Major difference between DO and MD?

[OSUdoc08]

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What is performance in med school? If you mean grades, maybe. If you mean USMLE Step 1, then MCAT is definitely correlated. Must we go over this every time?

The MCAT correlation with the USMLE is the same as the correlation with the SAT.

It has to do with the ability to take standarized tests and not knowledge.

The material is COMPLETELY different.

 

[exmike]

The MCAT correlation with the USMLE is the same as the correlation with the SAT.

It has to do with the ability to take standarized tests and not knowledge.

The material is COMPLETELY different.

Of course the material is different. That doesn't mean there isn't a correlation. And it isn't just test taking skills, it is also the ability to retain knowledge, to integrate facts from disparate subjects.


Academic Medicine Volume 77(10) Supplement, October 2002, p S13–S16

"Bivariate analyses (Table 1) demonstrated moderate correlations between sciGPA and the individual MCAT scores. Additionally, there was moderate correlation between sciGPA and USMLE Step 1 scores. There were substantial correlations between individual MCAT scores and USMLE Step 1 scores, including the individual Verbal Reasoning scores. Correlations between individual MCAT scores and the USMLE Step 1 scores were slightly higher than institutional MCAT scores, in part due to adjustment for restriction in range."

 

[OSUdoc08]

Of course the material is different. That doesn't mean there isn't a correlation. And it isn't just test taking skills, it is also the ability to retain knowledge, to integrate facts from disparate subjects.


Academic Medicine Volume 77(10) Supplement, October 2002, p S13–S16

"Bivariate analyses (Table 1) demonstrated moderate correlations between sciGPA and the individual MCAT scores. Additionally, there was moderate correlation between sciGPA and USMLE Step 1 scores. There were substantial correlations between individual MCAT scores and USMLE Step 1 scores, including the individual Verbal Reasoning scores. Correlations between individual MCAT scores and the USMLE Step 1 scores were slightly higher than institutional MCAT scores, in part due to adjustment for restriction in range."

I stopped at the words "Academic Medicine."

😴

 

[exmike]

I stopped at the words "Academic Medicine."

😴

You've got blinders on my friend. Ignoring the giant elephant in the middle of the room.

What exactly is the reason you're so anti MCAT-Step 1 correlation? I'm confused 😕 😕

 

[OSUdoc08]

You've got blinders on my friend. Ignoring the giant elephant in the middle of the room.

What exactly is the reason you're so anti MCAT-Step 1 correlation? I'm confused 😕 😕

Because the MCAT was horrible.

I didn't find the Step I to be that bad.

On the MCAT, I didn't really know much at all. I knew just about everything on Step I, and was able to narrow it down to at least 2 choices. Obviously my score will be based on if I made the correct answer out of the 2 choices, but on the MCAT, most of them were guesses---especially the math. I hate math.

P.S. The elephant isn't interfering with the summer vacation I am currently on. In fact, now it's like a Safari!

 

[bigfrank]

No doors are closed. You can enter any specialty and recieve any top of job as either.

Some residencies may be more difficult to enter, but there are just as many that are easier to enter.

Wrong. The vast majority of residencies prefer allopathic applicants. As a DO, you will have an uphill battle trying to match into Plastic Surgery, Ophthalmology, Radiology, Dermatology, General Surgery, Urology, Otolaryngology, Neurosurgery, Radiation Oncology, Anesthesiology, and, yes, even Internal Medicine at middle-tier academic centers.

The only residency I can feasibly think of that may look at DO applicants favorably (i.e., on par with the allopathic applicant) is PM&R. Then, you can be a DO Physiatrist and have to answer two questions your whole life:

1. What is an Osteopathic physician?
2. What is a Physiatrist?

 

[bigfrank]

Dude. Get real.

🙂

Aren't little sisters annoying, JohnnyOU.

🙂

 

[OSUdoc08]

Wrong. The vast majority of residencies prefer allopathic applicants. As a DO, you will have an uphill battle trying to match into Plastic Surgery, Ophthalmology, Radiology, Dermatology, General Surgery, Urology, Otolaryngology, Neurosurgery, Radiation Oncology, Anesthesiology, and, yes, even Internal Medicine at middle-tier academic centers.

The only residency I can feasibly think of that may look at DO applicants favorably (i.e., on par with the allopathic applicant) is PM&R. Then, you can be a DO Physiatrist and have to answer two questions your whole life:

1. What is an Osteopathic physician?
2. What is a Physiatrist?

That's why there are AOA residencies.

 

[Doc Oc]

How could they not be related? That doesn't make any sense to me.

So are you saying that someone who works diligently to get a 4.0 in undergrad and a 33 MCAT has just as good of a chance of doing well in medical school as someone with a 3.2 and a 27?

In a word, yes. In more words, here is why:

The fundamental flaw in this argument is that the person with the lower GPA must have been either 1) of lower intelligence 2) less adept at mastering the material or 3) a poor test taker. This information cannot be inferred from the GPA, especially from the average DO student's GPA.

1) You assume that the 3.2 is the result of the student's best efforts. On the whole, there are more non-traditional, second-career, older, etc. students in the DO student population who were not trying to ace every course, because initially med school was not the goal.

2) A person with a lower MCAT is not necessarily a poor test taker. I would lean more towards the idea that those with lower scores likely do not have as strong a grasp on the material as the others taking the test (it is a curved test). The older, non-trad, career change crowd are more likely to have full-time jobs, children, have taken the core courses a long time ago thus it is harder to recall the material properly and retain it when studying for the MCAT, etc.

3) Some people party in college and screw up their first few semesters, but make up for it with an upward trend in their GPA once they get their act together. This person may have been given a chance to explain themselves by a DO school, but missed a numbers cut at an MD school, etc.


In a class of 100, you only need a few of these people to really skew the numbers downward.

 

[bigfrank]

That's why there are AOA residencies.

Yes, all DO students strive for those. 🙄

 

[OSUdoc08]

Yes, all DO students strive for those. 🙄

Contratry to popular belief, there are a number of AOA residencies which are actually better than a number of ACGME residencies.

It really depends on the specialty.

 

[thesauce]

In a word, yes. In more words, here is why:

The fundamental flaw in this argument is that the person with the lower GPA must have been either 1) of lower intelligence 2) less adept at mastering the material or 3) a poor test taker. This information cannot be inferred from the GPA, especially from the average DO student's GPA.

1) You assume that the 3.2 is the result of the student's best efforts. On the whole, there are more non-traditional, second-career, older, etc. students in the DO student population who were not trying to ace every course, because initially med school was not the goal.

2) A person with a lower MCAT is not necessarily a poor test taker. I would lean more towards the idea that those with lower scores likely do not have as strong a grasp on the material as the others taking the test (it is a curved test). The older, non-trad, career change crowd are more likely to have full-time jobs, children, have taken the core courses a long time ago thus it is harder to recall the material properly and retain it when studying for the MCAT, etc.

3) Some people party in college and screw up their first few semesters, but make up for it with an upward trend in their GPA once they get their act together. This person may have been given a chance to explain themselves by a DO school, but missed a numbers cut at an MD school, etc.


In a class of 100, you only need a few of these people to really skew the numbers downward.

That actually makes sense. I'll have to think more about this.

 

[Mixtli]

I don't get why there is even a debate against MDs vs. DOs. Both MDs and DOs can enter any specialty they want to. But, it is without a doubt harder for DOs to compete against MD residency spots even with similiar stats. However, since 95% of DOs would rather be a MD rather than a DO, its hard to argue both are equivalent.

Personally, I don't care if my doctor was DO or MD as long as they are intelligent and know what they are doing.

 

[Jack Daniel]

But, it is without a doubt harder for DOs to compete against MD residency spots even with similiar stats.

Well, obviously! All things being similar, I see little reason why an MD residency would choose a DO over an MD.

However, I think the average program wants the best applicant. So if a better DO applicant comes along, I think an MD applicant with lower scores will be less competitive.

 

[Doc Oc]

I don't get why there is even a debate against MDs vs. DOs. Both MDs and DOs can enter any specialty they want to. But, it is without a doubt harder for DOs to compete against MD residency spots even with similiar stats. However, since 95% of DOs would rather be a MD rather than a DO, its hard to argue both are equivalent.

Personally, I don't care if my doctor was DO or MD as long as they are intelligent and know what they are doing.

I don't think that 95% is even close to correct. If you do a search, there are lots of threads on this topic, where DO students were polled about whether they would have rather attended an MD school. Of course, we all know that the SDN sample isn't exactly representative (reference any score-reporting thread), but still, 95% is far from accurate. There are also alot of threads on DO students who were accepted to MD also and chose the DO route, if you are interested in reasons why.

 

[exmike]

I don't think that 95% is even close to correct. If you do a search, there are lots of threads on this topic, where DO students were polled about whether they would have rather attended an MD school. Of course, we all know that the SDN sample isn't exactly representative (reference any score-reporting thread), but still, 95% is far from accurate. There are also alot of threads on DO students who were accepted to MD also and chose the DO route, if you are interested in reasons why.

Cognitive dissonance. The vast majority of students at DO schools would have attended MD schools if they were given the choice. Is it superficial? Sure, but it is personal choice, and that is how people tend to choose. 95% is probably a little high, but its a significant proportion.

 

[bigfrank]

Cognitive dissonance. The vast majority of students at DO schools would have attended MD schools if they were given the choice. Is it superficial? Sure, but it is personal choice, and that is how people tend to choose. 95% is probably a little high, but its a significant proportion.

This is exactly why these debates will *never* go away.

 

[bigfrank]

Contratry to popular belief, there are a number of AOA residencies which are actually better than a number of ACGME residencies.

It really depends on the specialty.

Examples, please.

 

[MoxieDO]

Wrong. The vast majority of residencies prefer allopathic applicants. As a DO, you will have an uphill battle trying to match into Plastic Surgery, Ophthalmology, Radiology, Dermatology, General Surgery, Urology, Otolaryngology, Neurosurgery, Radiation Oncology, Anesthesiology, and, yes, even Internal Medicine at middle-tier academic centers.

The only residency I can feasibly think of that may look at DO applicants favorably (i.e., on par with the allopathic applicant) is PM&R. Then, you can be a DO Physiatrist and have to answer two questions your whole life:

1. What is an Osteopathic physician?
2. What is a Physiatrist?

Where have you been? As a MD you will have an uphill battle getting into these residencies, especially if you go to a low-tier medical school. Matching is more than the letters behind your name, especially since, like it or not, there are DO schools better than most MD schools (yes, look at the statistics and rankings). The fact is that anything you have just said could be applied to a number of people, MD or DO, if they have not done well and dont have a competative application. For many of these programs, seeing a DO may be somewhat rare, but if you are logical and look at statistics, there are much less DO placements simply because there are much less DO applicants in a large pool for relatively few spots. Like OP said, most programs are just looking for the best applicants and that is made up of far more than your title. By the way, yes DOs have and do get into these residencies regularly and not as the exception.

 

[OSUdoc08]

Examples, please.

Integris Southwest Medical Center
Emergency Medicine
Oklahoma City, OK

 

[PlasticMan]

In a word, yes. In more words, here is why:

The fundamental flaw in this argument is that the person with the lower GPA must have been either 1) of lower intelligence 2) less adept at mastering the material or 3) a poor test taker. This information cannot be inferred from the GPA, especially from the average DO student's GPA.

1) You assume that the 3.2 is the result of the student's best efforts. On the whole, there are more non-traditional, second-career, older, etc. students in the DO student population who were not trying to ace every course, because initially med school was not the goal.

2) A person with a lower MCAT is not necessarily a poor test taker. I would lean more towards the idea that those with lower scores likely do not have as strong a grasp on the material as the others taking the test (it is a curved test). The older, non-trad, career change crowd are more likely to have full-time jobs, children, have taken the core courses a long time ago thus it is harder to recall the material properly and retain it when studying for the MCAT, etc.

3) Some people party in college and screw up their first few semesters, but make up for it with an upward trend in their GPA once they get their act together. This person may have been given a chance to explain themselves by a DO school, but missed a numbers cut at an MD school, etc.


In a class of 100, you only need a few of these people to really skew the numbers downward.

I totally agree. I worked the entire time in college and the first three years I didn't apply myself to studying,etc during which time I failed 2 classes! Once I finally realized and fully decided that I wanted to be a surgeon, I started applying myself and received ~4.0 each semester for the last 2 years of college(during which time I took my pre-med requisites as well); however, the damage to my GPA was already done.

The other thing to remember is that AACOMAS and AMCAS averages grades differently. AACOMAS replaced those retaken courses with the new grades, while AMCAS averaged them. My GPA for AMCAS was significantly lower than my GPA for AACOMAS!

My last semester I was able to manage an 'A' in orgo2 while working 15-30 hours/week for company for senior project, 25 hours/week engineering job and taking 21 credits 😱, so I'm quit capable when I apply myself. Now, I will be starting school at NYCOM in the fall and will be quitting my job to be able to apply myself completely in order to make every attempt to match into plastic surgery. A DO school has given me the chance to do this.

 

[jhug]

the biggest difference???
A self-imposed professional insecurity.

 

[XKV]

I'm a bit of a neophyte, but I was under the impression that DOs (girls anyway) were hotter.

 

[JohnnyOU]

I'm a bit of a neophyte, but I was under the impression that DOs (girls anyway) were hotter.

hahaha 😀

 

[USArmyDoc]

Ya know, everytime I am in the hospital or talking to other doctors in a conversation it is always brought up that DO and MD are looked upon in the same way. Yes, entrance stats are different but after that it seems to be in the practicing world no difference. However, when I come on this freaking board thats when I see the stigma. Its unbelievable how many people on SDN just don't know what they are talking about.

That being said, am I saying theres NO stigma out there? Absolutely NOT!! My point is that it gets more attention here than anywhere else. I think everyone should just get over themselves. This is getting really annoying. When someone asks a question such as MD vs DO can't we just give them the truth. Tell them the differences between the two and thats it. You can even add that osteopathic schools have lower admission standards. Thats fine because its the truth! But to go into this whole stupid argument about who's better than who is getting really disgusting.

 

[Raven Feather]

👍

Ya know, everytime I am in the hospital or talking to other doctors in a conversation it is always brought up that DO and MD are looked upon in the same way. Yes, entrance stats are different but after that it seems to be in the practicing world no difference. However, when I come on this freaking board thats when I see the stigma. Its unbelievable how many people on SDN just don't know what they are talking about.

That being said, am I saying theres NO stigma out there? Absolutely NOT!! My point is that it gets more attention here than anywhere else. I think everyone should just get over themselves. This is getting really annoying. When someone asks a question such as MD vs DO can't we just give them the truth. Tell them the differences between the two and thats it. You can even add that osteopathic schools have lower admission standards. Thats fine because its the truth! But to go into this whole stupid argument about who's better than who is getting really disgusting.

You hit it right on. I think many people on this anonymous forum need to gain some REAL healthcare experience, then come holla!

 

[DJAmmz]

👍

You hit it right on. I think many people on this anonymous forum need to gain some REAL healthcare experience, then come holla!

USArmyDoc - thanks for the clear-cut-no-BS post.

Raven, that's why I don't take everything I see on here for granted. There's very little credibility in any posts you see here, everything has to be taken with a grain of salt. For example, the ideal info would be from a real, currently WORKING doctor, but most people on here I'm guessing are form pre-med or enrolled in MD schools. Nevertheless, this site is a good resource.

Cheers!

 

[It'sElectric]

Where have you been? As a MD you will have an uphill battle getting into these residencies, especially if you go to a low-tier medical school. Matching is more than the letters behind your name, especially since, like it or not, there are DO schools better than most MD schools (yes, look at the statistics and rankings). The fact is that anything you have just said could be applied to a number of people, MD or DO, if they have not done well and dont have a competative application. For many of these programs, seeing a DO may be somewhat rare, but if you are logical and look at statistics, there are much less DO placements simply because there are much less DO applicants in a large pool for relatively few spots. Like OP said, most programs are just looking for the best applicants and that is made up of far more than your title. By the way, yes DOs have and do get into these residencies regularly and not as the exception.

I think people have really looked past this post. Moxie has made an incredible point that so many people overlook. It is 100% true that being a DO will make it slightly more difficult to get into a specific number of ACGME residencies, but it is also 100% false that every single MD applicant will be able to get into any residency of his or her choice. Politics exist in every realm of the real world, and I think people should get used to it. The only thing you as an individual can do is perform to the very best of your abilities, make contacts with a wide range of people, and NEVER take no for an answer.

Everyone of us MD/DO can be whatever it is that we aspire to be if we truly work for it and apply ourselves to the goal at hand.

Good luck to everyone (MD/DO) in your pursuit of success and happiness!

 

[USArmyDoc]

Another thing that really bothers me.....I understand we all work hard to achieve what we have and I really respect that. But lets look past the degrees for a second and look at the bottom line (not money you selfish SOB's 😉 ). The bottom line is the patient and their health and happiness. SIMPLE!! No where does DO or MD come into the equation.....UGHHH...like I said on another one of these posts....Watch Baghdad ER and see how much those soldiers cared when they came in pleading for their lives!! 😡

 

[Gforce007]

The biggest, and most crucial, difference is during the residency app season. Like it or not, MD apps have an advantage in certain fields/programs over DO apps. I've seen my friends at DO programs get screwed over when it comes to applying for allopathic ortho, derm, etc. This post will probably generate the typical anecdotal "My DO friend got a 260 and matched at MGH ortho," but this is rare, and should you want to keep your options as open as possible, go MD. My opinion is that the advantage that an MD gives during the match outweighs any benefits of knowing how to do OMM. I'm sure this is controversial, especially in a DO forum, but matching in a field AND program you like is more important than knowing a skill that most physicians rarely depend upon. Granted, getting a 260 and honoring all your rotations will allow you to match well no matter the med school you attend, but 99% of med students will not accomplish this. Play the percentages. FYI, every US med school teaches "holistic" medicine. Before and after the residency app process, no one cares about your degree.

This is able. Last time I checked a DO can apply to allopathic residencies while MD's cannot apply for osteopathic residencies. This equates to MORE options. If your are picky on residencies and feel you are only an average med student, well MD may be better. Do well and doors will open for you regardless like mentioned above.

The OMT alone is not the soul purpose I feel.

 

[scpod]

...the ideal info would be from a real, currently WORKING doctor, but most people on here I'm guessing are form pre-med or enrolled in MD schools!

Ummmmmmm...that's why they call it Student Doctor Network.

 

[DJAmmz]

Ummmmmmm...that's why they call it Student Doctor Network.

Yup, I was fully aware of that, read between the lines of what I posted.

 

[homeboy]

I think the majority of the people who post threads such as these are the students looking for change where change is needed.
There's 4 types of students in DO school:
1. those who love OMM and every aspect of the profession
2. those who accept OMM as any other aspect of their education, and just go to school and absorb everything that is presented to them
3. those that are could care less about OMT and want nothing to do with the AOA
4. those that believe manipulation is beneficial but are skeptical of several aspects of OMT, but more importantly, are skeptical of our governing body

People who are satisfied with the way things are run now will view every dissent as a illegitimate complaint by a group of whiney students, rather than legitimate concerns about how our prefession is being run.

You cannot separate OMM from the AOA, and being that the AOA is doing a absolutely horrible job and is light-years behind the organization of the AMA & NBME, it's hard to just criticize them and ignore the shortcomings in OMM.

As people have said, the argument about the need for research-proven efficacy of OMM isn't a new one...it's been rehashed time and time again over the years. So why then do we keep getting the same response that "there's tons of research underway..." It's 2006...at what point is the hardcore research going to come out in support of things like cranial?

Yes, we're all working towards the same goal, but the manner in which we reach that goal is very frustrating to a number of students and physicians, namely, that our profession is touted by its leaders as being better, more patient-oriented, and more caring than the allopathic profession. Our governing body wants to set us apart based on inconsistent "optional" differences...I don't want to be set apart--I just want to blend into the healthcare scene with every other doctor, and if I stand out, I want it to be because I'm an exceptional phsyician, not becuase I'm a DO.

 

[Haemulon]

I thought this may be of interest to some. In the interest of exploring differences between DO and MD training for myself, I picked two schools more or less at random and compared the curricula of each. I realise that there is great variation among schools, but it was a neat excersize to see some differences, for whatever its worth. I broke down approximate time spent (in weeks) for each course (no way to easily know how much in class/lab time in hours). This is just for fun, don't mean to draw flames. Keep in mind these are the required course for each school, does not count electives. Here is what I found:

Gross Anatomy - Same in both DO and MD, 20 weeks

Physiology, Histology, and Embryology - All more heavily emphasized by MD,
+22 extra weeks combined

Biochem and Molecular Cell Bio - More emphasis by MD (14 extra weeks)

All of the introductory "patient" courses and "how to be a doc" stuff - hard to compare because the courses were different. Both had a lot of emphasis.

Microbiology and Immunology - DO had separate course, MD combined. More time spent by DO (+14 weeks)

Neuroscience - MD wins. +4 weeks

Psychiatry and Psychopathology - DO wins by landslide (+24 weeks)

Pathology - MD wins big (+14 weeks)

Pharmacology - MD wins (+10 weeks)

OMM - 60 weeks (continuous for years 1 and 2) for DO. None for MD (to be expected)



Summary:
Tied on Gross anatomy and clinical introduction/background/skills

MD wins with Physiology, histology, development, biochem, neuroscience, pharmacology, pathology

DO wins with Psychiatry, Microbiology/immunology, and OMM

Impressions: MD emphasizes physiological and pathological sciences
DO emphasizes psychiatry and OMM

 

[Haemulon]

Here is a comparision of time spent in clinical rotations for years 3 and 4 of those particular schools (just the required one's, does not include electives).

Family medicine - DO wins (+10 weeks)
Internal medicine - DO wins (+8 weeks)
OB/GYN - MD wins (+ 2 weeks)
Pediatrics - MD wins (+ 2 weeks)
Psychology - MD wins (+ 2 weeks)
Surgery - Equal (12 weeks each)
Geriatrics - MD only
Emergency Med - DO only
Ambulatory Care - MD only
Acting Internship - MD only
Basic Science Rotation - MD only
Substance abuse - MD only
OMM - DO only

Impressions: DO has very heavy emphasis on primary care (family med and Int. med). MD has less primary care required and more exposure to other specialties. Much as is generally assumed.

 

[OSUdoc08]

I thought this may be of interest to some. In the interest of exploring differences between DO and MD training for myself, I picked two schools more or less at random and compared the curricula of each. I realise that there is great variation among schools, but it was a neat excersize to see some differences, for whatever its worth. I broke down approximate time spent (in weeks) for each course (no way to easily know how much in class/lab time in hours). This is just for fun, don't mean to draw flames. Keep in mind these are the required course for each school, does not count electives. Here is what I found:

Gross Anatomy - Same in both DO and MD, 20 weeks

Physiology, Histology, and Embryology - All more heavily emphasized by MD,
+22 extra weeks combined

Biochem and Molecular Cell Bio - More emphasis by MD (14 extra weeks)

All of the introductory "patient" courses and "how to be a doc" stuff - hard to compare because the courses were different. Both had a lot of emphasis.

Microbiology and Immunology - DO had separate course, MD combined. More time spent by DO (+14 weeks)

Neuroscience - MD wins. +4 weeks

Psychiatry and Psychopathology - DO wins by landslide (+24 weeks)

Pathology - MD wins big (+14 weeks)

Pharmacology - MD wins (+10 weeks)

OMM - 60 weeks (continuous for years 1 and 2) for DO. None for MD (to be expected)



Summary:
Tied on Gross anatomy and clinical introduction/background/skills

MD wins with Physiology, histology, development, biochem, neuroscience, pharmacology, pathology

DO wins with Psychiatry, Microbiology/immunology, and OMM

Impressions: MD emphasizes physiological and pathological sciences
DO emphasizes psychiatry and OMM

This is a very flawed comparison, since DO schools are just as variable as MD and DO schools as compared together. You can find an MD and a DO school with just as similar of a curriculum. Your study is hereby meaningless.

You can name the comparison between two different schools, but to generalize as you have done is sheer stupidity.

 

[DrHans]

He did note that he realized there is variation between schools 😕 No need to get yourself in a huff or start this into another thread of how great your school is due to one professor. 🙂

 

[OSUdoc08]

He did note that he realized there is variation between schools 😕 No need to get yourself in a huff or start this into another thread of how great your school is due to one professor. 🙂

It's not just pathology. A comparison of just about all of the other classes isn't near that different.

MSU-COM, as another example has class year round, and probably has more "weeks" of all of those classes than most MD schools.

 

[Haemulon]

This is a very flawed comparison, since DO schools are just as variable as MD and DO schools as compared together. You can find an MD and a DO school with just as similar of a curriculum. Your study is hereby meaningless.

You can name the comparison between two different schools, but to generalize as you have done is sheer stupidity.

Why are you being so critical / harsh? Sounds very defensive. I did say "This is just for fun, don't mean to draw any flames". I also pointed out that I just picked two schools more or less at random and recognised that there is great variation among programs. When did I ever say that this was a "study" or that it had any kind of significant meaning other than as a fun excersize or staring off point for discussion and others typing how their programs varied or were different. Relax friend. No reason to attack. I havn't done anything to provoke you.

 

[Northerner]

Can I offer some advice?

Most, if not all reasonable and professional MD students and MD physicians are totally willing to share all the medical ground with DO students and DO physicians. These are not the people you're arguing with, no one professional and experienced will reasonably say one is more capable than the other. That said, the reason you pull in MD students into these pissing contests may be caused by some of the contentions in this thread that DOs do "more" than MDs - more medical school, more competent, more opportunities. Naturally, people are going to feel threatened and challenged when you do that. My advice - don't go there. Let's find even ground where we can and agree that the where the ground isn't even - it really should be, and eventually probably will be.

Second - it's silly to try to argue from your own perspective or limited research on the topic the ability of qualitative measures (eg., Step I, MCAT, Ugrad GPA) to predict how good or capable a physician a person will be. It's obvious that these measures don't take some important things into account, you don't have to remind everyone. However, as of now - these are pretty much all there are. But don't say they don't mean anything, they do. Just maybe not as much as some people would like in order to differentiate the two. But that should be obvious.

Just don't be combative with people who are insecure so they're picking a fight. The best way to keep out these people are to avoid making comments like those mentioned in my first point.

 

[thesauce]

I think the majority of the people who post threads such as these are the students looking for change where change is needed.
There's 4 types of students in DO school:
1. those who love OMM and every aspect of the profession
2. those who accept OMM as any other aspect of their education, and just go to school and absorb everything that is presented to them
3. those that are could care less about OMT and want nothing to do with the AOA
4. those that believe manipulation is beneficial but are skeptical of several aspects of OMT, but more importantly, are skeptical of our governing body

I'd like to suggest a #5 and see what you people think about it. I have a friend who recently graduated with a 3.7 and a 31 and was talking to me about wanting to go to DO school. I asked her why because MD is clearly within her reach and she explained that she didn't like the competitive MD school mentality.

My MD school is certainly a competitive bunch, at least I am 😀 , but what about DO schools? Are they more laid back/cooperative?

 

[Taus]

I'd like to suggest a #5 and see what you people think about it. I have a friend who recently graduated with a 3.7 and a 31 and was talking to me about wanting to go to DO school. I asked her why because MD is clearly within her reach and she explained that she didn't like the competitive MD school mentality.

My MD school is certainly a competitive bunch, at least I am 😀 , but what about DO schools? Are they more laid back/cooperative?

At the program I am doing this summer I live w/ 2 MD students from Ohio and am in a program w/ mostly MD students. We have talked about this at length and all agreed the mentality at the majority of MD schools is very different from most DO schools (keep in mind that I said majority and many...NOT ALL). This is not trying to insinuate anything derogatory towards either group.....just that the huge egos and hardcore type-A's definitely have more of a presence at MD schools....where DO schools tend to be more of a relaxed/friendly environment. There are obviously exceptions to every rule...and of course their are within what I said above. Besides the students I have talked to this summer...I found this to be true in my own experience on the interview trail. To each his/her own though...there are many people who thrive in and enjoy one environment vs. the other. That is why it is extremely important to really try to experience as much as possible on interview days to really see where you fit in and where you feel most comfortable.

 

[Taus]

Can I offer some advice?

Most, if not all reasonable and professional MD students and MD physicians are totally willing to share all the medical ground with DO students and DO physicians. These are not the people you're arguing with, no one professional and experienced will reasonably say one is more capable than the other. That said, the reason you pull in MD students into these pissing contests may be caused by some of the contentions in this thread that DOs do "more" than MDs - more medical school, more competent, more opportunities. Naturally, people are going to feel threatened and challenged when you do that. My advice - don't go there. Let's find even ground where we can and agree that the where the ground isn't even - it really should be, and eventually probably will be.

Second - it's silly to try to argue from your own perspective or limited research on the topic the ability of qualitative measures (eg., Step I, MCAT, Ugrad GPA) to predict how good or capable a physician a person will be. It's obvious that these measures don't take some important things into account, you don't have to remind everyone. However, as of now - these are pretty much all there are. But don't say they don't mean anything, they do. Just maybe not as much as some people would like in order to differentiate the two. But that should be obvious.

Just don't be combative with people who are insecure so they're picking a fight. The best way to keep out these people are to avoid making comments like those mentioned in my first point.

excellent post

 

[DrPsychLover]

I've been trying to find the answer to this question for a long time, and after 2 years of osteopathic med school the best answer I have found is:

The major difference between an M.D. and D.O. is one letter.

this is the best ive seen thus far. 🙂

 

[docdonny]

I've spoken with a few specialists (specifically anesthesiologists) who said that the DO vs MD doesn't matter so much but doing a MD residency is the gold standard in some specialities and that is where you could run into bias. Current medical students can you provide some insight about this. I heard about this concerning anesthesiology and radiology specifically from recruiters who recruit those doctors. They said DO or MD is fine but MD residency is a mus for a majority of the jobs

 

[Pansit]

I've spoken with a few specialists (specifically anesthesiologists) who said that the DO vs MD doesn't matter so much but doing a MD residency is the gold standard in some specialities and that is where you could run into bias. Current medical students can you provide some insight about this. I heard about this concerning anesthesiology and radiology specifically from recruiters who recruit those doctors. They said DO or MD is fine but MD residency is a mus for a majority of the jobs

A "must"...I highly doubt it. I dont see too many unemployed anesthesiologists...whether from an MD or DO program.

 

[patel2]

A "must"...I highly doubt it. I dont see too many unemployed anesthesiologists...whether from an MD or DO program.

It may not matter in some specialties. But in anesthesiology, I see where the poster above was coming from. If you surf the gas boards on SDN, most MD and DO's agree that ACGME/ABA certification is considered the gold standard for clinical practice. You are right that you won't find any unemployed AOA residency anesthesiologists, but in terms of private practice, fellowship opportunities, academic medicine and certain hospital systems, ABA certification may give a person a major advantage.

In other fields, like orthopedic surgery, this isn't the case...the distinction of AOA and ACGME residencies/certifications isn't very important.

 

[Longshanks]

I've spoken with a few specialists (specifically anesthesiologists) who said that the DO vs MD doesn't matter so much but doing a MD residency is the gold standard in some specialities and that is where you could run into bias. Current medical students can you provide some insight about this. I heard about this concerning anesthesiology and radiology specifically from recruiters who recruit those doctors. They said DO or MD is fine but MD residency is a mus for a majority of the jobs

In keeping the lost two posters points in mind, also remember that DO's recently have been matching rather well into ACGME GAS when you look at the last several years of match lists.

 

[drctother]

ahh I always love these threads because the Anti-DO people are always good for a laugh or two with their theories of how hard it is to match Ortho or Derm as a DO.

This argument always cracks me up because I personally think these people who want to match into Ortho or Derm care mainly about the lifestyles, salary etc of being a doctor as opposed to the medicine. I call bluff on anyone who finds epithelial cells or the retina fascinating enough to strictly pick that specialty on the medicine alone.

Thus this whole "wah wah DOs cant match Ortho or Derm (which is false to begin with)" argument is old. So Anti-DO people, any other reasons why DO is so inferior?

 

[patel2]

ahh I always love these threads because the Anti-DO people are always good for a laugh or two with their theories of how hard it is to match Ortho or Derm as a DO.

This argument always cracks me up because I personally think these people who want to match into Ortho or Derm care mainly about the lifestyles, salary etc of being a doctor as opposed to the medicine. I call bluff on anyone who finds epithelial cells or the retina fascinating enough to strictly pick that specialty on the medicine alone.

Thus this whole "wah wah DOs cant match Ortho or Derm (which is false to begin with)" argument is old. So Anti-DO people, any other reasons why DO is so inferior?

😕 You sound just as close-minded (probably more so), and like someone who carries a bigger chip on their shoulder than any "anti-DO" person