Making sure you will be included on paper

[alt91119]

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As an undergrad I got heavily involved in bench research. I obviously just joined a lab for the experience with no major worries for publications, but ended up having a PI who was very open to letting you know whether what you were doing would grant you authorship or not.

I'm now looking at making the transition to clinical research (retrospective database analysis type of stuff), and given my current status am obviously much more interested in making sure I won't be doing this without the chance of publication. When emailing doctors I am interested in working with, what is the best way to make sure my work would result in authorship and not just me being a mindless number-cruncher for them?

I feel like saying "Would there be a potential for me to contribute to one of your studies significantly enough to be included as an author on the resulting paper?" is a bit forward and crude, but I can't really think of a better way to verify I won't be getting screwed. Any input?

 

[musicalfeet]

As an undergrad I got heavily involved in bench research. I obviously just joined a lab for the experience with no major worries for publications, but ended up having a PI who was very open to letting you know whether what you were doing would grant you authorship or not.

I'm now looking at making the transition to clinical research (retrospective database analysis type of stuff), and given my current status am obviously much more interested in making sure I won't be doing this without the chance of publication. When emailing doctors I am interested in working with, what is the best way to make sure my work would result in authorship and not just me being a mindless number-cruncher for them?

I feel like saying "Would there be a potential for me to contribute to one of your studies significantly enough to be included as an author on the resulting paper?" is a bit forward and crude, but I can't really think of a better way to verify I won't be getting screwed. Any input?

I want to know this too...

especially because I'm probably going to end up at the med school where I do my research, my PI is heavily hinting at me spending my M1-M2 summer with her again. But the thing is, after two years with her, I've never had my name on a paper or anything, so I'm actually quite reluctant about doing that summer with her. I don't know how to handle this delicately, since I think I'm 99% sure I'm going to be looking for a different project in a different department for that summer research program next year.

 

[FIREitUP]

As an undergrad I got heavily involved in bench research. I obviously just joined a lab for the experience with no major worries for publications, but ended up having a PI who was very open to letting you know whether what you were doing would grant you authorship or not.

I'm now looking at making the transition to clinical research (retrospective database analysis type of stuff), and given my current status am obviously much more interested in making sure I won't be doing this without the chance of publication. When emailing doctors I am interested in working with, what is the best way to make sure my work would result in authorship and not just me being a mindless number-cruncher for them?

I feel like saying "Would there be a potential for me to contribute to one of your studies significantly enough to be included as an author on the resulting paper?" is a bit forward and crude, but I can't really think of a better way to verify I won't be getting screwed. Any input?

That's not crude, that's real life. I would look up this guy on pubmed and see if his past students have published with him. The guy is getting free labor from you, you might as well be sure to get authored.

 

[nabilesmail]

I always emailed and included "I'm looking to make a significant contribution to a project" somewhere. Usually, Doctors/PIs understand Medical Students/Graduate Students are looking for pubs

 

[FIREitUP]

I always emailed and included "I'm looking to make a significant contribution to a project" somewhere. Usually, Doctors/PIs understand Medical Students/Graduate Students are looking for pubs

Still too vague. You can straight up add that you're looking to publish.

 

[madchemist89]

Still too vague. You can straight up add that you're looking to publish.

Agreed. Tell them you are looking to publish. Having a student interested in publication is a good sign. It means that you want to accomplish something tangible with your research.

 

[PalmarisUseless]

You need to be forward with what you want, otherwise you could spend your entire time doing research without anything to show for it except for the experience. Tell them that your goal is to produce a publication/abstract/presentation, and they'll usually appreciate that you have a concrete goal for how far you want to go with the research. If they can't give you something, then I've found that they're usually helpful in pointing me in the right direction. Also, I've found that MDs are more willing to hook you up with authorship than PhDs, although this is just my own anecdotal experience (take it with a grain of salt).

 

[imadome]

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[Petrichor1]

Experience isn't an issue it is authorship. If I were you, I would transfer to a new department. I would even go far as to seek payment for your work since now you have some years behind you. Whatever promises your pi gives you now are false pretenses to get free labor; in fact I think this sort of stuff should be more regulated by officials to prevent use of students...I sometimes get appalled by how free labor outside of research is banned but the same isn't true within. I would post my terrible terrible lab experiences but it's better to say I myself will never get involved with research again until someone pays me decently to do so.

 

[TBV]

"Authorship is based on (1) substantial contributions to conception and design, or acquisition of data, or analysis and interpretation of data, (2) drafting the article or revising it critically for important intellectual content, and (3) final approval of the version to be published. Authors must meet conditions 1, 2, and 3." - from the AAMC

So you need to be straight up with your PI and then also fulfill the above duties in order to be author. If you do all of that I'm sure you'd get your name somewhere on the line.

 

[evilbooyaa]

"Authorship is based on (1) substantial contributions to conception and design, or acquisition of data, or analysis and interpretation of data, (2) drafting the article or revising it critically for important intellectual content, and (3) final approval of the version to be published. Authors must meet conditions 1, 2, and 3." - from the AAMC

So you need to be straight up with your PI and then also fulfill the above duties in order to be author. If you do all of that I'm sure you'd get your name somewhere on the line.

There are a ton of cases where those conditions (contributing to all 3) aren't applied.

 

[Law2Doc]

Agree you should be forward about your desire to get on a paper. Just bear in mind that sometimes research moves slowly, and if a paper doesn't get written while you are physically there, it's extremely common that they forget you were ever involved once you leave.

 

[Law2Doc]

There are a ton of cases where those conditions (contributing to all 3) aren't applied.

Not ethically there aren't. But yes people get put on papers improperly far more than is appropriate.

 

[TBV]

There are a ton of cases where those conditions (contributing to all 3) aren't applied.

Yes I understand that but technically speaking, if you don't meet the criteria you don't really have much to be upset about when you are left off. I've been published without meeting all 3 but I did push to do all 3

 

[IslandStyle808]

There are a ton of cases where those conditions (contributing to all 3) aren't applied.

Which shouldn't happen, but does. I am all for students being upfront about publication and authorship. It gives the student some protection from being shafted because they know before hand the level of work needed to maintain their place in authorship. It may not play out like this in reality in some cases however, you can walk beforehand if you find out that they won't give you first author even if you are doing the majority of intellectual work.

 

[ortnakas]

Not ethically there aren't. But yes people get put on papers improperly far more than is appropriate.

And left off papers they should have been included on. Authorship, unfortunately, is as much about politics as it is about giving credit where it's due.

 

[OnePunchBiopsy]

I was lucky enough to make it onto a paper. Three (four) things I did:

1a.) BE A TEAM PLAYER

1b.) Tell your PI on Day 1 that it is your goal to put enough work into a project to make it onto the paper.

2.) Work on the manuscript. Draft whole sections (especially the parts you did), and revise revise revise!

3.) If the paper is not published by the time you leave the lab, touch base via email/phone after each unsuccessful submission to see what you can do to help!

 

[JDunc]

As a graduate student (going for M.S. in Biology and PhD in Cell Biology) it is best to be blunt. Tell them you are looking to publish. No MD or PhD wants to spend time with a student who is not driven to publish. Especially a PhD. Our life is publish or parish. An MD is not required to publish anything to continue their career.


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[IslandStyle808]

As a graduate student (going for M.S. in Biology and PhD in Cell Biology) it is best to be blunt. Tell them you are looking to publish. No MD or PhD wants to spend time with a student who is not driven to publish. Especially a PhD. Our life is publish or parish. An MD is not required to publish anything to continue their career.


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I have to disagree with part of your statement. Not all Ph.D.s like to hear a student who is mainly publication driven. They want to hear your interest in their research projects first and foremost. Some will cringe when you talk about publication. I made this mistake when talking with two Ph.D.s in the past (wanted to do further research after my M.S.), got torn a new one in a formal way by both.

It is not that I totally disagree with you. However, in the case of Ph.D.s you have to be subtle about publication. Just say that your interest in the research and discuss how you would like to make a significant intellectual contribution to the project. Publication has to be at the back end of your talk rather than the front end. Otherwise it won't end well with some Ph.D. PIs.

As for MD PIs, I have not really spoken with them about research. They maybe a different story.

 

[JDunc]

I have to disagree with part of your statement. Not all Ph.D.s like to hear a student who is mainly publication driven. They want to hear your interest in their research projects first and foremost. Some will cringe when you talk about publication. I made this mistake when talking with two Ph.D.s in the past (wanted to do further research after my M.S.), got torn a new one in a formal way by both.

It is not that I totally disagree with you. However, in the case of Ph.D.s you have to be subtle about publication. Just say that your interest in the research and discuss how you would like to make a significant intellectual contribution to the project. Publication has to be at the back end of your talk rather than the front end. Otherwise it won't end well with some Ph.D. PIs.

As for MD PIs, I have not really spoken with them about research. They maybe a different story.

I agree. I left that out. Some PhDs like to be lifted on a pedestal. If you convince them that you're truly interested in their research works then a publication can definitely come out of it. I know for me personally, my advisor is new to having graduate students. He was super excited when he knew I was interested in his work and wanted to get a publication or 2 from working with him.


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[IslandStyle808]

I agree. I left that out. Some PhDs like to be lifted on a pedestal. If you convince them that you're truly interested in their research works then a publication can definitely come out of it. I know for me personally, my advisor is new to having graduate students. He was super excited when he knew I was interested in his work and wanted to get a publication or 2 from working with him.


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Great that it worked out.

I agree that students shouldn't be shunned in speaking up about publication. It is important that one knows how the work is to be distributed and whether ones role is enough for authorship. Otherwise, students can be shafted out of first authorship or even authorship in general because of avoidance of the topic. As long as a student state their interest in the topic first and at the end about his/her part in project as well as publication, I believe that PIs should be understanding of the student need to know what role they play in publication.

 

[RedPhys]

I was pretty straightforward about my intentions and got first author in the first project we (the PI and I) worked on together

It honestly is all about being in the right place at the right time

 

[Law2Doc]

I was lucky enough to make it onto a paper. Three (four) things I did:

1a.) BE A TEAM PLAYER

1b.) Tell your PI on Day 1 that it is your goal to put enough work into a project to make it onto the paper.

2.) Work on the manuscript. Draft whole sections (especially the parts you did), and revise revise revise!

3.) If the paper is not published by the time you leave the lab, touch base via email/phone after each unsuccessful submission to see what you can do to help!

From personal experience I can assure you that #3 has variable results and quite frankly if you aren't handy to sign authorship forms when they go to submit, or if someone else has finished up your role on the project you are often SOL, regardless of how proactive you are. That's just the way these things tend to play out. Many of us have learned this the hard way.

 

[IslandStyle808]

From personal experience I can assure you that #3 has variable results and quite frankly if you aren't handy to sign authorship forms when they go to submit, or if someone else has finished up your role on the project you are often SOL, regardless of how proactive you are. That's just the way these things tend to play out. Many of us have learned this the hard way.

So this is why medical students/residents/attendings tell students to look for a project that is midway or close to finishing? Otherwise the above scenario may happen.

 

[Law2Doc]

So this is why medical students/residents/attendings tell students to look for a project that is midway or close to finishing? Otherwise the above scenario may happen.

It's always better to jump onto a project late in the game, or one that will be completed while you are there.