Malignant Medical Schools?

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SpirallingMD

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Does anyone out there know if there is a list of which medical schools have a reputation for treating their student well? i.e. if you are going to spend four years at an institution it would be nice to know if the faculty are helpful, . . . just talked with a cousin of mine who goes to Boston University med school, she said that she also got acceptances to Georgetown and University and Tufts and that if she had to do it again she would go to GW or Tufts, she was harassed on several occassions during third year clerkships and was told by the assisstant dean (unofficially of course) that they teach via intimidation and that if she can't tough if out then maybe she shouldn't do residency! she "toughed" it out and has gotten several interviews for residency, but wished that she knew BU's attitude on student maltreatment before hand and told me that she would never accept a residency position at BU or send a family member there for medical care, sad . . .
 
Does anyone out there know if there is a list of which medical schools have a reputation for treating their student well? i.e. if you are going to spend four years at an institution it would be nice to know if the faculty are helpful, . . . just talked with a cousin of mine who goes to Boston University med school, she said that she also got acceptances to Georgetown and University and Tufts and that if she had to do it again she would go to GW or Tufts, she was harassed on several occassions during third year clerkships and was told by the assisstant dean (unofficially of course) that they teach via intimidation and that if she can't tough if out then maybe she shouldn't do residency! she "toughed" it out and has gotten several interviews for residency, but wished that she knew BU's attitude on student maltreatment before hand and told me that she would never accept a residency position at BU or send a family member there for medical care, sad . . .

Be prepared to get harassed everywhere and anywhere.
 
Be prepared to get harassed everywhere and anywhere.

what? no, this isn't the military.

i guess the best way to find out about the school is to talk to current students. this doesn't really surprise me about BU though, i went to undergrad there. would NEVER go to their med school.
 
Hooray BU undergrads! Now I've seen like 4 of us on this site.
 
Be prepared to get harassed everywhere and anywhere.

I agree as I am yet to meet a happy medstudent regardless of school. If the faculty does not maim you they will let the material do the maiming, either way you are going to get maimed.
 
what? no, this isn't the military.

i guess the best way to find out about the school is to talk to current students. this doesn't really surprise me about BU though, i went to undergrad there. would NEVER go to their med school.

No its not, but only in the sense that they aren't going to ask you to drop down and give them 50.

You are going to get made fun of or verbally abused at some point during medical school and especially residency.
 
There seem to be some attendings and residents that are jerks at every hospital. It seems that they do not like having to deal with med students who essentially know very little and are just starting to learn. I've heard med students say that they feel ignored. It doesn't suprised me because med students are transients - they just rotate through. Some people don't like building relationships we others who are just going to leave.
 
You are going to get made fun of or verbally abused at some point during medical school and especially residency.

oh lovely...and thus the never ending cycle of intimidation and abuse.
 
While that is true, there are definitely specific programs/grading systems/schedules that make some medical schools much more tolerable than others. I've heard good things about Mt. Sinai in this regard.
 
what? no, this isn't the military.

No but there are a lot of similarities. It is a very hierarchical set up. Basically you are dealing with a lot of people working very long hours under very stressful life and death situations, and so they lash out at anyone under them. There will be some unflappable folks who will be good teachers, there will be folks who pimp you into submission to show you how little you know, and there will be people who lash out at you. This isn't going to be unique to any program, but you are going to be more likely to see it in certain specialties than others. (i.e. some of the more lifestyle specialties, and things like path and psych probably see less of this than eg surgery). There is probably less of it now that residency hours are capped, as some of the issues that used to be caused by the 100+ hour work weeks are gone.
 
Academic medicine is one of the places where you can be a racist/sexist/as*hole, and/or a clinically-apparent psych disorder, AND still be put in a postion of esteem and power.

Law2doc provides a great point regarding specialties, and while it is a stereotype there is some validity.

If things truly get bad (I mean illegal bad) then a discussion with the Dean's Office is merited. Hopefully things will never go that far. If it is worse than that, speak to the school's administration, using the phrase "hostile environment" (maybe that only works if you're employed though) whenever you can, or tell them your "cousin" at the TV station wants to talk to you more about your medical school experience.

As a black male, things have actually been better for me than I expected (at least to my face, which is really all I can ask for). A girl in my class is having a field day with shadowing in the Ortho dept, where two male attendings think she's great. So at my school things seem okay thus far.

If you're nervous about things, look and see who's in charge. Just old bald white guys, or do females have some pull somewhere? Also, at the interview, get an email address or two from the students you meet, and then ask them the nitty gritty.

Good luck with whatever you do.

dc
 
I agree as I am yet to meet a happy medstudent regardless of school. If the faculty does not maim you they will let the material do the maiming, either way you are going to get maimed.

How many med students have you met, from which schools, and in what capacity?
 
Yeah I am wondering also...I actually know many BU students who love it there. I think some intimidation and condecension is part of the whole thing. Don't let anyone scare you away. People exagerrate stuff...besides it's medical school, isn't it supposed to be mentally, emotionally and physically challenging?
 
I've spoken with a number of BU med students, and they all seemed to be pretty happy.

I don't think your friend is painting an accurate picture of BU for you or for others here on SDN.
 
The term "malignant medical school" is definitely a new one for me, as I usually have heard malignancy used for describing residency programs where residents have an incredible amount of work - which may turn out unhappy individuals that are more interested in getting their work done versus entertaining medical students. However, it makes sense that some medical schools are malignant, as you may go to interviews and sense (or hear) from first and second years that their lives are completely miserable and they have to rely on tactics of secrecy and deceit to "get by" (I do distinctly remember this feeling at one interview several years ago). Luckily, I don't think there are too many schools out there like this (but I could be wrong) - but this does not have to be the case.

Yes, in some departments at most schools (as people have mentioned) - there are people who essentially live for embarrassing medical students - but I have yet to experience this. I have personally encountered people who begin as very intimidating or harsh in their approach, but eventually, they turn out to be some of best teachers after the "getting to know you" period. Rarely have I remained in a so-called "malignant" relationship with someone for a long period of time (i.e., the duration of the 4 or 8 week rotation). In general, as long as you put in a good effort and essentially show that you are trying to think through a problem versus always saying "I don't know", people are willing to work with you if they see that you are willing to learn. But there are some people who are who they are, and for some reason (e.g., whether due to respect, tenure, etc.) never change and gain the reputation of not being medical student friendly.

If anything, the people who are most in jeopardy of being more "embarrassed" per se or more heavily judged are residents - and this has been most pronounced in surgery. But a part of this seems to be a method of teaching, not through intimidation, but through the idea that you will not assimilate information if no one asks you questions about what you have read and have supposedly learned. However, there is definitely a way to do this without crucifying or being rude to people.

The moral of the story is that, at this stage in the game, you should concentrate on what will make you happy at a medical school - including your feeling about the interview and your interactions with medical students, location, curriculum, maintenance of "self" (a very important yet often forgotten aspect), research and extra-curricular opportunities, etc. Yes, you will likely encounter some not so nice people, but no medical school should be [openly] popularizing mistreatment of their students - or they wouldn't have survived very long as an institution. As previously mentioned, be proactive about talking to medical students at several levels, both pre-clinical and clinical (if possible), before making a decision based on the experiences of one. Assess how you would fit at an institution based on a number of factors important to you, and you are more likely to find yourself in a place where you can "enjoy" your education (as much as this "process" of becoming a physician can be "enjoyed" - because you are not always going to be at the pinnacle of happiness in medical school or in practice as a doctor).

Best,
H&T
 
I've spoken with a number of BU med students, and they all seemed to be pretty happy.

I don't think your friend is painting an accurate picture of BU for you or for others here on SDN.

What year were the people you spoke to? There is a huge difference between years 1 and 2 (just classroom) and year 3 (clinical)
 
What year were the people you spoke to? There is a huge difference between years 1 and 2 (just classroom) and year 3 (clinical)

Agree. Unlike college, med school is really two very different stages. In some cases, you may not even be in the same hospital during many rotations in 3rd and 4th year.
 
Agree. Unlike college, med school is really two very different stages. In some cases, you may not even be in the same hospital during many rotations in 3rd and 4th year.

Yeah, and from what I hear there isn't much abuse during years 1 and 2 because how can there be? Its not like schools make you raise your hand or humilate you for doing poorly on a test.

But I have heard stories of doctors (surgeons especially) who jump at the opportunity to make medical students feel like the educated equivalent of dirt during 3rd year rotations.
 
But I have heard stories of doctors (surgeons especially) who jump at the opportunity to make medical students feel like the educated equivalent of dirt during 3rd year rotations.

By then you already know you know less than dirt, so it doesn't sting as much.
 
simply put, there is obviously a huge difference between teaching and intimidating techniques. Intimidating techniques almost always involve logical fallacies (law2doc should know about these) and belittleing(sp?) the student. The best approach in dealing with this type of situation is to pull him/her aside and bring the problem up. then if it keeps on happening talk to a superior above that person.

finally, if that doesn't work, then a new feature on sdn should be added which allows users to post their names, schools, pictures, and why/how they're so bad.
 
I just recently became an IM attending after finishing residency in June. The bottom line is malignancy doesn't come from having to work hard or from one attending/resident all the time as much as it comes from one attending/resident having a personal problem with one resident/medical student from the start. That's why it's so common to see a well liked, friendly attending all of a sudden have a huge problem with one resident or medical student who may otherwise be doing well and be well liked by other attendings/residents/students. Maybe it's because they're too athletic, too skinny, too pretty, too smart, etc etc etc. Regardless, in my experience it's almost always a POSITIVE quality that someone's superior doesn't like about them. There are always going to be those students and residents that just can't make the cut, but in those situations I've never seen someone not be helped multiple times and fail multiple times before their program finally gives them the boot. There's nothing wrong with long work hours as long as you eventually get some rest, and there's nothing wrong with lining up the students or residents and pimping them as long as you do it respectfully and equally. In my opinion, people that say programs are malignant due to working too many hours need to make an objective assessment of how many hours they're working (aka log every hour honestly) and if you're consistently over 80 then do something about it. Unfortunately if you run into a superior that just plain has a personal problem with you there's not much you can do about it other than work hard and show that you really care, but it's probably not going to convince that person specifically as much as it's going to make other attendings and residents step up to defend you.

I had one run in while a medical student where an attending did not like me from the start but I figured it wouldn't be an issue because I only worked with him for 2 days. Unfortunately he took it upon himself to write an almost laughably bad evaluation of me. At first it caused some issues but I had done well before and continued to do well after that rotation, along with getting a good evaluation from a doctor at the same practice who I'd worked with much more. With a great evaluation from the same rotation my school finally elected to throw the bad evaluation out. So again, if you work hard and are genuine, most people are not going to be able to discredit that. There will always be someone, but there's always a jerk anywhere you go.
 
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