Major change from Ph.D. to J.D.??

[nat0326]

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I have been actively pursuing a career in Clinical Psych for the past 3 years and I felt quite certain that a Ph.D. in Clinical Psych was for me. Recently, I have been second-guessing this decision and considering law school as another option.

I obtained great research experience as an undergrad. I was fortunate to work as an RA at two very well-known schools. At one I worked on a depression prevention program and at the other I worked with two full-time faculty members, developing interventions for adolescent's at high-risk for developing depression and also working with school-based interventions. I obtained this research experience while pursuing my BA with a double-major in Psychology and English Literature. In addition to my research experience, I had approximately a 3.5 overall GPA, with a strong upward trend (I received one 3.0 followed by a 3.8, 3.9, 3.7, etc. the rest of my semesters; my GPA had been weighed down by this poor semester Freshman year). I applied for Clinical Ph.D. programs my senior year, and I did not receive one interview despite my prior experiences. I know that it is difficult to get into a Ph.D. program straight from undergrad, and although this was quite discouraging, I picked myself up and rigorously applied to full-time RA positions in order to strengthen my CV. I ended up landing an amazing full-time research position with a professor in a well-known Clinical Ph.D. program. I know my research experiences are good, but I don't believe these experiences will EVER land me a spot in a Clinical Ph.D. program. This uncertainty has been lending to my "second guessing" this career path.

I feel as though I have dug my own grave in a sense-- acquiring only research experiences during undergrad-- and I have backed myself into a corner, leaving Clinical Psych as my only option. Recently, I have felt quite strongly that this is the wrong career choice for me. Although I would HATE to throw away the connections I have made and the experiences I have gained, something inside of me is screaming that 5 years in a Ph.D. program is not going to pay off for me in the long run -- particularly financially (I come from a lower middle-class family who cannot support me or help me through the doctoral degree at all). I know that I shouldn't pursue any career because of the potential of a high salary, but I fear that all of the efforts I have put into Clinical Psych could be redirected towards a more profitable avenue. Does anyone have any advice? 😕😕😕

Sorry for this rambling post!!! But any advice would be helpful!!!

 

[WisNeuro]

If you're worried about finances, I'm not sure a JD is the route. That job market is more over saturated than ours. And, you'll accrue more debt in your schooling than you would for a Ph.D.

http://articles.latimes.com/2013/apr/01/local/la-me-law-grads-20130402

If you're only doing it for money. Pick something else besides those two and good luck with that. On the other hand, think about what you want to do and go for that. Better to be comfortable and happy with your job than well off and hate what you do.

 

[PHD12]

If you're worried about finances, I'm not sure a JD is the route. That job market is more over saturated than ours. And, you'll accrue more debt in your schooling than you would for a Ph.D.

http://articles.latimes.com/2013/apr/01/local/la-me-law-grads-20130402

To be fair, the median income for lawyers is still significantly higher than for clinical psychologists. Lawyers are at 112k-120K median while psychologists earn 68-87K median (87k median is with 22 years of experience according to APA). Length of training is 7-8 years for PhD vs. 3 years for lawyers so you also need to consider time away from the workforce.

Someone who can get into a top, funded PhD program should be able to get into a top law school. My friends who graduated from top law schools and went the corporate route are getting starting salaries of 165K first year out and the entire class is employed in top programs. There is no PhD that will ever earn that early career. This is just about fiances though not interest.

 

[edieb]

If you can get into a top tier law school, then I would say forego the clinical psychology Ph.D. If you cannot get into a top law school, i wouldn't do either : )
Although choosing a career isn't all about money, I always tell people that EVENTUALLY everyone is going to get at least a little tired of their chosen career path and will want to shift their attention towards their personal lives (e.g., hobbies, having and rasing kids, spending time with your spouse or partner). If you receive your Ph.D. in clinical psychology you will likely have to work 2 jobs to make a decent living (even the V.A. a high paying employer, doesn't pay enough to comfortably support a family if you're single). Additionally, to land a job in our field, you will likely have to move to some undesirable area of the country (job markets in big, desirable locations are almost impossible to land) and, with the salary you will earn as a psychologist, you will likely never make up for the years away from the workforce.

 

[WisNeuro]

If you can get into a top tier law school, then I would say forego the clinical psychology Ph.D. If you cannot get into a top law school, i wouldn't do either : )
Although choosing a career isn't all about money, I always tell people that EVENTUALLY everyone is going to get at least a little tired of their chosen career path and will want to shift their attention towards their personal lives (e.g., hobbies, having and rasing kids, spending time with your spouse or partner). If you receive your Ph.D. in clinical psychology you will likely have to work 2 jobs to make a decent living (even the V.A. a high paying employer, doesn't pay enough to comfortably support a family if you're single). Additionally, to land a job in our field, you will likely have to move to some undesirable area of the country (job markets in big, desirable locations are almost impossible to land) and, with the salary you will earn as a psychologist, you will likely never make up for the years away from the workforce.

I don't know anyone in the VA who has to work 2 jobs to support a family (for psychologists anyway). I know of one colleague who supports children and a stay at home mom that way. I know it's not a lot, but you can live comfortably on 85k.

 

[PHD12]

I don't know anyone in the VA who has to work 2 jobs to support a family (for psychologists anyway). I know of one colleague who supports children and a stay at home mom that way. I know it's not a lot, but you can live comfortably on 85k.

It really depends where in the country. If you want to be a psychologist and live in LA, SF, DC, NYC region, that type of money does not go far even without kids. Psychologists work 2 jobs often in these locations. Even at the VA they often need to supplement income. The VA salary is only a good deal if you are in a low cost of living area, and sadly it's the highest paying of the clinical jobs out there. If you are at the Manhattan VA you are maxed out at 116K I believe even after 30 years of work experience. That is an entry level salary for the private sector in that location so you really cannot live decently.

 

[WisNeuro]

It really depends where in the country. If you want to be a psychologist and live in LA, SF, DC, NYC region, that type of money does not go far even without kids. Psychologists work 2 jobs often in these locations. Even at the VA they often need to supplement income. The VA salary is only a good deal if you are in a low cost of living area, and sadly it's the highest paying of the clinical jobs out there.

In LA, a GS-13 at Step 1 is 91k, step 10 is 118k. Step 1 puts you at the 75th% for household income in the country. Step 10 puts you at the 84th%.

 

[PHD12]

In LA, a GS-13 at Step 1 is 91k, step 10 is 118k. Step 1 puts you at the 75th% for household income in the country. Step 10 puts you at the 84th%.

You max out at 118K after many years. Plus, stats for household income overall are irrelevant in CA where the cost of housing is 2-4 times the national average, particularly cost of buying any sort of property. Middle income people are also taxed at 40% in CA because state tax alone comes out to 10% of my income. Sales tax is also close to 10%. Gas can be up to 5.00 per gallon at times. Your groceries alone can cost double out here depending on where you are moving from. Trust me, that 118K that you believe is so high after 30 years of work experience is going to feel like earning 55K in texas.

Plus, household income is based on averages in the US. Average person in the US is not living in LA nor does he have a college degree. Only 30% of people in the US have even a college degree and most people in this country do not live comfortably even if they are not classified as "poor" according to federal guidelines.

 

[WisNeuro]

You max out at 118K after many years. Plus, stats for household income overall are irrelevant in CA where the cost of housing is 2-4 times the national average, particularly cost of buying any sort of property. Middle income people are also taxed at 40% in CA because state tax alone comes out to 10% of my income. Sales tax is also close to 10%. Gas can be up to 5.00 per gallon at times. Your groceries alone can cost double out here depending on where you are moving from. Trust me, that 118K that you believe is so high after 30 years of work experience is going to feel like earning 55K in texas.

Plus, household income is based on averages in the US. Average person in the US is not living in LA nor does he have a college degree. Only 30% of people in the US have even a college degree and most people in this country do not live comfortably even if they are not classified as "poor" according to federal guidelines.

You can step up quite a bit faster than that. Getting boarded is an automatic step up in itself. If you get into admin in your dept, you get GS-14. Anyway, I was just giving the numbers for some perspective. You guys make it sound like psychologists are living in abject poverty, which is probably fairly insulting for those that actually are.

 

[PHD12]

You can step up quite a bit faster than that. Getting boarded is an automatic step up in itself. If you get into admin in your dept, you get GS-14. Anyway, I was just giving the numbers for some perspective. You guys make it sound like psychologists are living in abject poverty, which is probably fairly insulting for those that actually are.

I agree with you that the VA is a good salary overall, especially if you have another income. I don't think it's that great in an expensive location though. However, most clinical jobs do not pay as much as the VA. And yes many therapists, social workers and psychologists who work at community mental health centers, agencies, and some in early stage PP do live in poverty. They may not meet technical definition, but with student loans and high cost of living locations (where most of jobs are located), many cannot make ends meet without getting into more debt. The bottom 20% for therapists and psychologists is quite low.

 

[edieb]

I agree with you that the VA is a good salary overall, especially if you have another income. I don't think it's that great in an expensive location though. However, most clinical jobs do not pay as much as the VA. And yes many therapists, social workers and psychologists who work at community mental health centers, agencies, and some in early stage PP do live in poverty. They may not meet technical definition, but with student loans and high cost of living locations (where most of jobs are located), many cannot make ends meet without getting into more debt. The bottom 20% for therapists and psychologists is quite low.

I was a V.A. psychologist right out of graduate school As a GS-13, I was making $3900 a month. This was in a state with NO income tax or city tax, so this is a little on the high side As a single person, that is good but let's break it down to give a real world perspective

Rent: 800/Month
Utiilties including cable and internet: 200/Month
Car Payment: 450/Month
Car Insurance: 100/Month
Health Insurance: 50/Month
Student Loan Payment: 200/Month

This leaves a nice amount, around $2100 a month for a single person but if one has 2 children, this leaves less than $700 each and this does not factor in the extra health insurance costs, daycare, etc. Also, remember you were out of the workforce for 10 years so you have to make up for that lost income so you can retire. In addition, your ABPP costs over $500 a year and around $1000 to take so your 1-step pay increase is pretty much gone.

 

[edieb]

In LA, a GS-13 at Step 1 is 91k, step 10 is 118k. Step 1 puts you at the 75th% for household income in the country. Step 10 puts you at the 84th%.

Bad statistics: you can't compare a salary in Los Angeles against a salary in Helena, Montana and the rest of low cost of living areas in the USA and say the salary in Los Angeles puts you in the top xx% in the country because the costs of living are not even close to equal.

 

[HomeworkHelper]

I have been actively pursuing a career in Clinical Psych for the past 3 years and I felt quite certain that a Ph.D. in Clinical Psych was for me. Recently, I have been second-guessing this decision and considering law school as another option.

I obtained great research experience as an undergrad. I was fortunate to work as an RA at two very well-known schools. At one I worked on a depression prevention program and at the other I worked with two full-time faculty members, developing interventions for adolescent's at high-risk for developing depression and also working with school-based interventions. I obtained this research experience while pursuing my BA with a double-major in Psychology and English Literature. In addition to my research experience, I had approximately a 3.5 overall GPA, with a strong upward trend (I received one 3.0 followed by a 3.8, 3.9, 3.7, etc. the rest of my semesters; my GPA had been weighed down by this poor semester Freshman year). I applied for Clinical Ph.D. programs my senior year, and I did not receive one interview despite my prior experiences. I know that it is difficult to get into a Ph.D. program straight from undergrad, and although this was quite discouraging, I picked myself up and rigorously applied to full-time RA positions in order to strengthen my CV. I ended up landing an amazing full-time research position with a professor in a well-known Clinical Ph.D. program. I know my research experiences are good, but I don't believe these experiences will EVER land me a spot in a Clinical Ph.D. program. This uncertainty has been lending to my "second guessing" this career path.

I feel as though I have dug my own grave in a sense-- acquiring only research experiences during undergrad-- and I have backed myself into a corner, leaving Clinical Psych as my only option. Recently, I have felt quite strongly that this is the wrong career choice for me. Although I would HATE to throw away the connections I have made and the experiences I have gained, something inside of me is screaming that 5 years in a Ph.D. program is not going to pay off for me in the long run -- particularly financially (I come from a lower middle-class family who cannot support me or help me through the doctoral degree at all). I know that I shouldn't pursue any career because of the potential of a high salary, but I fear that all of the efforts I have put into Clinical Psych could be redirected towards a more profitable avenue. Does anyone have any advice? 😕😕😕

Sorry for this rambling post!!! But any advice would be helpful!!!

It's easy to start second guessing yourself, but it's very difficult to get into grad school right out of undergrad. I did, but just by the skin of my teeth--I interviewed and was accepted by one program. If I had not succeeded the first round, I would have done just what you did and gotten an RA position. You didn't mention GRE scores, but if they are good enough, I would imagine you would have a good chance at getting in the next time you apply. It sounds like you have some good research experiences. You would have to revamp all your application materials and apply widely to schools that are a good fit with your interests and previous experience. I imagine your application will benefit nicely from a letter from the supervisor of your RA position. Like others have said, unless you have decided you aren't into Clinical Psych anymore (interest-wise), a JD is going to put you in the hole financially for a while. At least with a Phd program, there's a good chance you won't have to pay for school AND earn a stipend, instead of law school, where you will both have to pay for coursework and your living expenses through those years. Maybe sit down and do the math--pick a couple psych programs and law schools you like, add up the associated pay (or lack thereof) and costs. That might be helpful if finances are a big concern.

 

[WisNeuro]

Bad statistics: you can't compare a salary in Los Angeles against a salary in Helena, Montana and the rest of low cost of living areas in the USA and say the salary in Los Angeles puts you in the top xx% in the country because the costs of living are not even close to equal.

I am aware of how statistics work, but since people were quoting median incomes, I used median incomes as a comparison. Median household income of LA is 56k btw, so you're still way above that.

 

[edieb]

I am aware of how statistics work, but since people were quoting median incomes, I used median incomes as a comparison. Median household income of LA is 56k btw, so you're still way above that.

Good pont but I would contend that you're not really when you consider your colleagues have been saving for retirement, etc. for many years while youve been in school and they have had many years of income that you've foregone

 

[WisNeuro]

Good pont but I would contend that you're not really when you consider your colleagues have been saving for retirement, etc. for many years while youve been in school and they have had many years of income that you've foregone

Money management for retirement is widely variable. A vast majority of Americans do not have adequate savings for retirement. I do not think that is profession specific. The VA for example has a nice retirement system. Other then that, too many variables to account for to make vast generalizations.

 

[paramour]

I know a handful of PhD students who left after a year (or two or three) and went to law school. They finished their education well before anyone else in their psych cohorts and seem to be doing considerably better financially, quality of life, and all that jazz (and, no, they didn't go to "top tier" law schools).

 

[WisNeuro]

I know a handful of PhD students who left after a year (or two or three) and went to law school. They finished their education well before anyone else in their psych cohorts and seem to be doing considerably better financially, quality of life, and all that jazz (and, no, they didn't go to "top tier" law schools).

I'm sure some do just fine. But it's that roughly 22% that are working part-time or not at all after graduating that would give me pause. I know plenty of people with JD's making well under 75k a year.

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/113941/big-law-firms-trouble-when-money-dries#
http://www.theatlantic.com/business...ed-and-how-it-could-come-back-to-life/272852/

 

[Ollie123]

To be fair, many of the financial issues raised in this thread seem to be more problems with situation and geographic regions than with psychology. There is a good reason that being a single parent is considered extremely difficult. Almost no one can "afford" to live in CA these days.

I think WisNeuro is trying to point out that these things are pretty poor ways of judging the health of a field. I have many friends with excellent jobs in relatively hot fields...and not a one of them could afford to buy a house in San Diego and feed five kids while their spouse stays at home. I don't think the fact that we can't either is a catastrophe or some tremendous injustice. I think the problem stems from the fact that we always compare ourselves to medicine, which is really one of the only fields where you ARE guaranteed a fairly sizable income...and even that may change as there is increased recognition of how out of whack US health care economics are and efforts are made to bring them in line (for better or worse). If you cut out the now fairly sizable chunk of folks who never would have made it into the field were it not for FSPSs and are filling many of the lowest-salary/mid-level type positions, are we really starving in the streets? Everyone I know who has graduated recently is doing just fine, living solidly middle/upper-middle class lifestyles, buying homes, etc.

I'm not arguing we should be complacent with current salary levels or that we shouldn't advocate for better compensation (we should). I do think a dose of reality is needed on these boards though. Many people work as hard as we do or harder and are just as smart or smarter. Income adjustments and cost of living don't scale linearly, so be prepared to make sacrifices if you want or need to live in NYC/CA/etc. Psychology is not medicine or wall street, but nor is it bagging groceries. Those who can't handle the above should certainly be steered away from psychology, but will likely find their options extremely limited.

 

[WisNeuro]

I think WisNeuro is trying to point out that these things are pretty poor ways of judging the health of a field. I have many friends with excellent jobs in relatively hot fields...and not a one of them could afford to buy a house in San Diego and feed five kids while their spouse stays at home. I don't think the fact that we can't either is a catastrophe or some tremendous injustice. I think the problem stems from the fact that we always compare ourselves to medicine, which is really one of the only fields where you ARE guaranteed a fairly sizable income...and even that may change as there is increased recognition of how out of whack US health care economics are and efforts are made to bring them in line (for better or worse). If you cut out the now fairly sizable chunk of folks who never would have made it into the field were it not for FSPSs and are filling many of the lowest-salary/mid-level type positions, are we really starving in the streets? Everyone I know who has graduated recently is doing just fine, living solidly middle/upper-middle class lifestyles, buying homes, etc.
.

Exactly, everyone seems to be saying "screw this, go make some money!" And giving arbitrary advice on completely different fields. Like telling someone, "all you have to do is be the CEO of a Fortune 500 company and you'll finally be able to support your family."

Beyond that, I think some of the information given is misleading. I was just trying to respond to the specific question, about the JD possibility, which I honestly think is headed to a worse future than psych.

 

[paramour]

I'm not telling anyone to do anything. I think both fields have the potential to be sh*tty.

The JD individuals I know worked their arses off and networked considerably to get where they are in the past few years. (Sound familiar?)

To tell anyone they shouldn't pursue a JD rather than psych because they might fail is ridiculous. They might fail in psych too. 👎

There are no guarantees regardless of which path one chooses. Figure out which one works better for you and go for it. There's the possibility you may be miserable and/or fail either way. Or you may succeed.

Sheesh.

 

[WisNeuro]

There are no guarantees regardless of which path one chooses. Figure out which one works better for you and go for it. There's the possibility you may be miserable and/or fail either way. Or you may succeed.

Sheesh.

I totally agree with you. I just think people were making option X sound like as soon as you got your law degree it was all about rainbows, lollipops, and riding unicorns to work. I'm just advocating for a realistic portrayal of the options.

 

[PHD12]

Not exactly because what you are not considering is the fact that psychology has a longer length of training than most professional fields AND is lower paying than most other graduate degree fields (aside from social work and humanities PHD programs). Does this mean that everyone in psychology is doomed and nobody should pursue the field? NO. There are psychologists who are obviously doing very well. However, it does mean that people need to consider the length of training (especially years out of the workforce), starting salaries, and median salaries as one factor when deciding between our field and other fields. It is simply a fact that on AVERAGE the JD degree is more economically viable. There is a significantly higher median salary and significantly shorter length of training (4 years less). How can you argue with that? And personal stories about JD's earning less than 75K don't mean anything because I can also quote you many clinical psychology PhD/PsyD graduates who are working in unpaid postdocs and others who are licensed and earning 20K work because they can't find a FT job. I understand that it makes people feel better to imagine that all lawyers are homeless and cannot find jobs. Every field can be ****ty for people who are not doing well, but on average it is tougher to make money in psychology in comparison to other graduate degrees.

Plus, as a field we need to stop comparing ourselves to the average income and average person in the US. The average person only has a HS degree and lives in a low cost location. Psychologists tend to work in more expensive areas since most of the jobs and therapy markets tend to be in those areas. If you look at where licensed psychologists tend to live most are in CA, NYC/NJ area. CA actually has the most licensed psychologists.

 

[WisNeuro]

Plus, as a field we need to stop comparing ourselves to the average income and average person in the US. The average person only has a HS degree and lives in a low cost location. Psychologists tend to work in more expensive areas since most of the jobs and therapy markets tend to be in those areas. If you look at where licensed psychologists tend to live most are in CA, NYC/NJ area. CA actually has the most licensed psychologists.

Actually I think in the last census, the number of people with a degree has been edging up, something like 40% now. That demo has been changing quite a bit in past few decades.

And if we wanted to compare more apples to apples, Ph.D's earn between 61-78k with under 10 years of experience, that across Ph.D's. So, we're right in there. Is that a more apt comparison?

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Actually I think in the last census, the number of people with a degree has been edging up, something like 40% now. That demo has been changing quite a bit in past few decades.

And if we wanted to compare more apples to apples, Ph.D's earn between 61-78k with under 10 years of experience, that across Ph.D's. So, we're right in there. Is that a more apt comparison?

I was going to say something similar--that compared to most other Ph.D.'s out there, I wouldn't imagine we're doing too terribly, particularly given the relative flexibility (employment-wise) of our degree. This is of course anecdotal, but I have friends with doctorates in multiple other fields (most of which are STEM), and they generally aren't instantly walking into six-figure jobs, either.

 

[Ollie123]

Does CA have the most jobs or just the most crappy schools graduating 200 people a year who aren't willing to leave CA? (though I guess many of them are struggling to get licensure so wouldn't necessarily be counted...). The presence of unpaid post-docs suggests that at the very least there are not many job "openings" in places like that. That's sort of what I'm getting at - CA and NYC are the anomalies with horrific job markets, large numbers of mediocre to terrible schools trying to capitalize on location - why do we keep referencing everything to those places? I'm guessing there aren't many agriculture jobs in Manhattan or bioengineering gigs in rural Idaho, but that's an awful means of judging the health of either of those industries. I've never heard of an unpaid post-doc outside CA. I'm in a large city in a nice locale and we struggle to fill post-doc slots. Every single graduate of our program I'm in contact with had no problems whatsoever finding post-docs - in most cases a multitude of options they had to choose between.

RE: Income, what the above said. Most of my social circle is in STEM (weighted towards computer science). Admittedly most have master's degrees, not doctorates but its not like they have people throwing money at them upon graduation. Competition is stiff, entry level positions often pay terribly or force people into contract work (the engineering equivalent of adjuncting), etc. None of this is a good thing, but I think we would all benefit from some perspective on what a realistic expectation is for a salary.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Does CA have the most jobs or just the most crappy schools graduating 200 people a year who aren't willing to leave CA? (though I guess many of them are struggling to get licensure so wouldn't necessarily be counted...). The presence of unpaid post-docs suggests that at the very least there are not many job "openings" in places like that. That's sort of what I'm getting at - CA and NYC are the anomalies with horrific job markets, large numbers of mediocre to terrible schools trying to capitalize on location - why do we keep referencing everything to those places? I'm guessing there aren't many agriculture jobs in Manhattan or bioengineering gigs in rural Idaho, but that's an awful means of judging the health of either of those industries. I've never heard of an unpaid post-doc outside CA. I'm in a large city in a nice locale and we struggle to fill post-doc slots. Every single graduate of our program I'm in contact with had no problems whatsoever finding post-docs - in most cases a multitude of options they had to choose between.

RE: Income, what the above said. Most of my social circle is in STEM (weighted towards computer science). Admittedly most have master's degrees, not doctorates but its not like they have people throwing money at them upon graduation. Competition is stiff, entry level positions often pay terribly or force people into contract work (the engineering equivalent of adjuncting), etc. None of this is a good thing, but I think we would all benefit from some perspective on what a realistic expectation is for a salary.

In addition to what I mentioned above re: income, I'd actually written up a post earlier this morning (before my internet crapped out) essentially mentioning exactly what Ollie does above: perhaps the large number of psychologists in CA/NYC/etc. isn't because that's where the jobs are, but because that's simply where those psychologists have chosen to live.

I don't know of many people in any field outside of medicine (and heck, this actually even includes some highly-specialized physicians) who are confident in their ability to find a high-paying position in a geographically-desirable, high cost of living area without being open to relocating. Heck, the higher up and more-specialized people become, the more willing they need to be to move (locations and/or companies) in order to advance (e.g., because the higher-ups in the positions they want aren't leaving anytime soon).

Although as WisNeuro mentioned (either here or elsewhere), that doesn't mean we shouldn't be advocating for better compensation, better employment prospects, and (most importantly in my mind) higher and more-standardized training standards. But as a field, relative to many other occupations, I don't know that we have it horribly bad.

 

[cara susanna]

That's sort of what I'm getting at - CA and NYC are the anomalies with horrific job markets, large numbers of mediocre to terrible schools trying to capitalize on location - why do we keep referencing everything to those places?

Yes--like I've said, I attend grad school in a location that most find undesirable, and which has a high need for mental health professionals. I don't know of any graduates from my program who didn't find a job in the field.

 

[PHD12]

I was going to say something similar--that compared to most other Ph.D.'s out there, I wouldn't imagine we're doing too terribly, particularly given the relative flexibility (employment-wise) of our degree. This is of course anecdotal, but I have friends with doctorates in multiple other fields (most of which are STEM), and they generally aren't instantly walking into six-figure jobs, either.

But most clinical psychologists don't go into academia but practice. Our degree is a professional degree that requires licensure so we should be comparing our salary to similar professions with similar lengths of training since the vast majority do not go into academia in the end.

STEM graduates near me have a starting salary of 160K at large companies without bonus, plus they get stock options. Even BA and MA level folks are starting with six figures in stem in CA. I know this because I am good friends with several people who are involving in hiring STEM folks out here. If a psychologist can program and knows computer science, he/she may be able to get a data scientist position with that salary.

Most common job for clinical psychologists ends up being private practice, and for many people this is out of necessity. If you are going to start your practice are you going to go to a location where people value therapy and are willing to pay for it (NYC, Boston) or are you going to move to North Dakota where nobody goes to therapy and it's not part of the culture? I think this is why many people end up in these areas.

 

[Ollie123]

I think you just proved our point...160k starting is outrageous and waaaayyyy more than the median salary for mid-career professionals in STEM disciplines or what most hope to see even at the end of their career. If we shouldn't be comparing our salary to the national average, we also shouldn't be comparing it to the top 5% of earners in disciplines with a reputation for being the HIGHEST paid degrees (comp sci) and acting like the field is a disaster because we aren't earning the same. Again...all I'm doing is making a case for realistic expectations here and that is a great example of it.

Entering PP out of "necessity" again seems to be a CA thing. If we weren't pumping out way more grads than the field can sustain and insisted on people being trained as actual psychologists with commensurate diversity in skillset. I'd also place a serious bet that someone in a mid-sized city in the midwest would have a MUCH easier time starting up and maintaining a PP than someone in CA for any number of reasons.

 

[WisNeuro]

Entering PP out of "necessity" again seems to be a CA thing. If we weren't pumping out way more grads than the field can sustain and insisted on people being trained as actual psychologists with commensurate diversity in skillset. I'd also place a serious bet that someone in a mid-sized city in the midwest would have a MUCH easier time starting up and maintaining a PP than someone in CA for any number of reasons.

Agreed, in the two regions I've lived and worked in (Midwest, South) I haven't seen this necessity in colleagues at all. I also have no personal experience of any former classmates who did not find a job within a few months at the most following internship or postdoc.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

But most clinical psychologists don't go into academia but practice. Our degree is a professional degree that requires licensure so we should be comparing our salary to similar professions with similar lengths of training since the vast majority do not go into academia in the end.

STEM graduates near me have a starting salary of 160K at large companies without bonus, plus they get stock options. Even BA and MA level folks are starting with six figures in stem in CA. I know this because I am good friends with several people who are involving in hiring STEM folks out here. If a psychologist can program and knows computer science, he/she may be able to get a data scientist position with that salary.

Most common job for clinical psychologists ends up being private practice, and for many people this is out of necessity. If you are going to start your practice are you going to go to a location where people value therapy and are willing to pay for it (NYC, Boston) or are you going to move to North Dakota where nobody goes to therapy and it's not part of the culture? I think this is why many people end up in these areas.

At least in my own direct experiences in the rural south, folks in "less-urban" areas tend to value therapy quite a bit, although they might not have as much exposure to it. Perhaps many of the psychologists in the cities you've mentioned assume that folks in rural areas won't value therapy, though, hence the glut of psychologists in NYC, Boston, LA, SF, etc.

 

[PHD12]

I think you just proved our point...160k starting is outrageous and waaaayyyy more than the median salary for mid-career professionals in STEM disciplines or what most hope to see even at the end of their career. If we shouldn't be comparing our salary to the national average, we also shouldn't be comparing it to the top 5% of earners in disciplines with a reputation for being the HIGHEST paid degrees (comp sci) and acting like the field is a disaster because we aren't earning the same. Again...all I'm doing is making a case for realistic expectations here and that is a great example of it.

.

This is a normal salary in an expensive part of CA for STEM btw. Not unusual at all and in line with cost of living. I am not comparing our salary. You guys were saying that people in STEM don't earn high salaries and I am saying...well, it depends. The people that i know in STEM with these salaries are not even superstars. These are post-PhD/MA salaries in my location. There is a bonus plus equity as standard practice. You are just shocked because you seem to think that everyone is earning a low salary for some reason. There is a reason why the housing market is so expensive in CA and other major urban areas. The salaries are higher and in line with cost of living, just not for some professions (including psychologists).

Find me a professional degree with a similar length of training and a starting salary of 50-60K? I guess we are looking at humanities PHD's then, but that is an academic degree, not a professional degree like ours. Social workers have a lower median salary, but the length of training is different.

 

[WisNeuro]

Find me a professional degree with a similar length of training and a starting salary of 50-60K? I guess we are looking at humanities PHD's then, but that is an academic degree, not a professional degree like ours. Social workers have a lower median salary, but the length of training is different.

Ph.D's are academic degrees.

 

[PHD12]

Ph.D's are academic degrees.

Not the case for clinical psychologists though. It's either a scientist-practitioner model or practitioner model, depending on the program. I guess there are a few clinical science models, but not many of those. What percentage of psychologists have a primarily academic position? 50% of our field is made up of PsyD graduates and a good number of PhD programs also emphasize clinical work.

 

[Ollie123]

I think my point isn't getting through here. I'm not saying STEM folks can't get high salaries. I am saying that this board always seems to say "Psychology pay is terrible - you can't afford to feed your family!" when many times what people really mean "The psychology job market in San Francisco/NYC/<insert other> is awful so if you want to live there and aren't the best of the best you will have to sacrifice some in quality of life". Its just proving my point that you keep bringing it back to salaries in California. The world does not revolve around California and there are lots of other places people live. We all know the job market there sucks for us. I've never said otherwise. I'm saying that's a problem with California, not with psychology in general (though I suppose indirectly through the proliferation of schools there). Maybe its worth the sacrifice, maybe its not but its not up to the job market to cater to individuals whims. When I read some of these threads it seems akin to folks majoring in finance at Nebraska and then getting mad that Wall Street won't move to Lincoln. We all have preferences for where we live. Often the best jobs for us aren't there. In this situation, we have a choice to make. California is not a good place for psychologists right now. That doesn't seem a terribly important factor for determining the overall health of a field any more than job options/growth potential in finance in Lincoln, Nebraska are for deciding whether or not finance is a viable career path.

 

[WisNeuro]

Ph.D's are, by definition, academic degrees. It just so happens that you can do clinical work with them. And roughly twice as many Ph.D's graduate each year than PsyD's. At least according to some data from Norcross. Although I would expect the number of PsyD's to increase until APA finally decides to give a damn about training practices and limit the Alliant's and Argosy's.

 

[PHD12]

Ph.D's are, by definition, academic degrees. It just so happens that you can do clinical work with them. And roughly twice as many Ph.D's graduate each year than PsyD's. At least according to some data from Norcross. Although I would expect the number of PsyD's to increase until APA finally decides to give a damn about training practices and limit the Alliant's and Argosy's.

Those numbers are outdated. It seems the the majority of clinical psychologists are coming from professional schools and PsyD's are a majority now, specifically in clinical psychology. Here is the latest from APA workforce statistics, but it is 5 years old so assume more PsyD's now. I am surprised by the numbers. Am I reading this accurately?

"Most recently, in 2007-2008, data indicated that 1,721 PsyDs were awarded. As usual, most (1,408 or 82%) were awarded in Clinical Psychology. Data from Graduate Study in Psychology revealed that there were 2,100 HSP PhDs awarded in psychology in 2007-2008. Fifty-nine percent or 1,237 of these were Clinical PhDs. Overall, PsyDs represented 45% of the HSP degrees awarded in psychology in 2007-2008 and 53% of the Clinical doctorates awarded.

The number of PsyDs awarded in Clinical Psychology has increased since 1987 from 327 to 1,408 in 2007-08, over a 300% increase. Professional schools now account for a greater proportion of all Clinical doctorates (PsyD and PhD) than was the case in 1987 (55% vs. 37%, respectively). The proportion of all PhDs awarded by professional schools has not changed measurably since 1987. It was 8.7% in 1987 and 8.3% in 2008. Clearly, the growth in Clinical doctorates in professional schools has been in the PsyD degree."

http://www.apa.org/workforce/snapshots/2010/psychology-degrees.aspx

 

[WisNeuro]

So perhaps one day 50% of the psychologists in the field will be PsyD's now that they are outpacing Ph.D's, but currently, I imagine it skews towards Ph.D much more heavily considering they were still getting degrees before 1987 and up until recently have been the lion's share.

 

[edieb]

You can choose to compare the PhD to an M.D. in psychiatry because they can both be either health care delivery or academics are similar in length of training or you can choose to compare the clnical psychology Ph.D. to other Ph.D.s because they are both academic degrees. Thus, to make ourselves feel better, some of you are basically saying to compare our degree to insanely low paying PhDs fields... Wow, that make sense!👍

 

[WisNeuro]

You can choose to compare the PhD to an M.D. in psychiatry because they can both be either health care delivery or academics are similar in length of training or you can choose to compare the clnical psychology Ph.D. to other Ph.D.s because they are both academic degrees. Thus, to make ourselves feel better, some of you are basically saying to compare our degree to insanely low paying PhDs fields... Wow, that make sense!👍

It makes just as much sense as comparing it to MD's. They are just vastly different training experiences, with vastly different responsibilities. I don't need to justify to myself that a neurosurgeon makes more than I do, they should. Also, when you throw in their residencies, they are actually in school longer than we are for the most part.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

It makes just as much sense as comparing it to MD's. They are just vastly different training experiences, with vastly different responsibilities. I don't need to justify to myself that a neurosurgeon makes more than I do, they should. Also, when you throw in their residencies, they are actually in school longer than we are for the most part.

They also tend to be ultimately more responsible for more life- and/or health-threatening conditions and situations, and to have to deal more frequently with call.

In my mind, practicing psychologists tend to fall somewhere between "other" more-academic Ph.D.s and M.D.s in terms of what we do. Not regarding "respect," "difficulty," or anything like that...just in terms of the actual services that we deliver in a variety of settings. I honestly wouldn't want to deal with half the crap that most physicians do.

 

[edieb]

They also tend to be ultimately more responsible for more life- and/or health-threatening conditions and situations, and to have to deal more frequently with call.

In my mind, practicing psychologists tend to fall somewhere between "other" more-academic Ph.D.s and M.D.s in terms of what we do. Not regarding "respect," "difficulty," or anything like that...just in terms of the actual services that we deliver in a variety of settings. I honestly wouldn't want to deal with half the crap that most physicians do.

Ive seen both side of the coin as a pracitcing psychologist and now as a medical/prescribing psychologist. Believe me: the medication management is SO SO SO much easier than providing 45 minute blocks of EBTs. Since starting this gig about 1.5 years ago, I have been called 2 times. In addition, I don't think most V.A. psychiatrists are ever "on call" unless they work on an inpatient unit and then they get compensated more.

 

[WisNeuro]

Ive seen both side of the coin as a pracitcing psychologist and now as a medical/prescribing psychologist. Believe me: the medication management is SO SO SO much easier than providing 45 minute blocks of EBTs. Since starting this gig about 1.5 years ago, I have been called 2 times. In addition, I don't think most V.A. psychiatrists are ever "on call" unless they work on an inpatient unit and then they get compensated more.

If we are singling out psychiatrists when talking about MD's, I would argue that the problem is more that they are vastly overpaid more so than we are underpaid for similar services.

 

[edieb]

If we are singling out psychiatrists when talking about MD's, I would argue that the problem is more that they are vastly overpaid more so than we are underpaid for similar services.

I would definitely agree with your statement about being overpaid. Unlike in Louisiana, where Rx Psychologists bill under the same codes as physicians, the billing codes for Rx psychologists in New Mexico are in between that of a master's level provider, such as NP, and a MD/DO psychiatrist. Even with this in-between compensation rate and working < 40 hours a week seeing Medicaid patients, I can't keep up with how much money I make. I will likely go part time next year because even at that income level, I will making WAY over double what I made as a GS-13 in the V.A.

Sometimes when I am seeing patients, I keep a mental tally of how much I am making and by the time lunch rolls around, I am in shock at how much I have netted in just 4 hours and it doesn't even feel like work. I have managed to pay off all my student loans, my parents medical bills in less than a year and have a huge savings account.

I remember when I would 100 percent EBTs and assessment, how tired I would be at the end of the day. However, for some reason, med management isn't that draining. Part of it is that there are algorithms for it and the other part is that you don't have that many choice points like one does in EBT.