March Madness Match Mayhem

[libertyyne]

Since the other thread is just for Match posting, can we have a thread for match discussion.


How strong would you consider this list?
Anesthesiology-14
UMichx3
WSU/DMC
Stanford
BI Deaconess
Icahn
Case Western
Emory
Cedars-Sinai (CA)
Beaumont
MCW
UCincy
Northwestern (research)
Kaiser Permanente (Med Prelim/CA)

Dermatology-5
Cleveland Clinic
Wayne SOMx2
Cook County-Stroger (IL)
Barnes-Jewish (MO)

Diagnostic Radiology-14
Barnes Jewish
McMasters (Canada)
Henry Ford (MI)x5
DMC/WSUx2 (MI)
Oakwood Hospital (MI)
Beaumont (MI
Hofstra Northwell SOM

ENT-4
MUSC
UMinn
Rutgers
Henry Ford (MI)

IR-Integrated-1
Beaumont (MI)

Emergency Medicine-33
Washington Hospital Center
Detroit Med Ct/WSUx12
Grand Rapids Med Ed Partnersx2
St. John Hospital (MI)x6
Beaumont Hospital (MI)
Allegheny Hospital (PA)
UCincy
Umichx2
Henry Ford Hospital (MI)x2
Columbia&Cornell (NY)
BI Deaconess (MA)
Loma Linda
UT Southwestern
Yale (research)

Family Medicine-28
UIllinois COM-Rockford
Grand Rapids Med Ed Partnersx2
U Arizona MO
UMich
Oakwoodx4
UCSD
UP Health System Marquette (MI, upper peninsula)
Mid Michigan Med Center
Ft. Wayne Med
Western University (Canada)
St. Mary Mercy (MI
Mercy Memorial Hospital (MI)
UNC
Mayo Clinic -La Crosse (WI)
Kaiser Permanente Fontona (CA)
UToronto
Grtr Lawrence Family Health Ctr (MA)
OHSU
FSU
Beaumont Hospital (MI) x3

General Surgery-11
UMaryland
Cleveland Clinic
DMCx2 (MI)
Henry Fordx2 (MI)
Naval Medical Center (Portsmouth)
UVirginia
MCW
Rush
UT St. Thomas Hospital (TN)

Internal Medicine-48
DMCx4
Rushx3
Beaumont (MI) x2
Temple
Olive View UCLA
USC
Mayo (MN)
UT Houston
UMichigan
McMasters
Henry Fordx9
McMasters (Canada)
Baylorx2
Northwestern
UBuffalo
UTennessee
St. Mary Mercy (MI)
Mt. Carmel Health (OH)
UPenn x2
Kaiser Permanente (CA)
UCincy
UToledo (OH)
UCSD
Indiana Universityx3
Boston Universityx2
Grand Rapids Med Ed Partners (MI)
MCW
Hofstra
Mayo (MN)
University of Chicago

Med-Preliminary-4
UHawaii
UC Irvine
St. Johns Riverside (NY)
St. Joseph Hospital SCL (CO)

Med-Peds-7
DMCx3
Western MI
UMich
UPMCx2

Neurosurgery-2
MUSC (SC)
DMC/WSU (MI)

Neurology-3
Michigan
Henry Ford
University of Utah

OB/GYN-10
DMC (MI)x4
Cedars Sinai (CA)
Beaumont (MI)
Sparrow Hospital (MI)
Umaryland
Central Michigan
Henry Ford

Ophthamology-8
Loyola
Henry Ford (MI)
Indiana
Kresge Eye (MI)x2
Wake Forest
Case Western
Indiana

Ortho-12
SLU (research fellowship)
UCincy (research fellowship)
Yale
UToledo
DMCx2
Henry Fordx2
UToronto
UFlorida COM
UKentucky
SUNY-Upstate

Pathology-4
UMich
UC Davis
Henry Ford
Baylor

Pediatrics-19
Beaumont (MI)
Chil. Hosp of MIx4
MCW
Vanderbilt
UT Southwestern
Louisville
Childrens National Med Center (DC)
Childrens Mercy Hospital (MO)
Grand Rapids Med Ed Partnersx3
Harpor UCLA
UC Irvine (Pediatrics/UCI-CHOC)
Indiana (Pediatrics/EM comb)
UFlorida-Shands

PM&R-3
VA Greater LA Hlth Sys
UColorado
Harvard Spauling Rehad Hosp (MA)

Psychiatry-14
UFlorida Shands
Henry Ford (MI)x2
DMCx3 (MI)
Pine Rest Christian (MI)
Rush
Jackson Memorial
St. Mercy (MI)
UNC
UT Southwestern
UWisconsin
Loyola

Rad-ONC-2
MD Anderson
Beaumont (MI)

Urology-6

Henry Ford (MI)x3
Rush
Emory
University of Nebraska

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[Astra]

holy crap that's a big class.

 

[libertyyne]

holy crap that's a big class.

 

[Astra]

quick, make a bar graph with specialties on the X-axis. Its the only way we can examine the data.


But from my limited knowledge, that looks like a good match list. Tons of specialties represented and I see some famous schools. I'm certain some of those people ended up at top residencies so its possible to get to a top tier residency.

I'd rate it a 5/7 with rice

 

[Frazier]

Wayne?

 

[libertyyne]

Wayne?

Yup. Class size plus 20 em matches at DMC give it away

 

[Frazier]

Yup. Class size plus 20 em matches at DMC give it away

Yeah, when I saw the 33 I remembered it without even looking through programs.
Pretty solid collective performance.

 

[Psai]

who cares

 

[libertyyne]

who cares

Those anasthesia matches any good ?

 

[sammiesings]

What are the meh matches here?

Dermatology seems like one, Neurosurgery too?

 

[SunsFun]

Without proper context critiquing this list is about as useful as elaborating on someone's chances of matching ENT before they take step 1.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app

 

[libertyyne]

What are the meh matches here?

Dermatology seems like one, Neurosurgery too?

I wouldnt consider any NSG or Derm matches as meh!

 

[sammiesings]

I wouldnt consider any NSG or Derm matches as meh!

lol very good point.

 

[Dinkin Flicka]

Ah my future neurotic classmate...

 

[sovereign0]

Interpreting match lists never really made sense to me.

The specialty breakdown is all a wash since that's entirely individual.

The inter-specialty program breakdown is rarely surprising. It's often reliable that 75-90% of students at top-20 schools will match at top residency programs within the field. Mid-tiers will match like ~25% of their students at top programs.

 

[libertyyne]

Interpreting match lists never really made sense to me.

The specialty breakdown is all a wash since that's entirely individual.

The inter-specialty program breakdown is rarely surprising. It's often reliable that 75-90% of students at top-20 schools will match at top residency programs within the field. Mid-tiers will match like ~25% of their students at top programs.

I do feel like if there are people matching into the specialty you are interested in consistently accross years that means that the school has the ability to place you in those fields. At the end of the day, that really is the most meaningful information interested people can gleam. Wayne consistently places people in NSG, (provided the large class size contributes to this) But that just means that going to wayne in all likelihood have the resources to place you into that field since they consistently place students there. Looking at a different school where there is rarely anyone who matches over a 5 year period in that specialty this is meaningful information.

 

[sovereign0]

I do feel like if there are people matching into the specialty you are interested in consistently accross years that means that the school has the ability to place you in those fields. At the end of the day, that really is the most meaningful information interested people can gleam. Wayne consistently places people in NSG, (provided the large class size contributes to this) But that just means that going to wayne in all likelihood have the resources to place you into that field since they consistently place students there. Looking at a different school where there is rarely anyone who matches over a 5 year period in that specialty this is meaningful information.

People always make that argument, but I'm not convinced. Wayne consistently places people into NSG because, due to the class size, there are always people interested in NSG within the class. If Mayo Rochester didn't match anyone into NSG for a couple years, would you go to Wayne over Mayo under the assumption that Wayne is a better school if you want to be a neurosurgeon? It's far more likely that the small class size at Mayo just didn't yield anyone interested in NSG those years.

There is no doubt that the resources of the school are a big factor in residency placement, but reading a match list isn't a good way to get that information. Does the school have close affiliations with strong teaching hospitals? Is the school associated with residency training programs in most/all fields? That's all the information you need, and you can find that a lot easier than trying to interpret a match list. That's the same information you're trying to quantify, but instead of going to the source, you're looking at a data source that is confounded by numerous other factors - namely the interests of the applicant. You're indirectly measuring something that is already directly observable. It's bad research.

The value of "reading" a match list is stratifying the caliber of programs that people are placed into within each specialty. This is pretty much directly related to the prestige of the school, as I mentioned earlier, and is pretty consistent/reliable data. Mid-tiers match people into mid-tiers and a portion of upper tiers. Most everyone at an elite school matches into an elite residency, a large portion of those being due to inbreeding. Match lists can be viewed as a measure of the reputation of a school among training programs. That's about where their utility ends.

 

[Stagg737]

People always make that argument, but I'm not convinced. Wayne consistently places people into NSG because, due to the class size, there are always people interested in NSG within the class. If Mayo Rochester didn't match anyone into NSG for a couple years, would you go to Wayne over Mayo under the assumption that Wayne is a better school if you want to be a neurosurgeon? It's far more likely that the small class size at Mayo just didn't yield anyone interested in NSG those years.

There is no doubt that the resources of the school are a big factor in residency placement, but reading a match list isn't a good way to get that information. Does the school have close affiliations with strong teaching hospitals? Is the school associated with residency training programs in most/all fields? That's all the information you need, and you can find that a lot easier than trying to interpret a match list. That's the same information you're trying to quantify, but instead of going to the source, you're looking at a data source that is confounded by numerous other factors - namely the interests of the applicant. You're indirectly measuring something that is already directly observable. It's bad research.

The value of "reading" a match list is stratifying the caliber of programs that people are placed into within each specialty. This is pretty much directly related to the prestige of the school, as I mentioned earlier, and is pretty consistent/reliable data. Mid-tiers match people into mid-tiers and a portion of upper tiers. Most everyone at an elite school matches into an elite residency, a large portion of those being due to inbreeding. Match lists can be viewed as a measure of the reputation of a school among training programs. That's about where their utility ends.

I think there are a few more details you can glean, but you've got to look at a few years worth of match lists and not just a single year. If you see a school hasn't matched anyone into derm in the past 5 years (unless they're class size is that small), that might say something. At the same time, if Med School X has matched people into Neurosurgery at Residency Program Y 5 out of the past 6 years, it probably shows that med school has a decent relationship with the residency program, or at the very least that Residency Y recognizes that Med School X produces some solid candidates for their program. Again though, you can't glean that from a single year's match list and have to look at trends occurring through multiple match years.

 

[sovereign0]

I think there are a few more details you can glean, but you've got to look at a few years worth of match lists and not just a single year. If you see a school hasn't matched anyone into derm in the past 5 years (unless they're class size is that small), that might say something. At the same time, if Med School X has matched people into Neurosurgery at Residency Program Y 5 out of the past 6 years, it probably shows that med school has a decent relationship with the residency program, or at the very least that Residency Y recognizes that Med School X produces some solid candidates for their program. Again though, you can't glean that from a single year's match list and have to look at trends occurring through multiple match years.

I don't think you'd find many surprises even then. Specific med school to program relationships are either going to be regional or inbreeding. Anything with a bigger distance factor than that is more likely to be a function of school prestige. Prestigious schools are more likely to have prestigious faculty. I still don't think that match lists are anything that someone should be basing their med school attendance on.

Plus, the OP seemed to think that match lists had broader implications than simple school-program relationships.

Even if there is stuff to be learned from match lists that isn't more easily found elsewhere, I highly doubt it is worth the fascination and borderline obsession that some people have with their interpretation.

 

[libertyyne]

I don't think you'd find many surprises even then. Specific med school to program relationships are either going to be regional or inbreeding. Anything with a bigger distance factor than that is more likely to be a function of school prestige. Prestigious schools are more likely to have prestigious faculty. More prestige a faculty member has, the broader their name has influence. I still don't think that match lists are anything that someone should be basing their med school attendance on.

Even if there is stuff to be learned from match lists that isn't more easily found elsewhere, I highly doubt it is worth the fascination and borderline obsession that some people have with their interpretation.

Looking at the match lists for the past 5 years one finds that the above school places NSG residents in states on both costs while being in the midwest. Not a prestigious school . Furthermore, there is atleast an idea of where you can place, I bet there is some sort of alumni effect in place as well especially for long residencies. All that this show cases is that that program has taken residents from the school in quesiton in the past and is likely open to taking them in the future. Plus current or future students can atleast point and say I have proof that the school can place a resident in a particular program since it has done so in the past.

Also even if home programs are attached to the school placements outside in the same specialty means they are 1. providing good advice to place. 2. they are probably respected if other schools are willing to take their word on prospective residents. 3. They probably have opportunities and encourage involvement. This particular schools volume of EM matches speaks to this effect that they have a strong presence in the school and may influence some of the students into choosing EM.

 

[Stagg737]

I don't think you'd find many surprises even then. Specific med school to program relationships are either going to be regional or inbreeding. Anything with a bigger distance factor than that is more likely to be a function of school prestige. Prestigious schools are more likely to have prestigious faculty. I still don't think that match lists are anything that someone should be basing their med school attendance on.

Plus, the OP seemed to think that match lists had broader implications than simple school-program relationships.

Even if there is stuff to be learned from match lists that isn't more easily found elsewhere, I highly doubt it is worth the fascination and borderline obsession that some people have with their interpretation.

I agree with most of that, especially that trying to interpret stuff from a single match list is mostly unfounded extrapolation. I also agree that geographic region or school-program connections does play a role a lot of times, but sometimes a program has good experiences with students from a school and is more open to interviewing applicants from there. For example, the DO school I attend has matched people into an elite dermatology program about 500 miles away for several years now. As far as I know, our school has no connections with the institution the residency is associated with including research and faculty. We just had a student or two match there who they really liked and it seemed to have opened the door for others from our school to match there. That's kind of what I was referring to in my previous post. It does take some comparisons with multiple match lists and even then it doesn't really guarantee that's actually the case or that institutional recognition was why they matched there.

 

[sovereign0]

Looking at the match lists for the past 5 years one finds that the above school places NSG residents in states on both costs while being in the midwest. Not a prestigious school .

This is a function of individual student merit. That's my point. If you want to go into a certain specialty, you can do it from any US MD school if you prove you have the chops for it. Not to mention that smaller fields have fewer spots and are more likely to be at academic centers. Most academic centers are on the coasts.

If your class size is as large as Wayne State's you're going to have a big number of students every year who are well-qualified. A portion of those will be interested in NSG. It's that easy.

The biggest piece of the puzzle an individual school is gonna contribute will be good mentorship and clinical opportunities.

Also even if home programs are attached to the school placements outside in the same specialty means they are 1. providing good advice to place. 2. they are probably respected if other schools are willing to take their word on prospective residents. 3. They probably have opportunities and encourage involvement. This particular schools volume of EM matches speaks to this effect that they have a strong presence in the school and may influence some of the students into choosing EM.

As I said, if the school has a department/residency program in the field of interest you have easy access to #1 and #3.

#2 isn't really a driving force for competitive residencies picking their residents. Individual achievement and qualification is a bigger deal. The only "word" that matters is letters of rec in the relevant field. If you have an in-house department / residency program, then you have access to faculty in the field who you can cultivate a relationship with.