN, 2 commuting, 8 mopping, wiping, bathing to get puke out of blankets, clothes, hair, etc. give-or-take.:meanie. I never said it was smart, just that it could be done. I do agree that martyrdom seems popular. This is something I forced upon myself, not something someone forced on me. So it's not quite the same. Notice how well I prioritized. 2 whole hours on SDN, I can really be lame.
     
  37. WVUPharm2007

    WVUPharm2007 imagine sisyphus happy
    Pharmacist 15+ Year Member

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    That ain't nothin', back in my day, I worked 145 hours, counted to infinity, ran 456 miles backwards while dragging a Buick, invented the squeegee, saved a group of American Hostages in Iran, and had to manually reverse the spin of the Earth to add hours to the day to fit it all in - all in the same day. AND I DIDN'T fall asleep the next day, either!!

    I'm so much more awesome and stressed than you.
     
  38. Farmercyst

    Farmercyst From the shadows
    Pharmacist Moderator Emeritus 10+ Year Member

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    Just remember, NO CAPES. (I make time for Disney movies too.)
     

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