malignant programs

[splenic_flexure]

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After reading the many posts of U of Chicago I want to make sure that I do not waste my time applying to malignant programs such as the U of C. My wholehearted sympathy goes out to the residents who have to put up with that abuse.

I think that there are many grades of malignant out there for general surgery programs, but I would definitely like to find out what programs are along par with U of Chicago?

I searched this forum and only found one previous post which listed the following: (these were posted only a few people)

UofL, UAB, & Cinncinnatti
U of Washington, Seattle
University of Colorado
Mass General
Brigham and Women's
UAB
U. of Louisville
Hopkins
MUSC

I am not sure if these are truly bad programs for gen surg, but I was hoping for any input. Thanks.

 

[apma77]

Add UMDNJ- Newark to the list!

 

[maxheadroom]

Cincinnati used to be pretty darn mean, but I think the new chairman (been there a couple of years, now) has made some great progress. I was impressed when I interviewed there, especially with the notions that I had going in to the interview day.

 

[apma77]

It is VERY VERY hard to judge on an interview date whether the program is malignant or not. Unless they outright tell you or give u a big hint. But most malignant and Extremely malignant programs will ONLY have their "favorite" residents available during the interview day to talk to. THe other "lazy and incompetent" residents somehow are never there. The most vicious people become very nice to talk to all of a sudden on interview days ..this is because they want to sucker people in. IT happens every yr and will continue to happen.

If you really want t o chk out a program , go visit on a non interview date and talk to different residents and VISITING residents (these guys have no vested interest) if you can.
ATTRITION rates given by most surgery programs are bogus becuase when they fire the original resident they hired on match day they later hire another monkey and they claim the attrition rate is zero!
Ya rite!

Louisville
Baylor
UMDNJ Newark
UAB
U of CHicago

THese programs are NOTORIOUSLY malignant. Its not rumors..go see for yourself..BUt again if you are a malignant SOB yourself you may find it to be different!

 

[Foxxy Cleopatra]

LOL- you're probably right- the best way to figure it out is probably to do an externship there.

BTW, to which Baylor are you referring?

Originally posted by apma77
ATTRITION rates given by most surgery programs are bogus becuase when they fire the original resident they hired on match day they later hire another monkey and they claim the attrition rate is zero!
Ya rite!

Louisville
Baylor
UMDNJ Newark
UAB
U of CHicago

THese programs are NOTORIOUSLY malignant. Its not rumors..go see for yourself..BUt again if you are a malignant SOB yourself you may find it to be different!

 

[jollygood]

apma's posting may seem outrageous, but i've seen much of those practices where i am. can't really comment on the other programs

 

[ArrogantSurgeon]

splenic_flexure,

I would encourage you to more thoroughly investigate the programs you are interested in to determine if they are malignant or not. There seems to be a few disgruntled residents here (some posting under multiple names) who are out to slander some programs. Besides, you might find some programs that are labeled as "malignant" for some people to not be that way at all for you. For example, the surgery department at my school is reputed to be very malignant, yet my experiences with it have been anything but so. You probably already know that scutwork.com is a good place to start, but realize that some of the anonymous reviews given there are also bogus and contradictory.

 

[apma77]

arrogant tthats cause you may be a malignant personality and blend rite in with your malignant dept of surgery

food for thought😀

 

[womansurg]

Originally posted by apma77
arrogant tthats cause you may be a malignant personality and blend rite in with your malignant dept of surgery

This may be true...perhaps not. But it's something to take into account: your own tolerance and willingness to endure such an environment.

Some people not only are not perturbed by abusive people, but may actually seek out such an environment. Being rude and domineering to your work colleagues is one way of feeling better about yourself, I suppose. I think most folks agree that, overall, it is a destructive and counterproductive process that hinders far more than it helps. But if you're comfortable clawing your way around in a hierarchichal system of insecure bullies, there may be enough draws to any particular program that the malignancy of it doesn't deter you.

It's a case by case decision. Look at the program and look at yourself and what you want from your education. Malignancy doesn't - necessarily - have to steer you away if you feel you can accomplish your goals within that system.

 

[ArrogantSurgeon]

Originally posted by apma77
arrogant tthats cause you may be a malignant personality and blend rite in with your malignant dept of surgery

food for thought😀

Maybe I am, maybe I'm not. But that was not the point since nobody can really accurately know if somebody has an unfavorable personality in real life just from an internet discussion group. Some people here sound not so pleasant, but in real life they could be completely different. Who knows?

My point was that the OP or anybody else investigating residency programs should not accept *opinions* about certain programs from people who may have a grudge against a program. It's OK to gloss over opinions, but when it actually comes down to selecting different programs, then thorough investigation on part of the applicant is a must. In other words, don't be frightened away from a certain program because a lot of people say it is malignant on an internet site. Investigate further for yourself to find out if there is any merit to those opinions or if they are just exagerrations based on one person's experience.

 

[apma77]

your perhaps rite womansurg..there are pathologic people out there who thrive in malignant programs cause they are of the same state of mind..most people however arent of that nature

 

[trauma_junky]

Baylor boast a 98% divorce rate, what is really scary is the # of attempted suicides.

 

[Surgdude]

Regarding the "opinions" to shich AS refers in his message, I think that he does have some point. However, there really is no objective information regarding malignancy. Perhaps someone could ask all of the residents from all the programs to rate their experiences on the 1-10 smiley-frown pain scale so that we could compile the data. Until then, I think that opinions that state a program is rough should be entertained to a degree, as if one person finds it malignant enough to make a semipublic posting, there is likely more people at the programs that just haven't taken the initiative to convey the info to others. Kinda like the Nielsen TV ratings for program malignancy.

 

[Surgdude]

One last question...

I heard that one year, Duke had a 120% divorce rate in one of its graduating classes. Supposedly one resident got divorced, remarried, and then divorced again in residency. Anyone hear any support to that, or is it just urban legend?

 

[unregistered]

RE: Texas programs and malignancy


Baylor - I've been told Baylor's improving.

UT-Houston - By far the most malignant program in Houston.

Baylor Dallas (community)- definitely Non-malignant, don't confuse with Baylor in Houston.

Texas Tech Lubbock - I differ with Skylizard. It is considered fairly malignant. There is a female surgical resident I've heard about. The city isn't much.

Texas Tech El Paso - Considered non-malignant. There's only one attending who throws things, etc. Residents mostly FMGs, but a nicer lot overall.

In regards to the OP's question, I doubt any of these programs are as bad as what I've read about the U of Chicago (which is all hearsay for me).

 

[::Seabass::]

Originally posted by unregistered
UT-Houston - By far the most malignant program in Houston.

really?

guess I need to ask my friend but he seems pretty happy and he isn't the malignant type of personality. all the residents I've met seem happy and nice and have been more than helpful to me but then again, I'm not around at 3am or when things get rough.

 

[::Seabass::]

Originally posted by trauma_junky
Baylor boast a 98% divorce rate, what is really scary is the # of attempted suicides.

where do you get this info?

 

[smartreader]

Here's an article that I found on the internet when I was searching for attrition rates amongst surgical residents.

http://www.facs.org/fellows_info/bulletin/jun01russell.pdf

 

[trauma_junky]

Originally posted by seaworthc
where do you get this info?

I did clincial research at Baylor right out of undergrad. I told an attending that I was getting married and was intrested in a future as a surgeon. He laughed and proceeded to tell about his x's and how they beat the married residents harder than all the others. Then he told me the statistics. Very Depressing 🙁

 

[VAspa]

In reading the post, it focuses on what some term "malignant" programs. As an intern, I can tell you that on the interview trail, that is one of the most common things you'll hear about a particular program....that it is "malignant."

I challenge each of you that when you hear that word, to ask the person: (1) what does that mean in your mind, to say a program is malignant? (2) give me some specific examples of this apparent "malignancy" at that program, and not something that happened 30 years ago.

You'll find that most of the time when asked about a malignant program people will respond, "Oh, I heard that from a friend," and have no specifics to support their claim. Unfortunately, sometime slander influences people's decision on applying to places.

I go to one of the above mentioned "malignant" programs (UT-Houston), and while the going gets tough at times, I'm happy as a clam. Are there some difficult personalities? Absolutely, but you'll find that anywhere. Take this post for example, surely each of the people posting here are not enrolled in each of the residency programs they are calling "malignant", and maybe some of them have spent one whole month doing a sub-internship at a program. So there are people terming programs as "malignant" not based on personal experience, but what they've "heard."

If malignant means you work hard, then the program I am at is guilty as charged, but wake up folks, this is surgery.....you are going to work harder than any other discipline.

Good luck with the application process. Yo SeaworthC, nice post, fellow alum.

 

[::Seabass::]

😡 my main man stood me up this morning 😡



anything for you TU_UT 😉

 

[chef]

i've *heard* that hopkins & duke programs are super intense and waaaaay malignant.

i also heard umich annarbor prog is nice.. their chair is superstrict about 80hr rule

some1 pls confirm?

 

[womansurg]

Has anyone watched that documentary 'Restaurant' on A&E? It's a real life bit about the opening of a posh Manhattan restaurant - sort of a 'Real World' for chefs.

Anyway, the social dynamics are very interesting. For instance, it's very heirarchichal and militant, with lots of 'yes sirs' and 'right away, sir'. This one floor manager got his chops busted and had to work washing dishes all night with the illegal immigrant dishwashers, yet his attitude was 'yes sir, may I have another please'. It reminded me alot of surgery training.

 

[trauma_junky]

Originally posted by VAspa
In reading the post, it focuses on what some term "malignant" programs. As an intern, I can tell you that on the interview trail, that is one of the most common things you'll hear about a particular program....that it is "malignant."

I challenge each of you that when you hear that word, to ask the person: (1) what does that mean in your mind, to say a program is malignant? (2) give me some specific examples of this apparent "malignancy" at that program, and not something that happened 30 years ago.

You'll find that most of the time when asked about a malignant program people will respond, "Oh, I heard that from a friend," and have no specifics to support their claim. Unfortunately, sometime slander influences people's decision on applying to places.

I go to one of the above mentioned "malignant" programs (UT-Houston), and while the going gets tough at times, I'm happy as a clam. Are there some difficult personalities? Absolutely, but you'll find that anywhere. Take this post for example, surely each of the people posting here are not enrolled in each of the residency programs they are calling "malignant", and maybe some of them have spent one whole month doing a sub-internship at a program. So there are people terming programs as "malignant" not based on personal experience, but what they've "heard."

If malignant means you work hard, then the program I am at is guilty as charged, but wake up folks, this is surgery.....you are going to work harder than any other discipline.

Good luck with the application process. Yo SeaworthC, nice post, fellow alum.

Why is it that the subspecialties don't work as hard?

 

[LaCirujana]

Originally posted by chef

i also heard umich annarbor prog is nice.. their chair is superstrict about 80hr rule

some1 pls confirm?

Michigan is definitely pretty cushy for a general surgery program. I work less as a resident here than I did as a med student on my surgery rotations where I came from (easily booked 110-120 hours/week, now doing 70-90, sometimes even fewer). I wouldn't go so far as to call our chair "superstrict" about the 80 hour rule, but he and our PD do take it very seriously and we are keeping track of everyone's hours, with the plan that those services that are having a hard time keeping everyone within the limits will get more manpower, PAs, NPs, etc., to help make sure we DO get everyone within the 80 hours/week without sacrificing OR time for the residents.

 

[njbmd]

Hi there,

Our charman is very strict about the 80-hour work rule and made us all sign pledges that we would not violate this rule in any form or lie about our hours. When we get into the "yellow zone" meaning within 12 hours of 80, we are sent home without question.

The intensity of this program comes from the demands placed on you by yourself. You are always under pressure to do your job more efficiently and better. The work level didn't change but the hours did. After 6pm and on weekends, there are simply less surgical residents in the hospital and you can find yourself on an all-out "hump" for 24 hours. The chiefs operate more and the juniors do more paperwork and patient care on the wards. In short, it is very busy for all of us to get all of the work done in a shorter period of time.

The intensity of this program also comes from your colleagues and senior residents. More is demanded of you as an intern and junior resident than before and you have less time to make the adjustment from medical student to intern than before the 80-hour rule. You can start some services on a dead run and not see the inside of the OR for quite a while.

If you call the above characteristics "malignant" than most surgery programs are going to be pretty malignant. If you head into surgery or any of the surgery subspecialties for "lifestyle" after you heard that you can only work 80 hours, you are going to be in for a rude awakening. Most of our attendings work far more hours than the residents because they have the clincal and administrative duties to attend to. Surgery is intense here but great fun if you thrive on action.

If not, PM and R might be more your speed. PM and R means "plenty of money and relaxation".

njbmd "adrenalin junkie"😀

P.S. To womansurg: Yes, watching "Restaurant" made me appreciate my scutwork again. At least don't have to do the dishes.

 

[Crypt Abscess]

Baylor (Dallas) super benign program with great training. UTMB-Galveston- very benign program with average training. I have also heard that Scott&White is benign. Just my .02. Crypt

 

[md03]

My program is probably one of the most benign in the US. However, I am just finishing a rotation with a chief who is a major a$$ and has a very malignant personality and way of doing things. Had I been in this setting last year as a visting medical student, I would have deemed the program malignant and crossed it off my list (and would have told others I thought it to be malignant)

The program where I went to school could be deemed either horribly malignant or a place where you work hard and get great training. Depended which resident you spoke to. Usually it was the ones who had the reptuation of being lazy or of lesser competence that thought the place malignant.

When you find a program is deemed malignant, the next question should be "What makes it malignant?"

 

[daredevil_2010]

I think most programs now are 80 hours compliant, especially after what happened to Johns Hopkins. I guess most larger academic programs are more "malignant" than smaller community programs. Some programs stand out though. I was advised by my Chairman not to even apply to Duke. Yet the medical school I went to I would consider "malignant". Not because they were mean or a$$holes everywhere, but because residents were worked too hard and had to do too much scut work. My medical school should have had over 10 cats a year, instead they only had 6.

The fact of the matter is: some hospitals are just better than others. We all complain about ancillary staff, nursing, etc.... but some places are far worse than others (Grady, Jackson, Charity, etc...). When you have to work in these crapy conditions day in and day out for five years.... that's MALIGNANT.

 

[RedBlanket]

Originally posted by daredevil_2010
The fact of the matter is: some hospitals are just better than others. We all complain about ancillary staff, nursing, etc.... but some places are far worse than others (Grady, Jackson, Charity, etc...). When you have to work in these crapy conditions day in and day out for five years.... that's MALIGNANT.

I might have to disagree on this definition. You definitely pay a trade-off for the County experience. Having worked at LA County, Parkland (Dallas), Harborview (Seattle) and having visited Grady (Atlanta), the residents definitely all have very similar reactions to very similar institutional issues. Yes, an MD should in no way be made to do 1/2 of the garbage that goes on in these places. However, you will see things and learn things at big County hospitals that you will not experience at other places. On the other hand, if you are spending more than about 30-35% of your residency at a County hospital I could definitely see the scut/useful learning trade-off shifting in an unpleasant direction.

My concept of malignant is one of two situations:
1) Constant criticism (even if justified) with no positive feedback of any kind along with being treated as generally inferior even if you are busting your butt.
2) Irrational and unexcusable outbursts from significant numbers of, or powerful members of, your surgical attendings.

Getting snapped at for doing less than your best seems to me to be a reasonable part of surgical training, but when you factor in one of the above issues it shifts a program from "traditional" (not all bad) to "malignant" (avoid with the proverbial ten-foot pole).

Just my thoughts.

 

[Banker01]

I'm going to apologize upfront for my newbie-type question, but considering my post count, maybe you guys can cut me some slack. 😀

What exactly is meant by a malignant program? Is it the residency program or the school that makes is malignant? For instance, as someone who wants to go into a surgical residency, would going to UMDNJ-Newark (a mentioned malignant program) hurt me when it comes to getting such a residency or does that mean I would be at a disadvantage when looking for fellowships, etc. should I decide to do a surgical residency at UMDNJ.

Thanks again.

 

[Foxxy Cleopatra]

"Malignant" means different things depending on who you ask. I'm at one of the big county hospitals, and the weird thing is, I think the nursing staff is actually pretty good. I occasionally will transport patients, rarely will I have to do blood draws, etc. Getting films done (or much of anything for that matter on the weekend) on the other hand, can be like pulling teeth.

I would call "malignant" a place where the higher-up people go ballistic without offering any advice on how someone should improve. There is yelling in surgery; that part is fine in my opinion, but I think there should also be constructive advice to go along with it.

Most programs are making somewhat of an attempt to meet the 80-hour workweek. Some people may consider excessive hours malignant; this is a topic of contreversy. Personally, the hours (even when in excess) have not been a problem for me but then again, I'm not married and my pets don't care what time I come home in the evening.

IMO, the environment of a big county hospital can be annoying- you trade a nice environment for a diverse learning experience. You may find yourself doing a sh#tload of paperwork and dealing with social work/placement issues (while making it to the OR 4 times in a month)- as a surgery resident I find to be the most painful. The patient population tends to be hostile and ungrateful, so ironically, the things I would describe as malignant about the county hospital system is the environment itself, and not so much the staff or physicians.

I think if you are seriously considering one of the universities associated w/ a county hospital, check to see if you will also be rotating at other hospitals. This part can be a refreshing reminder that life in surgery isn't necessarily as hostile as what you are dealing with in residency.

 

[shag]

I've interviewed at UT-Southwestern and UMiami and was quite impressed by both programs.

Talking to folks along the trail, I've been given the impression that these programs are "malignant". My definition of a malignant program is one where residents are regularly treated poorly by upper levels and/or attendings and/or are consistently unhappy.

It seems that no medical students from UTSW matched in their home program last year, and it is rumored that several were ranked highly by this program. I've talked to a few folks and the only positive info that I hear is that UTSW is "a good program".

Little info is available about UMiami on the web and I had VERY little exposure to residents and NO exposure to interns during my interview. Rumor has it that they do not comply with the 80 hr work week and that attendings treat residents poorly and feel that they are too busy to teach.

Are these impressions accurate or way off base? Are residents happy at these locations?

 

[FUBAR]

I am VERY curious to get some info on this program. I have heard on the grapevine that it is malignant and not a nice place to be. in all honesty though, when i interviewed there last month, i didnt get a sense of that at all from ANY of the residents I talked to. The problem is that when u hear the same things about a program from many different people on the interview trail, you start to believe it.

I also talked to one of the ENT interns at U of M when I interviews up in Michigan who went to UT Houston, and he told me that the UT Houston med students HATE their surgery rotations. That kinda got me nervous too.

I apprecaite Seabass and VAspa's input. Especially VAspa, your input as an intern at UT Houston is invaluebale. I appreciate your input, and it makes me feel a little bit better about putting UT Houston on my rank list.

But if anyone else has any other info on this prog, it would be much appreciated.

Thanks.

 

[Arch Guillotti]

When I interviewed at Baylor for gas, there was a surgery intern from UT-Houston interviewing that day. He kept getting paged thru the day to answer calls. He never did come outright and say it, but it was obvious he disliked the program and that it was malignant. He said he did get yelled at a lot on the rotation he was currently on.

 

[shag]

Does anyone have any info about UTSW or UMiami?

 

[Phornakator]

"MALIGNANT" is probably an acronym for how malignant attendings view their trainees: My A$$-Licking Intern Grovels Nightly And Never Tires..."

 

[Phornakator]

.....As an aside, during my interview @ Mercy (Pittsburgh), the PD sat me down in a chair. On the desk in front of me, there was a model of skin/subcutaneous tissue (conveniently lacerated) and a pair of needle drivers loaded with 4-0 Vicryl... made me sew & tie right then & there. A little awkward, ya know.
Seemed a little "stuffy" at Mercy, also. I found it fairly interesting that the ONLY person who actually gave me a smile the whole day was the residency coordinator. I didn't get a chance to meet all the residents, but the ones I did meet (probably a fourth or third) never looked me in the eye. And for some reason -- I'm hoping it was just a bad day for them & they don't live like this all the time -- everyone seemed to have "the glass is half-empty attitude." Also, I've never ran away screaming from hard work, but there is an air of "oh yeah, prove yourself" that seemed to exude from the faculty who interviewed me. It was the only place out of 13 programs that I refuse to rank. I'm sure some of the residents probably love it there, but I talked to several who definately had quite different opinions about it. And, as food for thought, of the three categorical interns who matched there the past year, there's only one who is still there. Hmmm.

 

[Bovie9]

Is NYU a malignant program??? I think it used to be... not sure if it still that way.

 

[daredevil_2010]

I interviewed at both Miami and UTSW.

Both large county hospitals. Also huge VAs. I'm more familiar with Miami. You need to speak Spanish. Period. Creole helps too. The chairman is from Canada. So the program director. No one really knows him too well. The most famous Surgeons are probably Pancreatic Dude and endocrine dude. NeuroSurg and OMFS chairmen very well known. General Surgery Chair not known at all outside of Maimi. Super Busy program. Need 10 Cats a year. Don't know why they only have 6. Great Trauma. People don't know trauma until they work at Miami or Maryland. Maybe too much Trauma. Most hospitals have 30 total SICUs beds. Miami has over 30 just for Trauma ICU beds. Over 30 NeuroSurg ICU beds. Two HUGE SICUs. Over 80 ORs. Miami is a huge Surgery program. Tons of facility and tons of procedures. Ranks top 5 in almost all numbers of cases performed a year for a specific type of surgery. From the most simple... to the most complex (Small Bowel transplant, etc...). Every field well represented at Miami... and not just by 1 or 2 Attending. More like 5-6 in each department. HUGE program.

The hospital sucks. Beggers line the sidewalks. Computers date back to the stone age. Xrays still not digital. All on radiographic films that always get lost. Nursing sucks. Just plain awful. Generally wait days for a stat MRI. I heard the Miami VA ranked LAST of all VAs. Not too sure what that means. Attendings can be nice, but too busy. Too stressed out. No time to teach. When I interviewed there, Residents laughed at 80 hours. I assume they are compliant now. I have confirmed this with some medical students. Not too sure how they do this. Patients are probably suffering. No one cares... send them back to Haiti/Cuba/South America. Training foder as they say. Residents still using "horse and buggy" technology. Clinics are super grimy and dirty. Painful I hear. Must speak Spanish. Miami nice city to visit. Not so nice to live full time. People very rude. Traffic stinks. No one cares... since most illegal anyway.

 

[Ergo]

really?

guess I need to ask my friend but he seems pretty happy and he isn't the malignant type of personality. all the residents I've met seem happy and nice and have been more than helpful to me but then again, I'm not around at 3am or when things get rough.

So, youre a second year med student giving advice about your surgery department. Youre probably spending most of your time in a library at this point in your career, with maybe a few brief OR experiences if you are precocious. Anything else is second hand info.

An interesting bit of information would list how many of your grads choose to stay at UTH for surgery, and how their experiences compare to those at away rotations.

 

[phoenixsupra]

Seems like the programs that I keep hearing of as "malignant" are often the most prestigious. Do academic programs tend to be more malignant than community based ones. I'm trying to decide between the two. Anyone have any thoughts on this?

 

[Winged Scapula]

Seems like the programs that I keep hearing of as "malignant" are often the most prestigious. Do academic programs tend to be more malignant than community based ones. I'm trying to decide between the two. Anyone have any thoughts on this?

That is the conventional wisdom. However, it really depends on the program and the type of people it tends to draw and there may be certain elements of a program which may be more unpleasant (or "malignant") than others. Reasons often given: academic centers tend to draw more "cowboys" who are impressed with themselves, less concerned about teaching or not trained in teaching or interpersonal skills, more pressures to get research done, get ahead, etc. However, on the community side attendings are also not necessarily taught good teaching or interpersonal skills, may have more pressures because "time is moneY" (the more patients/cases they see/do, the more money they'll make and this may affect how much time they want to spend with you). I've seen both - pleasant and laid back individuals at academic places and nasty SOBs at community programs. Do academic programs tend to attract more of the latter? IMHO, yes but this is not a reason to remove these programs from your list if they have other things which are attractive to you. A large program with several SOBs is easier to handle IMHO than a small program with 1 SOB (whom you might interact with on a daily basis).

 

[phoenixsupra]

That is the conventional wisdom. However, it really depends on the program and the type of people it tends to draw and there may be certain elements of a program which may be more unpleasant (or "malignant") than others. Reasons often given: academic centers tend to draw more "cowboys" who are impressed with themselves, less concerned about teaching or not trained in teaching or interpersonal skills, more pressures to get research done, get ahead, etc. However, on the community side attendings are also not necessarily taught good teaching or interpersonal skills, may have more pressures because "time is moneY" (the more patients/cases they see/do, the more money they'll make and this may affect how much time they want to spend with you). I've seen both - pleasant and laid back individuals at academic places and nasty SOBs at community programs. Do academic programs tend to attract more of the latter? IMHO, yes but this is not a reason to remove these programs from your list if they have other things which are attractive to you. A large program with several SOBs is easier to handle IMHO than a small program with 1 SOB (whom you might interact with on a daily basis).

Thanks. 🙂 👍 Academic programs are larger in general, right?

 

[SocialistMD]

I am VERY curious to get some info on this program. I have heard on the grapevine that it is malignant and not a nice place to be. in all honesty though, when i interviewed there last month, i didnt get a sense of that at all from ANY of the residents I talked to. The problem is that when u hear the same things about a program from many different people on the interview trail, you start to believe it.

I also talked to one of the ENT interns at U of M when I interviews up in Michigan who went to UT Houston, and he told me that the UT Houston med students HATE their surgery rotations. That kinda got me nervous too.

I apprecaite Seabass and VAspa's input. Especially VAspa, your input as an intern at UT Houston is invaluebale. I appreciate your input, and it makes me feel a little bit better about putting UT Houston on my rank list.

There are ~18 people in my class going into general surgery. A lot can be said about a program's malignancy based on how many students from that school choose to go into a field.

I have met many people on the interview tour who have asked me about my program. What I have told them is this: Our program is only as malignant as the residents want it to be. The rotations are set up such that you can do everything within 80 hours/week. The problem that arises is due to the Texan mentality. Working hard is considered macho and manly, and complaining is seen as a sign of weakness down here. Therefore, many residents will work longer and lie about their hours because they want to work. The other residents (most of whom are not from Texas) understand why the rules are in place and see that working 80 hours/week is beneficial. However, in order to match the productivity of those residents who work over 80 hours, they, too, must work over 80 hours. These are the residents who are unhappy. From what I've gathered, this doesn't just happen at UT-Houston, but at most programs in Texas (to a greater or lesser extent).

In summation, UT-Houston is a good program on the rise (the current presidents of the Association of Surgical Education, Association of Program Directors in Surgery and Society of University Surgeons all work here, there is a new rotation in colorectal at Methodist, they are building a $14million skills lab, etc...), and if you are interested in trauma, this is one of the best places in the country to be.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Thanks. 🙂 👍 Academic programs are larger in general, right?

Probably, but there are obvious exceptions to this "rule". I've seen our other thread and its important to find a program where you'll fit in. I'm also not much of a fan of "snobishness" and would avoid programs where this was a factor. A good friend of mine is doing his fellowship at a "big name" and is constantly frustrated by the "holier than thou" attitude amongst his fellow fellows. This isn't the priority of big name places but they will attract a certain type of person who is impressed by pedigree. You can't make generalizations conform to all programs. however.

 

[SocialistMD]

So, youre a second year med student giving advice about your surgery department. Youre probably spending most of your time in a library at this point in your career, with maybe a few brief OR experiences if you are precocious. Anything else is second hand info.

An interesting bit of information would list how many of your grads choose to stay at UTH for surgery, and how their experiences compare to those at away rotations.

Don't be so condescending; it was only a couple of years ago when you were in her position. She was trying to help based on her knowledge. She never implied her statements were based on her rotations; in fact, she went out of her way to clarify the exact source of her information.

To address your concerns, there are generally 1-2 students/year who stay at our program. However, our program tries not to inbreed so as to train more complete surgeons, so I don't feel that is an accurate assessment of a program's malignancy (see also my previous post on the "Texan mentality" and how there are 18 students in my class going into general surgery, which indicates a positive experience during their clerkship). My experiences at my program are comparable to my experiences at my away rotations. Based on the pimp-sessions during rounds, I feel I am at least as equipped to manage patients as the 4th year students where I did my away (Pittsburgh), and I do not feel my program was more or less malignant than Pitt.

Again, I feel my program is strong and I would be honored to match here. Will it be my number 1? No, but that is because I miss the midwest and I want a program with more "general surgery" exposure that is less trauma-heavy. If my thing were trauma or surg onc (it is the University of Texas MD Anderson for a reason, you know), I would be in heaven here. However, my interests lie in another field that is stronger at other programs.

 

[praying4MD]

98% divorce rate? I mean, come on people. Really. I don't doubt that this attending told you that, but I definitely doubt its truth.

Baylor (houston) is not an "easy" place to train by any means whatsoever. Long hours, some difficult attendings, some hardcore people, no doubt. The upside is this: long hours at some incredible hospitals; I can't think of another hospital that can boast Ben Taub Trauma Center where Dr. Mattox resides, Methodist AND St. Luke's, Texas Children's Hospital, one of the largest Children's hospitals in the country, AND The largest VA in the country, and we even have a couple rotations through MD Anderson Cancer Hospital as well. I guess I am spoiled because after this exposure, I couldn't think of being trained at only one or even two hospitals.

In any case, regarding the malignancy: are there difficult personalities? Perhaps, but that is the trade off if you would like to be in the OR with the likes of Drs. DeBakey, Cooley, Mattox, and Frasier. As far as the other attendings, they are actually really, really nice people and I haven't had any horrid experiences with them in the OR. As for the residents, I didn't find many malignant ones at all, with of course, the exception of some women-surgeons with a chip on their shoulder (which you will find anywhere.) As for the 80 hr work week, people are definitely trying very very hard to adhere to this rule and it is usually successful. And as for the divorce/suicide rate: I simply don't believe what the poster wrote earlier. Many of our residents are happily married and the others enjoy life outside of residency, as much as they can anyway.

So overall, from a bcm MS3 student: our program is not malignant; it is grueling and hard, but that is a good thing and yes, if you are afraid of hard work, I don't suggest you come here. But if you do come here, you will thank your lucky stars when you're done that you were able to train at such an awesome instution with so many opportunities.

And for the poster who doubts the reliability of an MS3's opinions, remember, at baylor we start our clinical rotations 6 months earlier than the rest of the country so I've been in clinics a full year now.

 

[Bo Hurley]

Whichever program you go to you'll still be surrounded by surgeons. And surgeons are a self-selective bunch. Most are the same. Better to find a program that will train you to be the best you can be so you can handle cases on your own when you finish those 5 years of residency. You'll get used to the even most "malignant" attendings after a while. Waking up at 5 A.M. almost everday and dealing with the B.S. on a constant basis will do that to you. At first it may get to you, but soon enough it won't get through that thick skin of yours that they'll mold. That's why most surgeons snicker under their breath and roll their eyes on the stand when the prosecuting lawyer tries to rattle them during cross-examination in a med-mal suit.

 

[md8047]

There are definitely programs in Texas with "malignant" but "good" reputations - UTSW (Parkland) and Baylor Houston come to mind. There's a fair amout of cowboy boot wearing machoism at both these programs, but they do have a reputation of putting out excellent surgeons.