Major difference between DO and MD?

[womp]

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i just wanted to point something out, i'm not sure if its been addressed earlier in the thread or not but the title "Doctor" is only an academic title conferred to an expert in their field. while do and md are both called doctor, they also possess the more important title "physician".
saying they're both 'doctors' is like saying a dnp is the same as a do or md.
and we all no that's not true.

You're an idiot. In English there is a clear distinction between the title Dr. (those with doctorates) and doctor as a profession. In the UK, most doctors have only a bachelor degree (MBBS), yet are still called "doctors." See this British Medical Association site for instance: http://www.bma.org.uk/

If you're aiming to educate others, at least get your facts straight, instead of posting the same ignorant logic that the DNPs post. It's bad enough that we have rabid nurses getting degree mill doctorates and calling themselves doctors based on your logic, we don't need medical students and real doctors believing in that revisionist logic too.

The notion that physicians are only called doctors because the shrewd medical profession hijacked the PhD doctorate degree into a medical doctorate is utter ignorance. First of all, the MD (Medicinæ Doctor) predated the PhD. And calling a physician a doctor is a totally different usage than calling economist Paul Krugman a doctor. Yes, we have something called homonyms in English.

 

[DocEspana]

You're an idiot. In English there is a clear distinction between the title Dr. (those with doctorates) and doctor as a profession. In the UK, most doctors have only a bachelor degree (MBBS), yet are still called "doctors." See this British Medical Association site for instance: http://www.bma.org.uk/

If you're aiming to educate others, at least get your facts straight, instead of posting the same ignorant logic that the DNPs post. It's bad enough that we have rabid nurses getting degree mill doctorates and calling themselves doctors based on your logic, we don't need medical students and real doctors believing in that revisionist logic too.

The notion that physicians are only called doctors because the medical profession hijacked the PhD doctorate degree into a medical doctorate is utter ignorance. The MD first of all predated the PhD. And calling a physician a doctor is a totally different usage than calling Paul Krugman a Dr.

Actually... no. PhD existed for a good 60 years before MD. And for that matter, JD existed before MD too (but they don't choose to go by doctor). So while the title of doctor does indeed date back to italian scientists and healers of the 1200's, they were called magisters back then and doctors was simply the legal honorary they achieved by proving their abilities proficient. Somewhere along the line doctor became the self-proclaimed title too, but it was always just an honorary as the highest level of a specific education. MD itself is not that old of a degree.

He's totally right now. Even in modern vernacular (can't speak on europe, only America here) doctor is a title of educational achievement. Physician is a job title. You are a physician, your degree is doctor. That we put "Dr." before the our names is as meaningful as a lawyer putting "Esq." at the end. Neither of these are the job they posses, both have to be pronounced to properly address the person if they choose to utilize it, and they are both honorary titles due to their degree held not the occupation (with esquire being a sign you have reached the highest echelon of a vocational degree. Doctor is considered the highest level of a scientific/philosophic degree). So go easy on him, he's not wrong. He's just embracing the strict definitions rather than the common assumptions.

Obviously I'm ignoring the obvious fact that when people say doctor they mean physician. We all know that. But it doesn't mean they are right in making that assumption a 1:1 thing, because it isn't. All oranges are orange round fruits, but not all orange round fruits are oranges (clementines, grapefruits, kumquats).

 

[womp]

Actually... no. PhD existed for a good 60 years before MD. And for that matter, JD existed before MD too (but they don't choose to go by doctor). So while the title of doctor does indeed date back to italian scientists and healers of the 1200's, they were called magisters back then and doctors was simply the legal honorary they achieved by proving their abilities proficient. Somewhere along the line doctor became the self-proclaimed title too, but it was always just an honorary as the highest level of a specific education. MD itself is not that old of a degree.

He's totally right now. Even in modern vernacular (can't speak on europe, only America here) doctor is a title of educational achievement. Physician is a job title. You are a physician, your degree is doctor. That we put "Dr." before the our names is as meaningful as a lawyer putting "Esq." at the end. Neither of these are the job they posses, they are both honorary titles due to their degree held (with esquire being a sign you have reached the highest echelon of a vocational degree. Doctor is considered the highest level of a scientific/philosophic degree). So go easy on him, he's not wrong. He's just embracing the strict definitions rather than the common assumptions.

Obviously I'm ignoring the obvious fact that when people say doctor they mean physician. We all know that. But it doesn't mean they are right in making that assumption a 1:1 thing, because it isn't. All oranges are orange round fruits, but not all orange round fruits are oranges (clementines, grapefruits, kumquats).

Can you explain to me why doctors are called doctors in the United Kingdom when the vast majority of them have just a bachelor degree? You do realize they speak English? You also realize that this usage predated the founding of the United States of America?

The PhD did not predate the MD by 60 years. That's utter bull.

The first doctorates were in theology, medicine and law. The medical doctorate came two years after the first theological doctorates.

I give up. No wonder everyone and their uncle is walking all over the medical profession and doctors in particular. They get plenty of help from ignoramuses within the profession.

 

[FiremedicMike]

Can you explain to me why doctors are called doctors in the United Kingdom when the vast majority of them have just a bachelor degree? You do realize they speak English? You also realize that this usage predated the founding of the United States of America?

The PhD did not predate the MD by 60 years. That's utter bull.

The first doctorates were in theology, medicine and law. The medical doctorate came two years after the first theological doctorates.

I give up. No wonder everyone and their uncle is walking all over the medical profession and doctors in particular. They get plenty of help from ignoramuses within the profession.

Holy **** dude.. Relax.

 

[Pansit]

I think the main difference in trainign is probably the 3rd and 4th years. In the DO world, it's wildly variable and too often students are left on their own without much guidance. I know of a student who basically had no inpatient experiences (maybe a couple weeks) the ENTIRE medical school. He 'fell through the cracks' I guess, and didn't realize how big a detriment that would be until he started residency. He was unable to function at the level of other residents (DOs and MDs) and it really hurt him (he was asked to leave the residency..though he eventually got an FP gig somewhere and is doing well now). I think it'd be extremely hard, if not impossible, for MD student to graduate without inpatient experiences.

I think if DO schools fix some of their problems in their 3rd and 4th years with regards to rotations, they will be doing their students a huge service. I have a lot of respect for DO students, as they seem to succeed despite some of the limitations the structure places on them, but IMO it's not an ideal situation. It was his experiences that made me not apply to DO schools this past cycle - even though (I hope) his experiences were rare.

That is a utter BS. ALL schools have REQUIRED CORE ROTATIONS. I cant imagine being able to complete internal medicine, gen surg, ob-gyn..etc without having inpatient experiences. I can promise you getting inpatient experience is not a problem. Maybe it was the person in questions fault for probably trying to stay away on purpose.

 

[Pansit]

Can you explain to me why doctors are called doctors in the United Kingdom when the vast majority of them have just a bachelor degree? You do realize they speak English? You also realize that this usage predated the founding of the United States of America?

The PhD did not predate the MD by 60 years. That's utter bull.

The first doctorates were in theology, medicine and law. The medical doctorate came two years after the first theological doctorates.

I give up. No wonder everyone and their uncle is walking all over the medical profession and doctors in particular. They get plenty of help from ignoramuses within the profession.

What is your problem? Doctor is an academic title here in the US. My principal in High School was called "Dr." as he had obtained a Doctorate of Education. When I apply for things on the job title I dont put "Doctor"...I put PHYSICIAN.

 

[DocEspana]

Can you explain to me why doctors are called doctors in the United Kingdom when the vast majority of them have just a bachelor degree? You do realize they speak English? You also realize that this usage predated the founding of the United States of America?

The PhD did not predate the MD by 60 years. That's utter bull.

The first doctorates were in theology, medicine and law. The medical doctorate came two years after the first theological doctorates.

I give up. No wonder everyone and their uncle is walking all over the medical profession and doctors in particular. They get plenty of help from ignoramuses within the profession.

ahem. the first doctorate in philosophy was given by the university of paris in 1150AD. The first doctor of law degree was given in Bologna in the 12th century. The first doctorate of medicine was given in Salerno Italy in 1221.

You're right it wasn't 60. It was 71 years.

For that matter, the universities known for creating the tradition of giving an actual MD instead of a PhD in medicine were founded in 1413 and 1451. Ignoring that PhDs were given in france from 1150 on. They were given uniformly throughout all of Europe by the year 1300. Over 100-150 years before the first MD as we know it was given.

EDIT: I also said before I commented that I can speak only to American tradition of nomenclature. I dont pretend to understand how naming systems work when doctors have bachelors or masters degrees or whatever. Nomenclature is a good bit a social thing and I do not know the social culture aspect and the traditional greeting titles of countries other than my own and Spain's. But come on. It took me 5 minutes to look all this up before I commented the first time to make sure I wasn't in error, and took me 2.5 minutes to recheck my facts to point out your timeline is way off for the European development of the degrees. The original degree as created in france and italy are for mastery of philosphical arts and PhD of theology/philosophy outdates the one of medicine by 50+ years. The literal degree was created in Scotland and its still 150 years too late to the party of other people getting degrees and using the term doctor in Europe.

 

[schwabejr]

The difference between MD and DO lies only in the mind of the student, not the provider or the patient.

 

[Pansit]

The difference between MD and DO lies only in the mind of the student, not the provider or the patient.

But I thought DO's during the first two years were taught magic and sorcery...I know that only a minority of DO's actually use sorcery in their daily practice but it is a difference...no?

 

[DocEspana]

But I thought DO's during the first two years were taught magic and sorcery...I know that only a minority of DO's actually use sorcery in their daily practice but it is a difference...no?

Only the old crazy heads of the AOA use sorcery. Most students think its a bunch of crock. But you'll probably never meet those old coots, because DO is really a young-people's degree with all of the enrollment expansion. This generation, we're really much more focused on alchemy and dowsing.

 

[patel2]

so what's going to happen in 30 years to osteopathic medicine when these older AOA folks pass away? People are always talking on here how the leadership is really distanced from the actual attitudes of students.

Will OMM/cranial die out with newer generations who just want to be physicians and don't care at all about the philosophy of AT Still?

 

[Pansit]

Only the old crazy heads of the AOA use sorcery. Most students think its a bunch of crock. But you'll probably never meet those old coots, because DO is really a young-people's degree with all of the enrollment expansion. This generation, we're really much more focused on alchemy and dowsing.

Yeah...I agree...alchemy and dowsing will be the future of this profession. These old kooks need to learn that. Sorcery is so played out...only 14 year old teenagers hooked on Harry Potter really care about sorcery nowadays...

 

[Pansit]

so what's going to happen in 30 years to osteopathic medicine when these older AOA folks pass away? People are always talking on here how the leadership is really distanced from the actual attitudes of students.

Will OMM/cranial die out with newer generations who just want to be physicians and don't care at all about the philosophy of AT Still?

It's dying right now...the fact that half of DO's are in ACGME programs proves that. And a big majority in AOA programs are in non-primary care fields where it will never be used.

 

[DocEspana]

It's dying right now...the fact that half of DO's are in ACGME programs proves that. And a big majority in AOA programs are in non-primary care fields where it will never be used.

Well I'd argue a bit softer and say that it probably becomes a modality of choice. AKA: another tool in the toolbox. A lot of schools treat it like a be-all-end all, or the key to any good analysis. Some other school (thinking specifically of mine) treat it like just another tool for diagnostic and occasional treatment.

I think that going NBME changes it if its simply a modality for treatment and diagnosis rather than a keystone of the entire experience. It does change it if its the "all or nothing" viewpoint the leadership supposedly espouses (and I believe since I know the new AOA president), but a realistic viewpoint of OMT may evolve from this all. Thats my take on it.

 

[shaggy alfresco]

I would think a situation like that is entirely institution based and has nothing to do with DO vs MD. Don't you think there is just as much potential for this to occur at a small community MD program?

No, the LCME has much more stringent standards for the 3rd and 4th years than the AOA. At least I haven't heard of that - though I would be happy to be proven wrong. I don't really have a 'horse' in the fight. I didn't mean to start off anything, considering the nature of the thread, I thought I'd relate the experiences of my friend.

 

[shaggy alfresco]

That is a utter BS. ALL schools have REQUIRED CORE ROTATIONS. I cant imagine being able to complete internal medicine, gen surg, ob-gyn..etc without having inpatient experiences. I can promise you getting inpatient experience is not a problem. Maybe it was the person in questions fault for probably trying to stay away on purpose.

I am certainly not going to claim that this is the experience of the majority of DO students.

However, it's not unheard of, there've been instances of students saying that similar things have happened to them:

I need a little help/guidance. Here's my background: graduated medical school 2008 and started pediatric res. I did poorly…my PD pulled me into her office and told me that my contract wasn't going to be renewed. I told her I hadn't been enjoying pediatrics and had been thinking about switching. We had several helpful chats. Anyway, I am on good terms with the PD and got a letter. I walked away with credit for 4 months of the year. I think one of the other factors that contributed to my difficulties was poor exposure as a medical student in my 3rd and 4th year (i.e., never rounded on surgery patients, I had 1 month of inpatient medicine, ect.). The year of Peds helped with that.

As an aside, your lack of experience with inpatient medicine, surgery rounds, etc. is unfortunately endemic to osteopathic medical education, and does present a pretty big road block for us in terms of matching at some of the big academic residencies. I was asked multiple times on the interview trail this year questions along the lines of "we've had problems with osteopathic students in the past who came here unprepared, with significant deficiencies in their ability to do bread and butter wards medicine. How are you different?" Fortunately I was able to break it down for them and point to sub-internships and away rotations I had done from my home institution that had a more 'traditional' atmosphere, and the PDs seemed happy with that. Not everyone is getting that though.

I had the same experience third year by and large and had to make up for it 4th year by electing to repeat most of the same basic rotations at decent hospitals.
Many, many of my classmates have had similar experiences. Regardless, it is ultimately your responsibility to learn the material and hopefully your institution allows you some flexibility to learn real medicine at academic/teaching institutions.

As a DO grad, and now a resident at a very large tertiary care center, I saw firsthand what the original poster complained about. My 3rd year rotations were >400 miles from my school and they SUCKED. I had little to no inpatient experience, and spent the majority of my time with volunteer 'preceptors' (essentially pre-med shadowing) and barely-understandable FMG family practice residents who had no interest in teaching med students at all. (they were too busy trying to figure out how to write a SOAP note)
I was called on this by my interviewers during residency interviews. Don't think they don't know whats going on at some of these DO schools. I think the only reason I matched at my #1 was because of a Sub-I where I worked my ***** off. I spent my 4th year furiously trying to make up lost ground.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=696146&highlight=advise


I'm not a DO student, I was simply relating the experiences of my friend...and quoting other DO students above to show it's not only him. Again, I'm sure it's a very small minority.

 

[DocEspana]

I am certainly not going to claim that this is the experience of the majority of DO students.
I'm not a DO student, I was simply relating the experiences of my friend...and quoting other DO students above to show it's not only him. Again, I'm sure it's a very small minority.

I'm gonna agree with you here. Some schools (in this case I wont name names) are somewhat obsessed with the idea of utilizing community hospitals to get the most "wide" experience. They assume that if you go out in the middle of nowhere, or go somewhere terribly understaffed you'll have each doc teach you more. What you end up with is good docs that are overworked and dont have the time to properly teach you, or lesser doctors who are stuck in the backwater by a bit of a "nowhere else to go" mentality. And they can definitely teach you things, but its not the same as either a highly skilled physician, or one with a knack for teaching.

I would *imagine* that this is endemic to many schools regardless of degree, simply based on how crazy they get about this 'serving the underserved, and going to the rural areas' kool-aid that everyone drinks nowadays. But its definitely a fact that DO schools drink said kool-aid deeper and a few of them, supposedly, have some dead end rotation spots because of it.

Protip: When given the choice always pick the place with residents and its own self-contained residency program. Community hospitals only sound cool because you get more freedom to do techniques, but you're not expected to know how to do those techniques. You're expected to be able to do all of the menial tasks that will be repeatedly asked of you in a traditional "residents own your soul" program.

 

[Pansit]

I'm gonna agree with you here. Some schools (in this case I wont name names) are somewhat obsessed with the idea of utilizing community hospitals to get the most "wide" experience. They assume that if you go out in the middle of nowhere, or go somewhere terribly understaffed you'll have each doc teach you more. What you end up with is good docs that are overworked and dont have the time to properly teach you, or lesser doctors who are stuck in the backwater by a bit of a "nowhere else to go" mentality. And they can definitely teach you things, but its not the same as either a highly skilled physician, or one with a knack for teaching.

I would *imagine* that this is endemic to many schools regardless of degree, simply based on how crazy they get about this 'serving the underserved, and going to the rural areas' kool-aid that everyone drinks nowadays. But its definitely a fact that DO schools drink said kool-aid deeper and a few of them, supposedly, have some dead end rotation spots because of it.

Protip: When given the choice always pick the place with residents and its own self-contained residency program. Community hospitals only sound cool because you get more freedom to do techniques, but you're not expected to know how to do those techniques. You're expected to be able to do all of the menial tasks that will be repeatedly asked of you in a traditional "residents own your soul" program.

I guess I dont know all the DO schools but almost ALL my rotations were in places with residents and numerous residency programs. Some were in big health sytems and some in community programs. I have had the rounding with a team of 10 ppl experience and the rounding with just an attending, the noon lectures, the morning reports..etc. I have had the all I do is observe rotation and you are given almost complete autonomy rotation. I guess if you are not getting these experiences you should seek them out.

 

[Kuba]

One of my friends, who went to a good DO school (DMU,) told me she got almost no hospital experience her 3rd year. Even her IM rotations were outpatient. She is a great resident in Derm tho, so didn't bother her much.

 

[DocEspana]

I guess I dont know all the DO schools but almost ALL my rotations were in places with residents and numerous residency programs. Some were in big health sytems and some in community programs. I have had the rounding with a team of 10 ppl experience and the rounding with just an attending, the noon lectures, the morning reports..etc. I have had the all I do is observe rotation and you are given almost complete autonomy rotation. I guess if you are not getting these experiences you should seek them out.

Hasn't been an issue with me either. It was a warning I was given by a student from a certain midwestern DO school (no not northwestern, hahah, that would be too easy of a hint. I purposely am not throwing this school under the bus cause one persons story may not be the complete truth and its a pretty negative story which lines up with what shaggy alfresco said). The rotations over here in Harlem seem pretty strong and are at major hospitals. The two smaller community hospitals are both pretty well run as well since they work with the larger NYC hospitals, they sort of have to be.

 

[shaggy alfresco]

One of my friends, who went to a good DO school (DMU,) told me she got almost no hospital experience her 3rd year. Even her IM rotations were outpatient. She is a great resident in Derm tho, so didn't bother her much.

Wow. It's fantastic that it worked out for her but IMO that's crazy to bit have hospital experience in IM of all specialties....


Is this more common than I thought?

 

[Kuba]

Wow. It's fantastic that it worked out for her but IMO that's crazy to bit have hospital experience in IM of all specialties....


Is this more common than I thought?

I don't think so. It must be very rare, but it does happen, or at least did in the past. She was the only one I have ever heard of like that before this thread.

 

[duswdav]

You're an idiot. In English there is a clear distinction between the title Dr. (those with doctorates) and doctor as a profession. In the UK, most doctors have only a bachelor degree (MBBS), yet are still called "doctors." See this British Medical Association site for instance: http://www.bma.org.uk/

If you're aiming to educate others, at least get your facts straight, instead of posting the same ignorant logic that the DNPs post. It's bad enough that we have rabid nurses getting degree mill doctorates and calling themselves doctors based on your logic, we don't need medical students and real doctors believing in that revisionist logic too.

The notion that physicians are only called doctors because the shrewd medical profession hijacked the PhD doctorate degree into a medical doctorate is utter ignorance. First of all, the MD (Medicinæ Doctor) predated the PhD. And calling a physician a doctor is a totally different usage than calling economist Paul Krugman a doctor. Yes, we have something called homonyms in English.

now womp, i'm almost certain you've visited the wiki page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_(title)
as it is clear you copy/pasted or read/retyped a few phrases from it ("Medicinæ Doctor, The first doctorates were in theology, medicine and law.")
but did you actually read the article? "Beyond academia and in the classical professions, such as medicine and law, professional doctorates emerged: MD DO DDS etc" and that the "dr" title given to mbbs is a "courtesy" (and as a courtesy since the 14th century (though in the UK prohibited by section 49(1) of the Medical Act 1983 List of Privy Council Orders) Bachelor of Medicine and Surgery MBBS, MBChB, MB, BCh, etc.)
sir, do not call me an idiot. i wasn't attempting to create a fire but clearly, i've gone off topic with my previous post. in other posts ppl pointed out that md and do are both 'doctors'. i'm not satisfied with this, i'm going to graduate with a doctorate and practice as a physician. to me, that distinguishes the profession much more clearly.

 

[munchymanRX]

I wanted to search this forum, but the search function is unavailable right now.

Could someone please outline for me the difference between DO and MDs? What sort of jobs/residencies does a DO apply for vs a MD? What is the difference in qualification? Any and all informaiton is greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

The real difference? DOs argue about what makes them physicians.

Seriously though, there isn't one. You may find it harder (but not impossible) to land certain types of residencies, but you still get to be a doctor.

 

[shaggy alfresco]

I don't think so. It must be very rare, but it does happen, or at least did in the past. She was the only one I have ever heard of like that before this thread.

Well that's good. It's nice on one hand that there are so many more schools for people to choose if they want to become a doctor but hopefully the growth isn't so fast and uncontrolled that they start falling through the cracks.

 

[Just Joshin]

Hasn't been an issue with me either. It was a warning I was given by a student from a certain midwestern DO school (no not northwestern, hahah, that would be too easy of a hint. I purposely am not throwing this school under the bus cause one persons story may not be the complete truth and its a pretty negative story which lines up with what shaggy alfresco said). The rotations over here in Harlem seem pretty strong and are at major hospitals. The two smaller community hospitals are both pretty well run as well since they work with the larger NYC hospitals, they sort of have to be.

I really wish you'd name names. It's not like you're saying it's a fact. You're saying what someone told you. As for throwing a school under the bus, if it's true, the school should be thrown under the bus.

 

[FiremedicMike]

Anyone care to comment on OUCOM and the strength of the CORE program in terms of 3rd and 4th year clinical rotations? I would very much appreciate it, thanks!

 

[womp]

What is your problem? Doctor is an academic title here in the US. My principal in High School was called "Dr." as he had obtained a Doctorate of Education. When I apply for things on the job title I dont put "Doctor"...I put PHYSICIAN.

What is my problem? Why is it so difficult for you guys to understand that there are lots of homonyms in English? English is a language of context, it uses context to distinguish combinations of tens of thousands of homonyms. Sure, doctor is also an academic title. Thank you for enlightening me on that.

Were none of you guys ever taught on how to use an English dictionary?

Doctor
–noun

1. a person licensed to practice medicine, as a physician, surgeon, dentist, or veterinarian.
   
2. person who has been awarded a doctor's degree: He is a Doctor of Philosophy.
   
3. Doctor of the Church.

Each line is a different usage, not the same usage with expanding meanings.

To call your high school principal a Dr. is a TOTALLY DIFFERENT USAGE from calling a physician or other medical practitioner a doctor in a clinical context. If you still don't understand this point, maybe that's why some of you didn't do so hot on your MCAT Verbal.

That first definition of doctor has been widely used in English for at least 6 centuries now, and is used today in all English speaking countries. You don't just get to decide one day to throw that usage away just because its precision may not be as tidy as you would like. When a child learns the word doctor the first time, he is not thinking of the academic degree.

And don't think the word physician is safe from the midlevel and quack onslaught either. PAs are already on a mission to rename their profession as "physician associates" (another total bastardization of the English language since associates generally refer to people in the same professional track as more senior members), and there are plenty of "naturopathic physicians" and "homeopathic physicians."

Additionally, the overlap of physicians over surgeons is not very clean either. There's a reason why many older medical colleges were called College of Physicians & Surgeons.

 

[DocEspana]

Additionally, the overlap of physicians over surgeons is not very clean either. There's a reason why many older medical colleges were called College of Physicians & Surgeons.

See, I just thought it was because the acronym becomes P&S, which sounds just like 'penis'. Figured old institution founders named Cornelius and Ezra wanted to have a jolly laugh at the secret phallus joke.

 

[Kuba]

Anyone care to comment on OUCOM and the strength of the CORE program in terms of 3rd and 4th year clinical rotations? I would very much appreciate it, thanks!

I rotated through as a 4th year. I would list it as VERY strong. If you're from OH, choose OUCOM.

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

Wow. It's fantastic that it worked out for her but IMO that's crazy to bit have hospital experience in IM of all specialties....


Is this more common than I thought?

I had mainly outpt experiences as a 3rd year, too. It was frustrating. I had to be on call with my outpt IM attending in the hospital one weekend and was totally lost. I'd never dictated an H/P before!!

Because of this, I made sure to schedule all hospital-based rotations as a 4th year. It definitely made all the difference. Of course, I had to do 1 outpt medicine month, and it felt super chill. Besides that, all inpatient. 👍

If I had to do it all over again, I would have been better off going for the MD school. However, I got what I wanted and all turned out well, so I'm happy 👍

 

[Pansit]

What is my problem? Why is it so difficult for you guys to understand that there are lots of homonyms in English? English is a language of context, it uses context to distinguish combinations of tens of thousands of homonyms. Sure, doctor is also an academic title. Thank you for enlightening me on that.

Were none of you guys ever taught on how to use an English dictionary?

Doctor
–noun

1. a person licensed to practice medicine, as a physician, surgeon, dentist, or veterinarian.
   
2. person who has been awarded a doctor's degree: He is a Doctor of Philosophy.
   
3. Doctor of the Church.

Each line is a different usage, not the same usage with expanding meanings.

To call your high school principal a Dr. is a TOTALLY DIFFERENT USAGE from calling a physician or other medical practitioner a doctor in a clinical context. If you still don't understand this point, maybe that's why some of you didn't do so hot on your MCAT Verbal.

That first definition of doctor has been widely used in English for at least 6 centuries now, and is used today in all English speaking countries. You don't just get to decide one day to throw that usage away just because its precision may not be as tidy as you would like. When a child learns the word doctor the first time, he is not thinking of the academic degree.

And don't think the word physician is safe from the midlevel and quack onslaught either. PAs are already on a mission to rename their profession as "physician associates" (another total bastardization of the English language since associates generally refer to people in the same professional track as more senior members), and there are plenty of "naturopathic physicians" and "homeopathic physicians."

Additionally, the overlap of physicians over surgeons is not very clean either. There's a reason why many older medical colleges were called College of Physicians & Surgeons.

...you are still arguing over using the word doctor....that is the problem I am talking about...lol

 

[shaggy alfresco]

I had mainly outpt experiences as a 3rd year, too. It was frustrating. I had to be on call with my outpt IM attending in the hospital one weekend and was totally lost. I'd never dictated an H/P before!!

Because of this, I made sure to schedule all hospital-based rotations as a 4th year. It definitely made all the difference. Of course, I had to do 1 outpt medicine month, and it felt super chill. Besides that, all inpatient. 👍

If I had to do it all over again, I would have been better off going for the MD school. However, I got what I wanted and all turned out well, so I'm happy 👍

Thanks for that experience 🙂. What specialty did you decide on?

 

[group_theory]

The common usage of doctor is pretty much understood to mean physician (both here and in the UK). That's why phrases such as "I have a doctor's appointment today" or "Is there a doctor on board this plane" are not ambuguous. Even though we call people with doctorates "doctor" (aka professors, dentists, archeologists, researchers, scholars, psychologist, etc), no one is thinking of those professions when the above phrases are mentioned.

But history and evolution of the word "doctor" is very interesting and fascinating. While the latin root may be "teacher", its English roots are also interesting.

The first time doctor appeared in the English written language was in 1303. In that context, it meant a leading scholar of medieval philosophy. The first time the word doctor appeared in regards to the highest degree given by a university was in 1377 (Doctoures of decres and of diuinitie maistres). The first time doctor appeared as the highest degree given to a scholar in law was in 1377.

Doctors (meaning physicians) appeared in 1377 too in Piers Plowman as well as Canterbury Tales.

The term physician first appeared in the English language in 1230 (spelled fisitiens)

The first time PhD appeared in the English language was in 1839


Remember, the above dates only apply to the English language.

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

Thanks for that experience 🙂. What specialty did you decide on?

Anesthesiology

 

[Parietal Lobe]

I really wish you'd name names. It's not like you're saying it's a fact. You're saying what someone told you. As for throwing a school under the bus, if it's true, the school should be thrown under the bus.

Ditto.

 

[DocEspana]

Ditto.

It was pikeville, who I always assumed was killing it in KY, but heard some horror stories from some students during a trip to washington DC with the AOA. Just the kind of thing where when they went from cores to electives they realized how little they knew about day-to-day activities expected of them. I was under the impression the people I talked to all went to the same hospital or two or three, not that they were representing the entire clinical curriculum. It would be scary of the latter was the case.

Edit: yes I realize Kentucky would be south not midwest. I just sort of generalize as east coast, west coast, and the rest of the country, and it's not that far south anyway.

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

It was pikeville, who I always assumed was killing it in KY, but heard some horror stories from some students during a trip to washington DC with the AOA. Just the kind of thing where when they went from cores to electives they realized how little they knew about day-to-day activities expected of them. I was under the impression the people I talked to all went to the same hospital or two or three, not that they were representing the entire clinical curriculum. It would be scary of the latter was the case.

Edit: yes I realize Kentucky would be south not midwest. I just sort of generalize as east coast, west coast, and the rest of the country, and it's not that far south anyway.

If it weren't for the midwestern misnomer, I would have told you it was Pikeville.

Their school blows balls..... 👍

 

[Darkskies]

I had mainly outpt experiences as a 3rd year, too. It was frustrating. I had to be on call with my outpt IM attending in the hospital one weekend and was totally lost. I'd never dictated an H/P before!!

Because of this, I made sure to schedule all hospital-based rotations as a 4th year. It definitely made all the difference. Of course, I had to do 1 outpt medicine month, and it felt super chill. Besides that, all inpatient. 👍

If I had to do it all over again, I would have been better off going for the MD school. However, I got what I wanted and all turned out well, so I'm happy 👍

Care to name the medical school you attended?