Master's in Counseling vs. MSW

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alleycatpsych

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I am preparing to apply to graduate school, and I want to become a therapist, either in private practice, or a hospital/university health center setting. I am unsure whether a counseling psychology/psychology master's program or a master's of social work program would better suit my needs, and which would make me more desirable/competitive in the job market. Do both programs qualify one to practice? Basically, what is the difference between these programs? Also, if anyone knows of some particularly good ones, that info would be appreciated as well. So far, some programs I have looked at are Northwestern University Master's in Counseling Psychology, SUNY at Albany Master's of Mental Health Counseling, Temple University Master's of Counseling Psychology, NYU Master's of Psychology, NYU Master's of Social Work. They all seem to be similar, yet they have different names and are offered by different departments. Please advise!

You ask many questions, and I will try to answer them carefully. First, I'm a psychiatrist (MD), not a psychologist, but I'll try to answer based on what I know based on my objective experience and observations.

At the master's level, there are several basic types of degree training programs:

1) MSW - A social work degree (at the clinical level) focuses on social adjustment in heavily based on sociology, family ecology, and social psychology. An MSW/ASCW or LSW (licensed) has full insurance reimbursement, is highly recognized in private practice, widespread in government and social services, and, in general, recognized as one of the top master's level therapists. An MSW usually has "easier" coursework (insofar as less stats and theory and more hands-on practical coursework), but has more clinical hours to satisfy for license (about 48). MSWs cannot do psychometric testing/assessments.

2) MA - Counseling psychology is a master's degree that prepares one for a limited license as a psychologist or psychological associate in some states. Counseling psych programs are usually housed in the school of education, not social sciences, and therefore, focused on training practitioners who emphasize treatment to remedy maladaptive behaviours. Education and training are large components to counseling psychologists, who, like clinical psychologists, are licensed at the master's level and must be supervised by a fully licensed PHD or MD/DO. Counseling psychologists can do psychometric assessments, but usually, their training focuses on career and educational testing rather than clinical testing. Usually, more coursework than an MSW, but less practical work. Typically, no thesis is required, but a final paper (Plan B) is required in a thesis format.

3) MA - Clinical psych is the same with an emphasis on the clinical and assessment aspect. An MA in clinical psych qualifies for an LLP or Psych Associate license in most states, generally not a full license. They often do counseling and assessment under the supervision of a PhD or MD. They are reimbursed at a level similar to MSWs. Typically, an MA in psych is more difficult to get into than an MA in counseling psych (GRE vs MAT) and often more difficult to get into than MSW (usually no admission test). An MA in psych is less coursework (usually 36-44 credits) with some practical work and usually a thesis or Plan B paper that surpasses MSW papers/research. MA's in clin psych require stats and research at a level that is far superior than most MSW programs. If you're not into math or research, this might be somewhat difficult. An MA in counseling psych is usually not as stats or research heavy, but requires more in this area than an MSW.

4) An MA or MEd in counseling or counselor education is usually based in a school of education and focuses purely on basic maladaptive behavioral modification with very little coursework in dx, tx, or pathology. Counselors (Licensed professional counselors or LPCs) have a more limited scope of practice, I believe, in most states, than LLPs/Psych Associates, and have a limited insurance reimbursement scheme. LPCs are often employed as career counselors and or academic advisors or social services professionals rather than private practice or hospital counselors, but can be hired anywhere psychologists or social workers work. Usually, admissions requirements are less, coursework is comparable to an MSW (about 48 credits), with a minimal practicum and a minor plan B paper/project.

5) MA/MDiv in pastoral counseling. A theological based counseling degree that usually does not qualify the holder for licensure.

If hospital or university setting is your goal, you will need a PhD, EdD, or PsyD in either counseling or clinical psychology with FULL licensure. A master's will usually be seen as inferior. Why hire an MA or MSW when you can hire a PsyD and PhD? There are many out there.

If private practice is your thing, an MSW is your best bet if you don't want a PhD. An MSW does not require a supervisor once you have satisfied your clinical hours and has a full range of insurance reimbursement.

My advice, do the extra work and earn a PhD or PsyD before you commit to an MSW or MA.

My two cents!

Zack
 
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I have also noticed that some programs offer an A.M. degree instead of an MSW degree. For instance, the program at University of Chicago offers the A.M. degree. They say that it is the same thing, but I am not sure. Here is what it says on their website: "A.M. is the Latin abbreviation for a Master of Arts degree. It is equivalent to an M.S.W. degree. It is considered equivalent by the National Association of Social Workers, and SSA has been continuously accredited by the Council on Social Work Education and its predecessors since 1919. You can become a licensed clinical social worker with an A.M. degree." Is this legit? What degrees allow you to practice independently?

MA = AM; AM = MA

Some schools, like UMich, Chicago, and Harvard, award some degrees using the Latin abbreviation; it's a vestige from a bygone era that reeks of elitism. An AB = BA. There is no difference. Interestingly, some degrees are always abbreviated in Latin rather than English. Example: PhD, MD, JD. PhD = Philosophae Doctor (Dr of Phil); MD = Medicinae Doctor (English = Doctor of Medicine); JD = Juris Doctor (English = Doctor of Law). If you spelled out MD in English, it would be DM not MD. JD would be DJ. PhD = DPhil. For some reason, many degrees were kept in the Latin form, whereas other degrees were Anglicized (e.g., Master of Arts, Master of Social Work, Master of Business Admin).

I do not think ANY school of social work grants an MA or MS. Some grant an MSSW rather than an MSW, but those degrees are the same. An MA and an MSW are both master's degrees and are equal in that regard, but they are not the same degree. In some states, an MA in psych, counseling, or counseling psych can qualify for a SW license. Read up on your state's credentials requirement for SW license. Usually, an MSW will NOT qualify for a limited psychology license, however. Some MA's will for a SW license.

If you're interested in SW, earn an MSW, make sure its accredited, and you should be fine.
 
That assessment of degrees is one of the best I've ever seen on this site with regard to leaving the judgment at the door and just offering facts.

I just want to add that my MSW did require a thesis/capstone culminating from 3 mini (individually developed and carried out) research projects including one program evaluation. While I don't talk about it much b/c I'm trying to maintain a bit of anonymity on the net, I did a very specialized degree track with pretty specific goals with the outcome being my MSW degree.

While Federal jobs tend to prefer doctoral level clinicians for the military hospitals in my state... State/university/private hospital jobs for MSW's are pretty common actually... if only in my area. Every hospital in my state has different kinds of spots for LCSW's.

Everything from discharge planning (pretty boring to me but others get off on it) to psychiatric assessment/counseling in ER, reg floors, or fixed on a unit. Neonatal ICU's usually have a few social workers, Hospice has social workers, Nephrology has social workers, and there are just general social workers that handle traditional social work stuff like helping people apply for Medicaid/Medicare/other benefits, respond to claims of abuse... Patient advocates who handle patient reports after incidents involving alleged abuse complaints while in the hospital... etc. Most of those jobs, in fact, REQUIRE an MSW degree and will not hire LPC's or LPA's for the positions... (although, I've seen ads for LPA's on psychiatric units)...

These positions usually do not accept new grads, however, and want an experienced and fully licensed individual. They are sometimes easier to get than "regular" jobs b/c fully licensed people can make more money in private practice than on a salary and have more freedom for their personal lives. Still, private practice can be a pain in the ass... so I'm all about institutional work and that is the crux of my paid professional experience. Agencies are messier...

University jobs here in student counseling centers almost ALWAYS go to fully licensed doctorates... almost always... there is the rare LCSW, LPA, or even LPC in the mix... but I'm telling you it's super rare, I check, on the regular. ha.

As for MSW vs Counseling... I think it's pretty common that you don't see much differences in program structure. All programs pull from the same pot of information: evidence based practice, basic theoretical knowledge, perhaps orientation to a particular style w/vary... and obviously more research w/psych, but it's not like one is outrageously different from the others at the masters level. (with the exception of ABA psych programs and school psych programs)

What makes my MSW suck is the market NOW... the market when I was looking was perfect. I remember reading the bios of all of these MSW/LCSW individuals who worked TEACHING in the psychiatry program @ Chapel Hill... and I was like, awesome, I can have the world with this degree... I can do everything I want to do and not just have license to do these things... but be expected to work in policy, advocacy, clinical environments, teach, and publish... It seemed too good to be true...

Well, you know how that ends, don't you? :) ha

I am going back to Psych but it's just b/c the market and the fit isn't right for me, right now, for social work. It doesn't take away from the accomplishments of those I admire... In this field, I was able to meet, email, chat, etc with the big dogs, the leaders and I was inspired by their continuous efforts to advance the field... I see women with no more degree than their LCSW leading the absolute BEST psychotic/schizophrenia research program in my area (this was one of my passions in grad school)... I mean, there's just so many great things about the MSW and it isn't the degree/fields fault that I wasn't a good fit...

Why go MSW? More reimbursement opportunities, no supervision once you are fully licensed, very well respected among MOST (not all) professionals from MD's to Schools to clergy to whatever.... Teaching opportunities (check out your local med schools' psychiatry departments, guaranteed there are some LCSW's in the mix as lecturers and staff)

More MSW-related options if you want to turn your world on its end and change some stuff up... Just a few more classes, a different license, and you are on your way to an entirely different career path... (NOTE: while there are tons of roads you can take in social work, you can't just up and change without putting in the experience hours, but at least it's good to know that there are options)

Good luck w/your decision!!!
 
thanks for all of your responses! they really helped. and zack, your comment that the AM degree reeks of elitism reflects my thoughts exactly :) i am planning on applying to some phd programs, as i feel that my gpa, research experience, and the like make me pretty competitive. however, in case that doesn't pan out, and since i am a little squirmish about the time commitment a phd program entails, i think i will apply to some MSW's as well. now that i know the MSW degree allows more independence in practicing, i can make a more informed choice about where i apply. thanks again!

in case anyone else is having trouble with the distinctions between these programs, I found this article on the Psychology Today website: http://psychologytoday.com/pto/credentials.html
 
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MA = AM; AM = MA

Some schools, like UMich, Chicago, and Harvard, award some degrees using the Latin abbreviation; it's a vestige from a bygone era that reeks of elitism. An AB = BA. There is no difference. Interestingly, some degrees are always abbreviated in Latin rather than English. Example: PhD, MD, JD. PhD = Philosophae Doctor (Dr of Phil); MD = Medicinae Doctor (English = Doctor of Medicine); JD = Juris Doctor (English = Doctor of Law). If you spelled out MD in English, it would be DM not MD. JD would be DJ. PhD = DPhil. For some reason, many degrees were kept in the Latin form, whereas other degrees were Anglicized (e.g., Master of Arts, Master of Social Work, Master of Business Admin).

I do not think ANY school of social work grants an MA or MS. Some grant an MSSW rather than an MSW, but those degrees are the same. An MA and an MSW are both master's degrees and are equal in that regard, but they are not the same degree. In some states, an MA in psych, counseling, or counseling psych can qualify for a SW license. Read up on your state's credentials requirement for SW license. Usually, an MSW will NOT qualify for a limited psychology license, however. Some MA's will for a SW license.

If you're interested in SW, earn an MSW, make sure its accredited, and you should be fine.

Columbia offers an MS degree in social work, and from what I can see its treated exactly the same as an MSW.

I am curious about your statements regarding MA's makingone available for an SW license like the LCSW. Where have you seen this? My understanding was that SW licensing laws were pretty strict, and that you HAVE to have an MSW (or MSSW or MS in social work as the case may be) in order to be an LCSW. Is this not the case? If so, where?
 
I am curious about your statements regarding MA's makingone available for an SW license like the LCSW. Where have you seen this? My understanding was that SW licensing laws were pretty strict, and that you HAVE to have an MSW (or MSSW or MS in social work as the case may be) in order to be an LCSW. Is this not the case? If so, where?
I think you're referring to the bolded part below?

I do not think ANY school of social work grants an MA or MS. Some grant an MSSW rather than an MSW, but those degrees are the same. An MA and an MSW are both master's degrees and are equal in that regard, but they are not the same degree. In some states, an MA in psych, counseling, or counseling psych can qualify for a SW license. Read up on your state's credentials requirement for SW license. Usually, an MSW will NOT qualify for a limited psychology license, however. Some MA's will for a SW license.

If you're interested in SW, earn an MSW, make sure its accredited, and you should be fine.

If so, then you are correct- at this point, the MSW (or equivalent degree as accredited by the Council on SW Education) is required to get a clinical social work license. Many states, mine included, had "grandfathering" periods at the inception of the social work license during which time people with other backgrounds (RNs, MAs, MEds, others) were able to get the social work license without a MSW and without taking the national test due to having x number of years of qualifying clinical experience. Those grandfathering windows were for about 2 years, and for most states it was in the early- to mid-90s. After that time, everyone has to pass the test, and everyone has to have the degree. Those grandfathered licenses do not qualify for reciprocity in any state outside of where they were issued. Since those licenses were given out 15+ years ago, and required years of prior experience at the time, many of those clinicians are retired or working their way there pretty quickly, so within the next 10-15 years, MSWs will be reclaiming exclusive right to their license.

As a side note, CSWE requires your practicum supervisor to have a MSW, not necessarily a LCSW (or your state's equivalent). Therefore when setting up practica, it would behoove you to check your potential supervisor's degree/license credentials because if it's a grandfathered LCSW.. your hours will not count and will need to be redone.
 
Columbia offers an MS degree in social work, and from what I can see its treated exactly the same as an MSW.

I am curious about your statements regarding MA's makingone available for an SW license like the LCSW. Where have you seen this? My understanding was that SW licensing laws were pretty strict, and that you HAVE to have an MSW (or MSSW or MS in social work as the case may be) in order to be an LCSW. Is this not the case? If so, where?


I'm a psychiatrist in Michigan and when I worked in CMH, I had some master's level co-workers who were given social work registry with an MA (in psych and counseling). In Michigan, there are three levels of SW licensing:

1) LMSW - master's level, full
2) LBSW - bachelor's level, partial
3) RSW - registered SW, partial.

I believe for the RSW, you need a BSW or master's in a related field. The point is, one could be John Doe, MA, RSW, LPC. I'm not sure what this credential actually allows for, but I'm assuming it does not allow for full reimbursement.

Also, I have seen some full licensed SWs with MA degrees in a few states, including Michigan, but I never asked them about their training. I did know they did not possess an MSW, however.

I apologize for speaking in absolutes, but to the best of my knowledge, the MSW or MSSW is the ONLY master's level SW degree. An MS or MA is NOT a SW degree. A DSW is a rare advanced degree above the MSW. If Columbia grants the MS in SW, I would be surprised as it is not recognized as a conventional SW degree.

Think MBA vs. MS in mgt. MBA sounds better and is better recognized. I would imagine any program that granted an MS or MA would not be accredited by whatever body accredits SW programs. If it was, why not grant the conventional MSW?
 
I'm a psychiatrist in Michigan and when I worked in CMH, I had some master's level co-workers who were given social work registry with an MA (in psych and counseling). In Michigan, there are three levels of SW licensing:

1) LMSW - master's level, full
2) LBSW - bachelor's level, partial
3) RSW - registered SW, partial.

I believe for the RSW, you need a BSW or master's in a related field. The point is, one could be John Doe, MA, RSW, LPC. I'm not sure what this credential actually allows for, but I'm assuming it does not allow for full reimbursement.

Also, I have seen some full licensed SWs with MA degrees in a few states, including Michigan, but I never asked them about their training. I did know they did not possess an MSW, however.

I apologize for speaking in absolutes, but to the best of my knowledge, the MSW or MSSW is the ONLY master's level SW degree. An MS or MA is NOT a SW degree. A DSW is a rare advanced degree above the MSW. If Columbia grants the MS in SW, I would be surprised as it is not recognized as a conventional SW degree.

Think MBA vs. MS in mgt. MBA sounds better and is better recognized. I would imagine any program that granted an MS or MA would not be accredited by whatever body accredits SW programs. If it was, why not grant the conventional MSW?

I did not know about those licenses, I've never even heard of them before. From my understanding their is a clarification of licenses and licensure requirements within the NASW right now (I believe NY has made some big changes already, from what I have read) so I'm not sure how long this will continue.

I can assure you that Columbias MS program is treated the same as an MSW. I have spoken with people in the field who are either from Columbia, or know people from Columbia, and I have visited the school and spoken with people their, and they have all vouched for the degree as a legitimate masters degree that is completely accredited with NASW and can lead to an LCSW license (depending on if you pick the clinical track and take the proper courses, which they offer). I would not be considering this program if it wasn't legitimate, and I do my homework :)
 
I did not know about those licenses, I've never even heard of them before. From my understanding their is a clarification of licenses and licensure requirements within the NASW right now (I believe NY has made some big changes already, from what I have read) so I'm not sure how long this will continue.

I can assure you that Columbias MS program is treated the same as an MSW. I have spoken with people in the field who are either from Columbia, or know people from Columbia, and I have visited the school and spoken with people their, and they have all vouched for the degree as a legitimate masters degree that is completely accredited with NASW and can lead to an LCSW license (depending on if you pick the clinical track and take the proper courses, which they offer). I would not be considering this program if it wasn't legitimate, and I do my homework :)


I don't doubt you. In fact, I was looking at the Columbia site myself (http://www.columbia.edu/cu/ssw/admissions/pages/programs_and_curriculum/degree_programs/index.html) and you are indeed correct; it appears to be an MS in SW. Why? Who knows, but it is. Personally, I really think they should call it an MSW like most SW schools do. It could be a relic from an era where advanced SW degrees were MA or MS degrees, much like business degrees were historically MS or MA, not MBA, but as programs evolved, the degree developed into an MBA, which is now the gold standard; this is certainly true for SW where the MSW is the primary professional degree.

As far as SW licensure in Michigan, the SW Practice Act recently changed and a good summary can be found here:

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/mdch/mdch_sw_swpracticechangesduetolicensure_216184_7.pdf

It appears as there might be some "grandfathering" in of non-MSW holders who are now LMSW designates.

Zack
 
acidic, the RSW or equivalent is likely a credentialing for someone with an associates in human services or a similar program. It would not be a clinical licensure and probably has no impact on you.

FYI, the University of Chicago gives a MA in SW rather than the MSW. *shrug* As long as it's accredited by the CSWE, you're good.
 
why not get your master's and then do psy d?
 
why not get your master's and then do psy d?

An MS in counseling and then a Psy.D.....good experience and all, but not much crosses over and it'd be time consuming and $$. People may do it to bring up their GPA and/or gain experience, but that is an even longer road.

I've seen MS's in something more research/stats heavy for those wanting to go for a Ph.D., but they don't have enough research, high enough GPA, and/or want to strengthen their app.
 
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