Marine reserves and med school

[blbrooks]

It's been discussed in other threads as well but everyone has there individual questions. Im hoping some of you may be able and willing to answer mine. I'm a senior in high school at an early college (I'll graduate high school with my diploma and an associate degree). I've had my mind set on college and now my life is planned around it. I've already chosen my college and my scholarships have it all paid for. I should have my bachelors in biology by the age 20. I have a strong desire to be a surgeon and ever since I was a child I haven't been able to break it. That is the path I am currently taking.
However there is another desire I haven't been able to break. The Marines corps has been a passion as well and I've finally accepted that it may be a path I'd like to take. Recruiters have recommended I enlist before college. It is a little too late to make changes and I don't plan on it either. I'd like to learn if there is a way to balance med school, marines, and basically life. My questions are:

- Would taking one year off before med school to complete boot camp and my mos training be enough and manageable?
- How will reserves (or active) affect my education? For reserves I would be leaving for training roughly one weekend of every month.
- If I am deployed what would happen with the courses /credits I haven't completed?
- Are there doctors or med students who've been through military and med school (same time) that I could speak to more in depth?
- Would becoming a marine officer have a positive or negative difference if any at all?
- What advice or recommendations would you med students and doctors give me?
- What kind of income do med students usually have and is there any advice for surviving those four years?

For the most part I know what I want. There's not much that can change my mind but there is much more I could educate myself on. My main priority is to be a doctor. The military is a strong desire and I'd like for it to be a part of my life but my civilian career is more important at the moment. If I bail on doctor I do have a back up plan with my biology degree in criminal justice but doctor is mostly set in stone.

I'd like to thank anyone who helps. I may have further questions, for now I appreciate you sharing your knowledge.

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[Stagg737]

Word from someone that almost took a military scholarship for med school. Do NOT trust what the recruiters tell you. Their goal is to get you to enlist, and 99% of the time they don't care what your other career plans are because their entire job is to get you to enlist. Once you enlist, whatever they told you doesn't really matter, the military OWNS you until you leave. I'm not military, but as I said I almost was (I decided not to take the scholarship after talking to a military physician) and I know several people in med school who either were in the military before school or are still in the military and on an HPSP scholarship. As for your questions:

- Would taking one year off before med school to complete boot camp and my mos training be enough and manageable?

What is the reason/goal of doing this? Is it so you can go active sooner? Once you finish training, are you going to go back to school or serve for a while first (they may require you to serve before they pay for schooling or in order to stay in the military)? What mos are you planning on pursuing? These are questions we need to know in order to help.

- How will reserves (or active) affect my education? For reserves I would be leaving for training roughly one weekend of every month.

Reserves you'd be fine. I talked to a few people in med school who are reserves, and they said they basically drive a few hours away, get put in a room, and study together for the weekend. It's nbd. Plus with reserves you only get called up if you're needed. Idk about undergrad, but the military tends to avoid pulling people out of med school to serve as it actually hurts them more in the long run (they're losing a potential future physician or extending his education and prolonging the time until he can be a military physician).

- If I am deployed what would happen with the courses /credits I haven't completed?

Depends on the school. If you get pulled out halfway through a semester you'd get a W (withdrawal). This basically means you didn't complete the course and won't get credit for it. So you'd have to re-take them. A lot of times you don't want to have a W on your transcript, but if it were for military reasons med schools wouldn't hold it against you as long as you went back and retook the classes.

- Are there doctors or med students who've been through military and med school (same time) that I could speak to more in depth?

There's an entire forum on this site for military medicine. You'll get some really great advice on there, and hear about the reality of being a military physician. I'll include some useful threads at the end, but the forum has a lot of current and past military students/docs you can talk to. You'll hear some really eye-opening stuff there.

- Would becoming a marine officer have a positive or negative difference if any at all?

Depends when you're doing it. Before med school it would look good. It shows you've got commitment, dedication, and are probably a really hard-worker. If you're doing it while in med school, people will probably look at it positively, but it will make succeeding in med school harder as you're just adding another responsibility to your plate, which is a very bad idea for many people in med school.

- What advice or recommendations would you med students and doctors give me?

DO NOT LISTEN TO RECRUITERS. They oftentimes have no idea what they're talking about when it comes to military medicine or will straight lie to your face (had both happen to me when I was looking at the HPSP scholarship). The exception I'd make is if you manage to find a recruiter who is specifically trying to recruit military physicians, because they actually know all the intricacies of that system. Be careful though, I talked to 4 different recruiters, and none of them were this type of recruiter (even though 2 of them claimed they were). Go to the mil-med forums and talk to people on there. They'll give you honest straightforward advice and will know what doing medicine and the military is actually like and what it encompasses.

Link to the mil-med sub-forum:
Military Medicine

- What kind of income do med students usually have and is there any advice for surviving those four years?

Income is typically 0. We take out loans (mostly fed loans) to cover med school with the understanding that once you finish residency paying them off isn't a problem unless you racked up 500k or live like a superstar. Some people get scholarships from the school or outside sources. Generally speaking though we rely on fed loans and do just fine. If you plan on entering the military, you may want to look into the HPSP. It pays for tuition, gives you ~$2,000 /month as a stipend, and you get a $25k bonus for signing on. The catch is that for each year you take the scholarship, you owe 1 year of military service (which you can pay back by working for them as a physician). It sounds pretty sweet, but it's actually not a good deal financially because military physicians are paid significantly less than civilian docs are. If you plan on serving in the military pretty extensively or working as a military physician, it's a good deal. If you're only doing the scholarship for the money (which is largely why I was considering it), you're actually better off just taking out loans from the gov. The best way to save money in med school, is to attend a med school with cheaper tuition. There are definitely advantages to doing to an Ivy League school or a top 20 program, but if you're not going into academic medicine, don't care about prestige, or aren't shooting for a hyper-competitive specialty (surgery is not one of those), then you're probably better off going to a mid-tier state school and paying 20-30k less per year.

Something to keep in mind when considering military medicine: If you feel a strong need or feel like you have a calling to serve but also want to be a doctor, then the HPSP scholarship is a great way to help accomplish both. You will be locked into some commitments that many people would not find desirable for your future (ultimately why I declined), but people who want to serve don't have as much of a problem with this. If you just want to be a reserve, don't want a long-term commitment to the military, or are mostly in it for the money, then I would avoid the HPSP/military in med school. Everyone I've talked to has said not to take it unless you know you're committed to serving the country. I've also seen many people that were committed become burned out and jaded and say they wish they hadn't gone the military route. Another thing to keep in mind with the military is that you will not receive any sort of retirement or benefits package unless you serve 20 years with them. So while many civilian docs can start paying into retirement as soon as they finish residency (or even in residency for some), military docs will collect nothing if they don't serve 20 years.

If you have financial questions, "The White Coat Investor" is probably the best resource out there about how to handle money as a med student/resident/physician. Plus, he was a military physician who took the HPSP, so his info will be very relevant to anyone considering that route. He's also a member of SDN and posts on here regularly, so you could try PMing him, but idk if he'd respond.


Relevant military med threads:

Talking to a recruiter: HPSP Recruiter Meeting
Interview with a mil-med doc: The Health Professions Scholarship Program (HPSP) Scholarship
About the HPSP:
HPSP Financial Analysis
The HPSP Scholarship - New overview and review
Hpsp Faq (look at playaodamonth's post for an indepth explanation of HPSP compared to civilian route)

 

[xffan624]

It's been discussed in other threads as well but everyone has there individual questions. Im hoping some of you may be able and willing to answer mine. I'm a senior in high school at an early college (I'll graduate high school with my diploma and an associate degree). I've had my mind set on college and now my life is planned around it. I've already chosen my college and my scholarships have it all paid for. I should have my bachelors in biology by the age 20. I have a strong desire to be a surgeon and ever since I was a child I haven't been able to break it. That is the path I am currently taking.
However there is another desire I haven't been able to break. The Marines corps has been a passion as well and I've finally accepted that it may be a path I'd like to take. Recruiters have recommended I enlist before college. It is a little too late to make changes and I don't plan on it either. I'd like to learn if there is a way to balance med school, marines, and basically life. My questions are:

- Would taking one year off before med school to complete boot camp and my mos training be enough and manageable?
- How will reserves (or active) affect my education? For reserves I would be leaving for training roughly one weekend of every month.
- If I am deployed what would happen with the courses /credits I haven't completed?
- Are there doctors or med students who've been through military and med school (same time) that I could speak to more in depth?
- Would becoming a marine officer have a positive or negative difference if any at all?
- What advice or recommendations would you med students and doctors give me?
- What kind of income do med students usually have and is there any advice for surviving those four years?

For the most part I know what I want. There's not much that can change my mind but there is much more I could educate myself on. My main priority is to be a doctor. The military is a strong desire and I'd like for it to be a part of my life but my civilian career is more important at the moment. If I bail on doctor I do have a back up plan with my biology degree in criminal justice but doctor is mostly set in stone.

I'd like to thank anyone who helps. I may have further questions, for now I appreciate you sharing your knowledge.

You mentioned enlisting. You will not be an officer if you enlist. Very different paths. You cannot be an officer until you have a college degree and there is no guarantee you can become one once you enlist and get your degree. You also cannot be physician in the Marine Corps. Marines are seen by Navy physicians. I guess what I'm unclear about is your position currently. Are you a high school student? College student?

If you're interested in being a military physician, don't enlist or sign anything until you have an acceptance to medical school. If you're just interested in being in the military, just go active duty after finishing college, do a couple years to scratch that itch, and apply to medical school. Use your GI bill to pay for medical school. Profit. Doing the reserves in college and/or medical school makes little sense without better understanding of your long term goals.

 

[MusicDOc124]

Short answer: If your priority is becoming a doctor = no.

- Would taking one year off before med school to complete boot camp and my mos training be enough and manageable?
No. Training will take close to a year and will affect your ability to go on interviews.

- How will reserves (or active) affect my education? For reserves I would be leaving for training roughly one weekend of every month.
Active, you will not be in med school. Reserve you will end up missing a few days of class here and there, and if you have exams on those days, you're likely getting a 0. If you are serving by the time you apply, that will negatively affect your app because you will take a seat from someone who doesn't have to miss (or delay graduation) for any known/very potential reason.

- If I am deployed what would happen with the courses /credits I haven't completed?
Med school is not like undergrad. You don't just pick up and walk away and come back later. You don't have the opportunity to pick up at other schools. I pose this question to you: Deployment set for June between yr 1 and 2... You train during the 2nd half of year 1, and you are gone first half of yr 2. You just started and you're already 2 years behind for a single deployment. This doesn't look good for residency. Also, I know at some schools (if not all), you have 6 years to graduate, or they kick you out. Med school is 4 years, so if something medical happens you can take a year off, some may do a research year, but they pushed closer to the 6 year limit. The only exception I know to this (for where the policy is in place) or for MD/PhD and DO/PhD students who take 7 years, but it's a dual degree plan on the physician-scientist track.

- Are there doctors or med students who've been through military and med school (same time) that I could speak to more in depth?
Very few. Those who have are on the HPSP scholarship, attend(ed) the military med school, or were in the Army Reserve or Army National Guard in a program meant for you to become a doctor, and some of those who did that program had issues if the command didn't let them stay at school for a Thursday or Friday when there was an exam. You will lose a lot of study time.

- Would becoming a marine officer have a positive or negative difference if any at all?
If you were one first, positive. There is no becoming one after or during, realistically speaking.

- What advice or recommendations would you med students and doctors give me?
If becoming a doctor is your priority, forget about the Marine Corps - Consider Navy HPSP and working with Marines or becoming a Marine first, then going to med school. That's what I did, but I didn't intend on becoming a doctor until after I have already served.

- What kind of income do med students usually have and is there any advice for surviving those four years?
$0.00


If becoming a doctor is your priority - becoming a Marine is out of the question, realistically. If you join after college, you're delaying your priority, You can't become a Marine and serve while in med school (realistically speaking), and without prior service, you may not even be able to join after becoming a doctor (including residency) due to age. If you serve in the Marines after becoming a doc before residency, you screw over chances at becoming an attending and you will most likely have skill atrophy by the time your service is complete.

 

[blbrooks]

I'm entirely aware the marines doesn't have physicians. To clear up some confusion I'd like to be a civilian doctor not a military doctor. My initial plan was to take the year off just for training then straight to med school with reserves. My reason being was so my MCAT is still valid and what I learned in college is fairly fresh in my mind. I haven't decided on a mos yet but most can be completed before another school year starts. Finding a mos may be the next topic I look into.
As for the GI bill and military scholarships, that's not why I'd like to join. Being given money is always nice but I'm willing to just pay off student loans like most people. The HPSP won't apply for marines either. The marines is the only branch I'm interested and passionate about. I would get the four year contract but most likely stay in the military for longer.
It gets confusing explaining my education status to people. Yes I am a high school student. For the four years of high school i have also been taking college courses and dual credit (I'm enrolled at the college). I will graduate from high school with my diploma this year as well as Vincennes University in April with a general associate degree.
In response to xffan624, will my MCAT (and what ever else may apply) be valid and acceptable for med school if I go the active duty route for a few years first?

 

[deleted480308]

If your main goal is med school this is a bad plan

 

[xffan624]

I'm entirely aware the marines doesn't have physicians. To clear up some confusion I'd like to be a civilian doctor not a military doctor. My initial plan was to take the year off just for training then straight to med school with reserves. My reason being was so my MCAT is still valid and what I learned in college is fairly fresh in my mind. I haven't decided on a mos yet but most can be completed before another school year starts. Finding a mos may be the next topic I look into.
As for the GI bill and military scholarships, that's not why I'd like to join. Being given money is always nice but I'm willing to just pay off student loans like most people. The HPSP won't apply for marines either. The marines is the only branch I'm interested and passionate about. I will get the four year contract but most likely stay in the military for longer.
It gets confusing explaining my education status to people. Yes I am a high school student. For the four years of high school i have also been taking college courses and dual credit (I'm enrolled at the college). I will graduate from high school with my diploma this year as well as Vincennes University in April with a general associate degree.
In response to xffan624, will my MCAT (and what ever else may apply) be valid and acceptable for med school if I go the active duty route for a few years first?

If you take your MCAT in college it will likely not be. You can certainly take it closer to your application date without having to retake courses and whatnot. It just requires some more extensive studying than the average pre-med. I did it and got a competitive score. Have you taken the standard premed courses as part of your degree?

I'm sorry but it makes no sense to stay in the military as a marine reserve officer while in residency and beyond. You will be gaining a specific skill as a physician. Any significant time not doing this skill (ie during a deployment or whenever) is a detriment to your practice. Not to mention, the reserves will take away from valuable earning potential (the salary you make as an officer will be a pittance compared to your physician salary) and what little free time you have as a physician.

My advice as a former active duty military officer: Go active duty in whatever branch you want. Gain some experience and maturity. Medical school will be waiting for you and you will have the GI bill available to you when you are done and you can be a civilian doctor with minimal (possibly no) debt upon finishing medical school.

 

[blbrooks]

Short answer: If your priority is becoming a doctor = no.

- Would taking one year off before med school to complete boot camp and my mos training be enough and manageable?
No. Training will take close to a year and will affect your ability to go on interviews.

- How will reserves (or active) affect my education? For reserves I would be leaving for training roughly one weekend of every month.
Active, you will not be in med school. Reserve you will end up missing a few days of class here and there, and if you have exams on those days, you're likely getting a 0. If you are serving by the time you apply, that will negatively affect your app because you will take a seat from someone who doesn't have to miss (or delay graduation) for any known/very potential reason.

- If I am deployed what would happen with the courses /credits I haven't completed?
Med school is not like undergrad. You don't just pick up and walk away and come back later. You don't have the opportunity to pick up at other schools. I pose this question to you: Deployment set for June between yr 1 and 2... You train during the 2nd half of year 1, and you are gone first half of yr 2. You just started and you're already 2 years behind for a single deployment. This doesn't look good for residency. Also, I know at some schools (if not all), you have 6 years to graduate, or they kick you out. Med school is 4 years, so if something medical happens you can take a year off, some may do a research year, but they pushed closer to the 6 year limit. The only exception I know to this (for where the policy is in place) or for MD/PhD and DO/PhD students who take 7 years, but it's a dual degree plan on the physician-scientist track.

- Are there doctors or med students who've been through military and med school (same time) that I could speak to more in depth?
Very few. Those who have are on the HPSP scholarship, attend(ed) the military med school, or were in the Army Reserve or Army National Guard in a program meant for you to become a doctor, and some of those who did that program had issues if the command didn't let them stay at school for a Thursday or Friday when there was an exam. You will lose a lot of study time.

- Would becoming a marine officer have a positive or negative difference if any at all?
If you were one first, positive. There is no becoming one after or during, realistically speaking.

- What advice or recommendations would you med students and doctors give me?
If becoming a doctor is your priority, forget about the Marine Corps - Consider Navy HPSP and working with Marines or becoming a Marine first, then going to med school. That's what I did, but I didn't intend on becoming a doctor until after I have already served.

- What kind of income do med students usually have and is there any advice for surviving those four years?
$0.00


If becoming a doctor is your priority - becoming a Marine is out of the question, realistically. If you join after college, you're delaying your priority, You can't become a Marine and serve while in med school (realistically speaking), and without prior service, you may not even be able to join after becoming a doctor (including residency) due to age. If you serve in the Marines after becoming a doc before residency, you screw over chances at becoming an attending and you will most likely have skill atrophy by the time your service is complete.

I really do appreciate how honest and straight forward you are with this. A lot of people tell me if it is doable or not and you inform me of how difficult it would be. I still would like to find other ways to have both before given up the marines.

Would it be realistic to join after med school?
Couldn't I do at least a portion of my residency during med school?
I'm not in the best shape for boot camp but is it possible to join before college? What changes would I have to make since I've applied for the fall of 2017? I only have hopefully two years of college to go to receive my bachelors.

I want to educate myself as much as possible about both commitments (doctor & marines) before I make big decisions and regarding them. I'm not ready to give up on the marines. Since you have the knowledge of both I'd like to know from your opinion. If you have any suggestions or advice I'm happy to hear.

 

[deleted480308]

I really do appreciate how honest and straight forward you are with this. A lot of people tell me if it is doable or not and you inform me of how difficult it would be. I still would like to find other ways to have both before given up the marines.

Would it be realistic to join after med school?
Couldn't I do at least a portion of my residency during med school?
I'm not in the best shape for boot camp but is it possible to join before college? What changes would I have to make since I've applied for the fall of 2017? I only have hopefully two years of college to go to receive my bachelors.

I want to educate myself as much as possible about both commitments (doctor & marines) before I make big decisions and regarding them. I'm not ready to give up on the marines. Since you have the knowledge of both I'd like to know from your opinion. If you have any suggestions or advice I'm happy to hear.

After is significantly easier if you give up the requirement that it be marines and accept the other branches. Barring a disqualifying illness you can join the military as a doc into your 50s. You can sign up for some enlisted jobs with more restrictions

Reserves while in med school if your army job isn't medical school has some significant draw backs. Deployment would hugely disrupt your progress

 

[MusicDOc124]

I really do appreciate how honest and straight forward you are with this. A lot of people tell me if it is doable or not and you inform me of how difficult it would be. I still would like to find other ways to have both before given up the marines.

Would it be realistic to join after med school?
Couldn't I do at least a portion of my residency during med school?
I'm not in the best shape for boot camp but is it possible to join before college? What changes would I have to make since I've applied for the fall of 2017? I only have hopefully two years of college to go to receive my bachelors.

I want to educate myself as much as possible about both commitments (doctor & marines) before I make big decisions and regarding them. I'm not ready to give up on the marines. Since you have the knowledge of both I'd like to know from your opinion. If you have any suggestions or advice I'm happy to hear.

I understand you're young. I had similar questions when I was younger, wanting to do everything/be efficient/do it all at the same time/advance quickly.

Unless you serve first, and complete your contract. There is no way both medical school and the Marine Corps are in your future.

I am a Marine. I am in medical school. I did not do both at the same time. I served first and am now on my way to becoming a doctor. You're looking for answers, and I am giving them to you. There is absolutely no way you can have both without joining before medical school.

Therefore, the only way for you to serve at the same time or something would be to enlist (not go officer) in the reserves before starting college. This would put you on a 6 year contract. First year would be training mostly, then you'd attend college after a year off. This would take another 2-3 years (since you're already taking dual credit) to graduate, putting you at 3-4 years of time served. You'd then still have 2 years on contract as a reservist in which if you plan for a gap year or have a heart-to-heart with your command, medical school will then be possible without a huge delay, but a delay nonetheless. Becoming a Marine officer with your goals is not possible, and even the way I laid it out for you, you'd be delaying your primary goal.

 

[MusicDOc124]

Let me also ask why become a Marine if you don't intend to do anything with being one?

From how you speak about it, you want to go to boot camp and become a Marine, then go to med school until your contract is up...

If you're looking for physical fitness, you don't need the Marine Corps for that. If you're looking for respect, you don't get any for just completing bootcamp, the respect comes with time served and what you did during that time (i.e. deployments or other things you can do to help in various ways) - the latter you don't have to be a Marine to do.

And to answer your question about doing residency during med school - no. You need to complete medical school to move on to residency.

 

[AnotherLawyer]

You're already two years ahead of your peers graduating high school with an associates degree. If you feel strongly about serving in the military, and I commend you if you do, why not just do a stint in the Marines, get your GI bill, and then wrap up your BS and move on to medical school? That is what I would do.

 

[Stagg737]

Would it be realistic to join after med school?

Can you? Yes. Is it realistic/wise? No. If you went into the marines after med school without going to residency, you'd basically be destroying your chances at going to residency, which would mean no working as a physician for you. You could go after residency, but you'd forget a lot of what you learned before you start practicing. Either way, it's a bad decision.

Couldn't I do at least a portion of my residency during med school?

No. Having a degree from medical school is required in order to begin residency. You cannot start a residency until you graduate. Period.

I'm not in the best shape for boot camp but is it possible to join before college? What changes would I have to make since I've applied for the fall of 2017? I only have hopefully two years of college to go to receive my bachelors.

I believe you could do this. I know a few people that entered the military for a few years before going back to college and you could potentially even get them to help pay for some of college. Plus military service is a huge plus when it comes time to apply for medical school. So if you really want to serve but also want to eventually go to med school, I think serving first and then applying to med school is a solid plan. Other military people can say if they agree or disagree, but if you're going to try and do both but don't want to be a military physician, I think serving either before college or after undergrad but before med school is your best route.

 

[GnothiSeauton]

Everyone else has already covered the important points here, so +1. Also, make sure that if you enlist in the Marine Corps before going to medical school that being in the Marine Corps is as important to you as medicine. What I mean is, do NOT enlist just to pad your resume. Once you pull the trigger on four years as an enlisted Marine it will become your everything, and four years in the Corps can feel a lot longer than it sounds like. It's tough to predict exactly who you'll be at the end of that road--make sure you're going in for the right reasons.

 

[68PGunner]

This is a former enlisted guy who's in medical school right now. My advice for you is not to join the enlisted side period. IF you want some action, you can join after your college degree. Otherwise, you should finish college, take the MCAT, and get a medical school acceptance first. Afterward, if you want to be a Navy doc, you can take the Navy HPSP. Nobody plays with you as a military doc. However, as an enlisted Marine, you will be played by stupid *****s often.

 

[The Buff OP]

Is it possible to be a Marin/Naybi CEAL by day and attend med school for night classes?

 

[68PGunner]

Is it possible to be a Marin/Naybi CEAL by day and attend med school for night classes?

Happen all the times.