Match statistics by school question

[redrosesfi]

Is there a website that has match statistics for each school in one document, concerning particularly how many graduates matched and didn't match?

Similar to the website below for osteopathic medical school graduates, which categorizes the number of graduates who matched and those who didn't. Thanks.

https://www.natmatch.com/aoairp/stats/2015sklstats.html

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[Petrichor1]

as far as I know, I usually think matches in general are fairly good for US schools. However, when you want to be iffy with the list and see success rate in specialty, you might just have to look at each individual school's match list from the recent year. This is what I do and I've come to find out a lot of valuable information through that. I generally categorize the list off of primary care vs. specialty which really helps but is no sure indicator of step scores since there will always be the people that go the general path (primary or specialty) and sub-specialize later which is most commonly seen in internal medicine.

 

[Goro]

If you listen to our resident colleagues, match stats need to be taken with a large grain of salt. It's like trying to interpret tea leaves or chicken guts. One typically doesn't know the quality of a program, or if the choice was the student's 1st, 2nd or last. Just don't always be impressed if you see a match to a University hospital. Someone's 1st choice might be at Joe's Clam Bar and ER, and that might be perfectly OK with the graduate. In that case, it's a good residency.

Is there a website that has match statistics for each school in one document, concerning particularly how many graduates matched and didn't match?

Similar to the website below for osteopathic medical school graduates, which categorizes the number of graduates who matched and those who didn't. Thanks.

https://www.natmatch.com/aoairp/stats/2015sklstats.html

 

[dermie1985]

as far as I know, I usually think matches in general are fairly good for US schools. However, when you want to be iffy with the list and see success rate in specialty, you might just have to look at each individual school's match list from the recent year. This is what I do and I've come to find out a lot of valuable information through that. I generally categorize the list off of primary care vs. specialty which really helps but is no sure indicator of step scores since there will always be the people that go the general path (primary or specialty) and sub-specialize later which is most commonly seen in internal medicine.

Match lists are too hard to interpret. They're not valuable. You might see someone matching in specialty X at "Never Heard of that University" in "City I Don't Want to Live In"...but maybe that individual grew up there, had family there, wanted to move back, maybe "Never Heard of that University" is actually a Top 10 specialty X program even though it's not known for other things. On the opposite end.... you'll also see people matching into...say...general surgery or internal medicine at a great program like Penn, Harvard, etc. But...maybe that person wanted to be a plastic surgeon or neurosurgeon (and not a general surgery resident) or a dermatologist (and not medicine resident). The match comes down to a very individual sort of thing in a lot of specialties and it can be difficult to interpret. Slash, just because...say... Harvard and Yale have great match lists...it doesn't mean those same students wouldn't have been as equally successful at another medical institution.

 

[NickNaylor]

At US MD schools, the overwhelming majority of students will match. What you don't see in the "percentage of students that matched" statistic is whether they matched in the field they actually wanted to or not, whether they matched to a program they actually wanted to or not, and whether they matched to a program via the traditional match process vs. the SOAP (a.k.a. "scramble") process. I would argue that those three things are significantly more important than "overall match percentage."

That said, most of these statistics are available on most schools' websites, though I don't know of any resources that combines all of that data into a single, easily viewable resource. Perhaps USNWR?

 

[Petrichor1]

Match lists are too hard to interpret. They're not valuable. You might see someone matching in specialty X at "Never Heard of that University" in "City I Don't Want to Live In"...but maybe that individual grew up there, had family there, wanted to move back, maybe "Never Heard of that University" is actually a Top 10 specialty X program even though it's not known for other things. On the opposite end.... you'll also see people matching into...say...general surgery or internal medicine at a great program like Penn, Harvard, etc. But...maybe that person wanted to be a plastic surgeon or neurosurgeon (and not a general surgery resident) or a dermatologist (and not medicine resident). The match comes down to a very individual sort of thing in a lot of specialties and it can be difficult to interpret. Slash, just because...say... Harvard and Yale have great match lists...it doesn't mean those same students wouldn't have been as equally successful at another medical institution.

that's true, I understand but to use it to have cursory look doesn't hurt. I know that the way I use it gives me a good idea of the school's strength and where its focus is. Apart from that, I usually have had prior experience talking with the admissions at those schools to get a feel of their mission and response to student goals.

 

[Law2Doc]

...but to use it to have cursory look doesn't hurt. I know that the way I use it gives me a good idea of the school's strength and where its focus is...

Um no, it can hurt insofar as it gives you a totally different impression than reality. For instance at a number of med schools the people who don't match are only those shooting for ortho or bust. They will spend a research year and get it next year. Coming up short for something competitive might mean the school is a LOT better than the place where nobody has that option. And how exactly does it tell you the program's scope and focus? It tells you the individual applicants focus but eg a surgeons going to become a surgeon even if his school focuses heavily on family practice. It tells you nothing. Worse it lets you pretend to draw "logical" conclusions equivalent to ancient man watching the sun and moon rise and set and concluding that the earth is what's stationary. When you don't have a frame of reference (ie what the seniors actually want) you are guaranteed to draw wrong harmful conclusions. Matches that look good to you can be low ranked last choices and matches that look bad to you might be someone's dream. How will you ever know? The truth is you want to go to the place where everyone gets their dream residency, not the one that looks better on paper to some premed.

 

[gyngyn]

The best match list we ever had looked fine.
The worst match list we ever had looked even better.

The only person who can read a match list is a student affairs dean at the school in question.

 

[Petrichor1]

Um no, it can hurt insofar as it gives you a totally different impression than reality. For instance at a number of med schools the people who don't match are only those shooting for ortho or bust. They will spend a research year and get it next year. Coming up short for something competitive might mean the school is a LOT better than the place where nobody has that option. And how exactly does it tell you the program's scope and focus? It tells you the individual applicants focus but eg a surgeons going to become a surgeon even if his school focuses heavily on family practice. It tells you nothing. Worse it lets you pretend to draw "logical" conclusions equivalent to ancient man watching the sun and moon rise and set and concluding that the earth is what's stationary. When you don't have a frame of reference (ie what the seniors actually want) you are guaranteed to draw wrong harmful conclusions. Matches that look good to you can be low ranked last choices and matches that look bad to you might be someone's dream. How will you ever know? The truth is you want to go to the place where everyone gets their dream residency, not the one that looks better on paper to some premed.

The goal of each class will differ and your frame of reference will be based off of each individual person. However, when you look at two schools (both well ranked and competitive) that have two different foci you can't help but think where they are strong. I am talking about where school's have the best connections. School A has great national recogition, provides students with dual or research year to prepare for specialized programs. This will inevitably play to the student's strength if that student wants to match higher. When you match that with the school's mission and compare it with the school's list of where students were successfully placed, there is an appreciation for how strong the school focuses on individual student aspirations. Take School B that offers lots of public health mphs and primary care focus and you immediately understand where the school's strong suite is. Use the match list to check how successful it is in fulfilling that mission and you also get a good understanding of just how strong they are. If they are really strong in primary care, you will see many people match in that but the programs they match into will be strong.

I do agree to take it with a grain of salt but aside from admissions people just speak upfront about their program, match stats and school information can be good supplemental tools. I wouldn't say that they are great, but if you are trying to match into competitive residency programs, it doesn't hurt to see in which programs students get placed and how likely they are. To say that match list is completely ridiculous information is not entirely true. It really depends on the navigator that analyzes it.

 

[Law2Doc]

...Use the match list to check how successful it is in fulfilling that mission and you also get a good understanding of just how strong they are....

Again, no.
People have their own motivations as to where and why they try to match in certain places. I know of no senior who gives a crap about a schools mission. And a school where lots of people go into X might be quite good at Y-- you are completely discounting the fact that people make choices for reasons you don't have a frame of reference for. For example at most med schools the top graduate goes into IM or surgery, not derm. Doesn't mean they couldn't get derm, just means that when they can do anything they opted for something else. Don't pretend this has anything to do with a schools focus or mission. Sorry but you are seeing what you want to see -- not the truth. For you the sun is revolving around the earth because from your frame of reference that's what it looks like.

 

[gyngyn]

I wouldn't say that they are great, but if you are trying to match into competitive residency programs, it doesn't hurt to see in which programs students get placed and how likely they are. To say that match list is completely ridiculous information is not entirely true. It really depends on the navigator that analyzes it.

The problem here lies in the fact that the residencies widely recognized as the best are not known to those outside the field.
Many surgical residencies affiliated with big famous schools are known to have barely acceptable training.
Seeing "Big Famous University" may look good to an outsider, while those who know better are impressed with an entirely different program.

 

[Petrichor1]

The problem here lies in the fact that the residencies widely recognized as the best are not known to those outside the field.
Many surgical residencies affiliated with big famous schools are known to have barely acceptable training.
Seeing "Big Famous University" may look good to an outsider, while those who know better are impressed with an entirely different program.

agreed on that, there are plenty that have big name and lack a lot of good instruction and research. You go up to these programs and they are experiencing funding problems and issues such as merging with new sections to compensate for their deficiencies.

 

[Petrichor1]

Again, no.
People have their own motivations as to where and why they try to match in certain places. I know of no senior who gives a crap about a schools mission. And a school where lots of people go into X might be quite good at Y-- you are completely discounting the fact that people make choices for reasons you don't have a frame of reference for. For example at most med schools the top graduate goes into IM or surgery, not derm. Doesn't mean they couldn't get derm, just means that when they can do anything they opted for something else. Don't pretend this has anything to do with a schools focus or mission. Sorry but you are seeing what you want to see -- not the truth. For you the sun is revolving around the earth because from your frame of reference that's what it looks like.

then I might say, you have found one person who does care about the school's mission 🙂

 

[Law2Doc]

then I might say, you have found one person who does care about the school's mission 🙂

Ok, you are the outlier. Good luck with that. You can agree with the schools mission. but honestly if you let it dictate your life choices that's kind of lame.

 

[Petrichor1]

Ok, you are the outlier. Good luck with that. You can agree with the schools mission. but honestly if you let it dictate your life choices that's kind of lame.

hmm that is interesting, I think you are taking my words out of context. I am not going to let a school decide my fate. I clearly want to say that know the school's mission, I want to play to whatever advantages it could give me. If that is lame, then yes, I am lame.

 

[Law2Doc]

hmm that is interesting, I think you are taking my words out of context. I am not going to let a school decide my fate. I clearly want to say that know the school's mission, I want to play to whatever advantages it could give me. If that is lame, then yes, I am lame.

I guess I'm misunderstanding you. I'm saying a schools mission is irrelevant to its graduates life choices, and one won't tell you the other or validate the other. Which is why reading a match list out of context of actually knowing the people involved is going to necessarilly send you off on a whole host of wrong conclusions because they are of necessity based on flawed assumptions.

 

[medumacation]

Match lists are useless. I liked looking at them when I applied to medical school, I liked showing off our match list when I was student interviewer. But in the end, it matters much more what YOU do in medical school, and how HAPPY you are in medical school. The more energetic, smart and happy you are, the more success you are in following through with the goals that are going to allow to match where you want.

That being said, here's some solid truth: in small specialties it is really nice to attend a larger school that is affiliated with a residency program in that specialty. I know of a couple cases where our school's derm or plastic guys were crucial for recommendations to get good applicants in front of dream programs and they would accept a LOT of our graduates.

 

[Petrichor1]

I guess I'm misunderstanding you. I'm saying a schools mission is irrelevant to its graduates life choices, and one won't tell you the other or validate the other. Which is why reading a match list out of context of actually knowing the people involved is going to necessarilly send you off on a whole host of wrong conclusions because they are of necessity based on flawed assumptions.

I guess I understand from your view about it. I think I can only truly believe one medical school's match list because I have been talking with the students there and I guess it has given me something of substance to talk about. That in it of itself should not be a guaranteed assessment and certainly cannot be expanded as strongly intuitively to other schools based off of so many uncontrolled factors.

 

[hoihaie]

The problem here lies in the fact that the residencies widely recognized as the best are not known to those outside the field.
Many surgical residencies affiliated with big famous schools are known to have barely acceptable training.
Seeing "Big Famous University" may look good to an outsider, while those who know better are impressed with an entirely different program.

how do you know what's what when residency apps comes around then? is your school's faculty the best source?

 

[Law2Doc]

how do you know what's what when residency apps comes around then? is your school's faculty the best source?

Yeah, once you pick a field , you'll want to find a mentor or two and pick their brains. A lot of it is word of mouth. Prior residents at various programs are good resources too although they may have loyalty incentive to help market their own program. If you just go by undergrad name you'll likely not end up at a great place for the specialty or can even end up at a place that's outright malignant.

 

[22031 Alum]

how do you know what's what when residency apps comes around then? is your school's faculty the best source?

Medicine is a smaller world than anybody not yet out in it can understand. Academic medicine, even smaller. Academic medicine in each specialty, smaller still. I know about goings-on at programs I've never seen, thousands of miles away, because someone I trained with is there now, or someone I work with now trained there and keeps in touch...

 

[Law2Doc]

Medicine is a smaller world than anybody not yet out in it can understand. Academic medicine, even smaller. Academic medicine in each specialty, smaller still. I know about goings-on at programs I've never seen, thousands of miles away, because someone I trained with is there now, or someone I work with now trained there and keeps in touch...

Yep. Also places can have upward and downward trajectories based on gaining or losing key attendings and chairs. The place that was great last year might be on the way down because two big named guys moved to the next state. Attendings in the field hear about this or can find out. It's hard to know about otherwise.

 

[gyngyn]

how do you know what's what when residency apps comes around then? is your school's faculty the best source?

We have faculty insiders in each specialty trained to guide them.