Match Violation?

[BlowJoe]

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So I just received correspondance from the PD at my home institution wanting to know about my interview experiences, my thoughts on the best program for me, and how my home program rates compared to other programs. Is this a Match Violation? How should I handle this?

 

[MedObsession]

So I just received correspondance from the PD at my home institution wanting to know about my interview experiences, my thoughts on the best program for me, and how my home program rates compared to other programs. Is this a Match Violation? How should I handle this?

I had this same scenario happen to me! My chair invited me to meet with him to discuss the interview trail. When we started the meeting he prefaced the discussion saying that it was confidential and he takes no notes, so as not to remember details about which programs I specifically liked more or less than my home program. Next thing you know, he gets into "what are people saying about our program on the interview trail." I felt like I was now some inside investigator! To make it worse... halfway through our discussion the PD from our program joins us and he tells my #1, which isn't my home program!! So much for "confidential" huh? Then ANOTHER faculty member is invited in at the tail end of our meeting.

I definitely felt set up. They all stated that I was a strong enough applicant that them knowing where I rank them won't affect how they rank me... but I'm not convinced at all. I felt in some ways it may have been a violation, but I'm not going to do anything about it because they also offered to call people they know at my #1.

Basically, that long story is because I want you to learn from my example (i.e. mistake)! Maybe you should set the meeting up after February 25, so what you say can't be held against you for ranking.

 

[Winged Scapula]

I agree that while it probably isn't technically a match violation (as the invitation stands now), it could be construed as pressuring you to reveal information you'd rather not (this is assuming you are applying for allopathic residencies; osteopathic residencies have different rules for the match) which IS a match violation. They are treading a very fine line.

The suggestion above to delay the meeting until after Feb 25 is a good one. I'd tell the Chair you are still sorting through your interviews and your thoughts about them and would prefer to have a few more weeks to think about things before meeting with them. If their interests are pure (ie, not using the information you provide to do their ROL), then this should be fine.

 

[Samoa]

This kind of cr@p makes me so glad I'm an independent applicant. Although the flip side is that there's no one to make calls for me.

But back when I was in med school, my home program never asked me where I was interested in going.

Their motive could be entirely benign: they may be trying to find out what appeals to applicants like you, so that they can make changes and market the program better in subsequent years, to recruit the kind of applicants they want. But it seems to me that if it were, this meeting would be more appropriately scheduled AFTER rank lists are due.

 

[Law2Doc]

...

Their motive could be entirely benign: they may be trying to find out what appeals to applicants like you, so that they can make changes and market the program better in subsequent years, to recruit the kind of applicants they want. But it seems to me that if it were, this meeting would be more appropriately scheduled AFTER rank lists are due.

Yeah, the timing makes it pretty inconceivable that this was benign. They are trying to press the OP for information they are not entitled to ask about. If they didn't violate the rules, they came awfully close. Smart programs don't do this. Those that do probably shouldn't be too high on your list because it only takes one student to report this and the whole program can get investigated and/or on probation.

 

[Miami_med]

I think that permutations of this are very common

 

[DarthNeurology]

I had this same scenario happen to me! My chair invited me to meet with him to discuss the interview trail. When we started the meeting he prefaced the discussion saying that it was confidential and he takes no notes, so as not to remember details about which programs I specifically liked more or less than my home program. Next thing you know, he gets into "what are people saying about our program on the interview trail." I felt like I was now some inside investigator! To make it worse... halfway through our discussion the PD from our program joins us and he tells my #1, which isn't my home program!! So much for "confidential" huh? Then ANOTHER faculty member is invited in at the tail end of our meeting.

I definitely felt set up. They all stated that I was a strong enough applicant that them knowing where I rank them won't affect how they rank me... but I'm not convinced at all. I felt in some ways it may have been a violation, but I'm not going to do anything about it because they also offered to call people they know at my #1.

Basically, that long story is because I want you to learn from my example (i.e. mistake)! Maybe you should set the meeting up after February 25, so what you say can't be held against you for ranking.

I don't think that face time with a chairperson or program director during residency application is a bad thing, and is actually a good thing. I think the PD/chairman really did want to know about how their program looked compared to others on the trail. I wouldn't mention everything wrong with your home institution's program, but mention its pluses mostly and a couple of well known negatives that you heard on the trail.

They probably wanted you to be happpy to give information to your home institution about what they could do to get more applicants/look more attractive for residency.

Honestly if it was me and then I was asked about what my top choice was I would make generally vague comments about what programs I liked the best, what I liked about the home institution's program. The rank lists are not due for a while, so who know's?, you might change your mind about what is your number one after a second look. No need to give out "numbers". If asked what my number one is I would just laugh and say that I am still pondering how to construct my rank list and ask for pointers about what I should consider.

You shouldn't trust anyone to have your interests/rights at heart and never assume anything is confidential in medicine. Doubtlessly if you say that you won't rank your home program highly to the chairman and want to go somewhere else because of x,y and z, then they might try to change x,y and z and probably wouldn't rank you even though it is "confidential." What does that mean anyway? Confidential to him, the faculty or the program?

You should realize that the whole "Don't worry its confidential I won't write it down . . . " was a ploy to get you to reveal something you wouldn't otherwise have.

It is nice that the chair offered to call up people he knew at your number 1, he must have realized that you felt fairly certain you wanted to go there and felt comfortable telling him. Such calls can supposedly help a great deal, maybe he was trying to do you a favor if you are a really excellent student.

I don't think this meeting was premeditated, maybe poorly though out as the chair wanted to know what was going on and people in power rarely hear the bad news or the word on the street. . .

 

[Law2Doc]

I don't think that face time with a chairperson or program director during residency application is a bad thing, and is actually a good thing. I think the PD/chairman really did want to know about how their program looked compared to others on the trail. ...

They probably wanted you to be happy to give information to your home institution about what they could do to get more applicants/look more attractive for residency.
...
I don't think this meeting was premeditated, maybe poorly though out as the chair wanted to know what was going on and people in power rarely hear the bad news or the word on the street. . .

As Samoa pointed out there is absolutely no reason why they would do this meeting prior to March 19 if it was truly on the up an up. They don't need to know what the institution could do better DURING the ranking period. We are at the point where people and programs are doing their rank order lists, and interviews are largely over, so there isn't much the program is going to change for this year. So late March is a fine time to have these meetings if they simply wanted to improve things and gauge how they presented themselves as compared to their peers. Since they didn't wait until an appropriate time, you have to view their actions skeptically, assume it was, in fact "premeditated" and goal oriented, and absolutely not benign.

 

[Nflow]

This kind of cr@p makes me so glad I'm an independent applicant. Although the flip side is that there's no one to make calls for me.

But back when I was in med school, my home program never asked me where I was interested in going.

Their motive could be entirely benign: they may be trying to find out what appeals to applicants like you, so that they can make changes and market the program better in subsequent years, to recruit the kind of applicants they want. But it seems to me that if it were, this meeting would be more appropriately scheduled AFTER rank lists are due.

What exactly is an independent applicant, as a US grad, are you allowed to prematch this year, since you are no longer in medical school?

 

[Winged Scapula]

What exactly is an independent applicant, as a US grad, are you allowed to prematch this year, since you are no longer in medical school?

An Independent Applicant = IMG/FMG, Physician (ie, not a 4th year medical student), and DO students.

They ARE eligible for pre-matches (but many programs do not offer them).

 

[BlowJoe]

So I just received correspondance from the PD at my home institution wanting to know about my interview experiences, my thoughts on the best program for me, and how my home program rates compared to other programs. Is this a Match Violation? How should I handle this?

By the way, the email is entitled "Match". Not sure what to think about this. However if I don't respond or meet with her, I feel like I will loose a spot and not be ranked highly. And I guess if she doesn't blantantly ask me how I will rank them, it is technically not a match violation; however asking "how my home program rates compared to other programs" will reveal the way I may rank my programs (unless I LIE). Not sure what I should do, since honestly I really don't trust the PD and I don't think she is really concerned about what I feel is the best program for me.

 

[BlowJoe]

I had this same scenario happen to me! My chair invited me to meet with him to discuss the interview trail. When we started the meeting he prefaced the discussion saying that it was confidential and he takes no notes, so as not to remember details about which programs I specifically liked more or less than my home program. Next thing you know, he gets into "what are people saying about our program on the interview trail." I felt like I was now some inside investigator! To make it worse... halfway through our discussion the PD from our program joins us and he tells my #1, which isn't my home program!! So much for "confidential" huh? Then ANOTHER faculty member is invited in at the tail end of our meeting.

I definitely felt set up. They all stated that I was a strong enough applicant that them knowing where I rank them won't affect how they rank me... but I'm not convinced at all. I felt in some ways it may have been a violation, but I'm not going to do anything about it because they also offered to call people they know at my #1.

Basically, that long story is because I want you to learn from my example (i.e. mistake)! Maybe you should set the meeting up after February 25, so what you say can't be held against you for ranking.

#1 Do you think that what you said affected the way your home program may rank you?

#2 Do you honestly think that it would have been best to wait until after Feb. 25th (meaning that if you had waited, the way they rank you would have not been affected and you waiting till after Feb 25th would not have dropped you lower on their list?)

#3 Also did you ever express to your home institution (after the interview) that you were interested in staying?

Thanks for sharing your experience.

 

[MedObsession]

#1 Do you think that what you said affected the way your home program may rank you?

#2 Do you honestly think that it would have been best to wait until after Feb. 25th (meaning that if you had waited, the way they rank you would have not been affected and you waiting till after Feb 25th would not have dropped you lower on their list?)

#3 Also did you ever express to your home institution (after the interview) that you were interested in staying?

Thanks for sharing your experience.

No problem! Here's my response to your questions:
1. I don't think that it will significantly hurt me. Perhaps I am naive, but they stated that they really aren't changing their list based on what I said (and this was reiterated in a f/u email the PD sent me). They stated that they would really like to see me at their program and will be ranking me high (no specifics), but at the same time, they are there to be sure that I acheive my career goals... hence offering to call my #1. They are the ones that suggested I contact more than my #1 if I am interested, since getting my #1 isn't guaranteed, so I should be safe and talk to the next few on my list. In the end, I'll never really know if it changed things, but I like to believe it didn't hurt me to help me sleep at night .

2. I don't think they would have ranked me lower if I waited until after February 25. Of course, they wouldn't have been able to offer their help with ranking strategies to me without the meeting. So if I get my #1 it'll all seem worth it! That was the trade off. If I don't get my #1 or my home institution, I'll have to wonder if I should've scheduled it later... I guess it may depend on how highly you are considering your home program.

3. I did follow up with them with an email of interest, as they are in my top 3. I had a very positive response from them. It was great to communicate with them again and I felt they had my best interest at heart.

Good luck to you... keep us posted if you do end up meeting with your PD!