Matching Gen Surg

[Dunkthetall]

TL;DR: What kind of board scores/pubs do I need for a top 10 gen surg program (home institution)?

Edit: no AOA at my institution, it’s pure P/F all four years.

Background:
M1 at T10
Research-Low author on two abstracts from last year from a research position before med school. Will be a low author on a manuscript later this year from the same lab. None of it is surgery related. Currently in an ortho oncology lab, hopefully it's productive.
EC-Lots of work and leadership experience.

I went to school considering ortho, and I've enjoyed shadowing, the people, vibe, etc. However, as my studies progress I find that I'm particularly interested in neoplasia and GI (a lot more than MSK right now). Still open to ortho, but I'm heavily leaning toward general surgery, and perhaps surgical oncology or colorectal for fellowship. I'm also geographically limited by my partner who is in school, so my home institution and a low/mid level school nearby would be my targets for residency. How hard is it to match in t10 gen surg residencies in terms of test scores and pubs, especially if most of my med school research ends up being in ortho? Prestige isn't my main concern, but my home institution is amazing from what I've seen and heard, and the other institution has a reputation for malignancy/miserable residents.

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[AhhThnacks]

This appears to be a lack of understanding. Let me ask you a question, if you are at a T10 school, what type of MCAT/research/LOR/EC/etc. did it take to get in? If there answer is high scores and a lot of extra stuff, then why would you assume that a T10 GS program would have different standards?

 

[Dunkthetall]

This appears to be a lack of understanding. Let me ask you a question, if you are at a T10 school, what type of MCAT/research/LOR/EC/etc. did it take to get in? If there answer is high scores and a lot of extra stuff, then why would you assume that a T10 GS program would have different standards?

But isn’t there nuance to residency due to different specialties? My question has to do with the difference between an extremely competitive speciality overall like ortho vs a (moderate?) competitive speciality at a top residency.

I mean I aim to be a top applicant regardless, but just looking at research, medical school didn’t care all that much about my field. Ortho seems to want ortho specific research regardless of where I apply. I’ve been told any research is fine if I just want to match gen surg, but will a t10 residency want research in a gen surg field? That influences whether or not I bail on ortho research ASAP or just continue while making connections in the gen surg department.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

Top 10 surgery programs are just as difficult if not more than just matching at any program in the most competitive specialties

 

[Dunkthetall]

Top 10 surgery programs are just as difficult if not more than just matching at any program in the most competitive specialties

Hmmm seems I might have to pull out of ortho as early as possible. Thanks for the response!

 

[SweetBurger]

u go to a T10, take a look at the match list of every t10 school and see if any of those programs match someone in gen surg to a program below t10.
Sincerely,
ur fine

 

[Dunkthetall]

u go to a T10, take a look at the match list of every t10 school and see if any of those programs match someone in gen surg to a program below t10.
Sincerely,
ur fine

It’s kind of hard to interpret. My school has done great from the last few matches I’ve seen, but they’ve also had some people match mid-tier schools in gen surg. I don’t know if it’s due to location or because those schools had prestigious fellowships.

I’m fine with matching mid-tier in general, I’m just very wary of my other option if I don’t match at my home institution.

 

[operaman]

To match your home program you need to be a star student that everyone likes and wants to train. This is a combo of research and strong academics and just how much people like you in general. You’ll need strong scores but home students get more leeway on numbers since everyone knows you well already.

As for landing another T10 program, it’s similar but your numbers may matter a little more. That said, strong letters from your faculty will carry a lot of weight too. It’s probably the main reason that students from top schools match so well - the connections and letters and phone calls make a huge difference.

 

[Dunkthetall]

To match your home program you need to be a star student that everyone likes and wants to train. This is a combo of research and strong academics and just how much people like you in general. You’ll need strong scores but home students get more leeway on numbers since everyone knows you well already.

As for landing another T10 program, it’s similar but your numbers may matter a little more. That said, strong letters from your faculty will carry a lot of weight too. It’s probably the main reason that students from top schools match so well - the connections and letters and phone calls make a huge difference.

Thank you! This is a subjective question but as a surgeon I’d appreciate your viewpoint.

If a program is known for malignancy/toxicity/lack of support, would it be worth a potential research year (assuming great scores) to hedge my bets in getting into my home program? I’m thinking of the sacrifice of a year of attending salary (especially as a non-trad) and potentially more loans if I do so. Or is surgical residency so difficult that malignancy won’t matter all that much?

 

[operaman]

Zzzzzz

Thank you! This is a subjective question but as a surgeon I’d appreciate your viewpoint.

If a program is known for malignancy/toxicity/lack of support, would it be worth a potential research year (assuming great scores) to hedge my bets in getting into my home program? I’m thinking of the sacrifice of a year of attending salary (especially as a non-trad) and potentially more loans if I do so. Or is surgical residency so difficult that malignancy won’t matter all that much?

I take all the malignancy rumors with a huge grain of salt. I remember being on rotations in Med school and residency that other people at my level described as toxic or abusive or malignant, but I had a great time. You really need specifics.

Is it worth a research year to get into your home program? Hard no. You have 4 potential research years with them during med school, so use those.

If you mean a research year elsewhere, it’s a maybe. I’d wait until you see how your app looks. If your research is weak then yes. But you’re at a T10 so there’s nothing stopping you from having a killer CV without taking a year. And remember that getting to know people cuts both ways; they may not like you and the time works against you. Easy to rub someone the wrong way over the course of a year.

 

[Dunkthetall]

Zzzzzz

I take all the malignancy rumors with a huge grain of salt. I remember being on rotations in Med school and residency that other people at my level described as toxic or abusive or malignant, but I had a great time. You really need specifics.

Is it worth a research year to get into your home program? Hard no. You have 4 potential research years with them during med school, so use those.

If you mean a research year elsewhere, it’s a maybe. I’d wait until you see how your app looks. If your research is weak then yes. But you’re at a T10 so there’s nothing stopping you from having a killer CV without taking a year. And remember that getting to know people cuts both ways; they may not like you and the time works against you. Easy to rub someone the wrong way over the course of a year.

Thank you!

 

[Naruhodo]

Also, remember you have a home field advantage. You can start getting to know the surgeons (including program director) and interns/residents at your home program during M3. Not only will this give you a better sense of if it's the right fit for you, but they will be getting a sense if you're a good fit for them. I definitely rolled my eyes at it a bit in med school, but those med students who declared their love for surgery early on definitely got preferable treatment in the OR and often they were treating someone like the were a colleague even before the match. If you love your school/program, there's a good chance they are fond of you too.

 

[LucidSplash]

Thank you! This is a subjective question but as a surgeon I’d appreciate your viewpoint.

If a program is known for malignancy/toxicity/lack of support, would it be worth a potential research year (assuming great scores) to hedge my bets in getting into my home program? I’m thinking of the sacrifice of a year of attending salary (especially as a non-trad) and potentially more loans if I do so. Or is surgical residency so difficult that malignancy won’t matter all that much?

I encourage you to ask people to define malignancy. I have trained in both “malignant” and “non-malignant” surgery programs. There is no perfect program and there is a sliding scale between malignant and non-malignant. You need to determine if the things that others call malignant are what you would also define as malignant. For many peds or medicine residents, surgery resident schedules in and of themselves would considered malignant. Working long hours did not bother me. But how people spoke to me, whether they treated me as a person or a widget, their approach to teaching, made all the difference between the two extremes.

Malignancy DOES matter IMHO. But you need to think hard about what that really means to you.

I personally would not willingly go to a malignant environment in most situations. If I had NO other option between a malignant program and getting trained in that specialty, I would probably go back given the knowledge it was a finite period of time. But I would explore all other avenues first.

 

[Lem0nz]

Your thread reads like you’ve already limited your rank list to two places. Just as another view point, that is not a thing and not how the match works. No one has brought this up but I would strongly involve your SO in the conversation. What do they do? How long are they going to be in school? What will they be able to do once they graduate?

You will be a ghost to your SO in the first couple years of surgical residency literally anywhere. And there’s a strong chance you don’t end up practicing where residency occurs. A VERY strong chance you’ll move for fellowship for surg onc and still likely to move for CRS.

IMO you are approaching this incredibly wrong. There’s nothing wrong with ranking your home institution 1 and going for it hard but if you’re competitive for it you should have 15 other amazing residency interviews lined up for 2-15 on your match list and not the ‘****ty other malignant program’ as #2. You are handicapping your career and presumably the major income potential of your relationship with your SO for a transient time of your life.

 

[CJhooper123]

OP - enjoy medical school and continue to explore your interests. Work hard during your preclinical years and take advantage of research opportunities that interest you. If you're interested in GS, find mentors and shadow/scrub, time permitting. As an M1, I encourage you to keep an open mind. So many people love surgery until they actually rotate on it. There's something a little different about waking up at 4am and leaving late that sounds easier than doing . I switched specialties like 3 times in the course of med school. There's a lot of solid advice above, but I'd encourage you to explore. Top 10 programs are amazing, but just know there are pros/cons to everything (e.g. malignancy, operative autonomy, networking, etc). Good luck!

 

[Dunkthetall]

I encourage you to ask people to define malignancy. I have trained in both “malignant” and “non-malignant” surgery programs. There is no perfect program and there is a sliding scale between malignant and non-malignant. You need to determine if the things that others call malignant are what you would also define as malignant. For many peds or medicine residents, surgery resident schedules in and of themselves would considered malignant. Working long hours did not bother me. But how people spoke to me, whether they treated me as a person or a widget, their approach to teaching, made all the difference between the two extremes.

Malignancy DOES matter IMHO. But you need to think hard about what that really means to you.

I personally would not willingly go to a malignant environment in most situations. If I had NO other option between a malignant program and getting trained in that specialty, I would probably go back given the knowledge it was a finite period of time. But I would explore all other avenues first.

Sorry, I’m sort of vague to preserve anonymity, but I’ve heard of of sexism, racism, and faculty that don’t care much about teaching. I’m skeptical, especially because they’re online sources, but I can’t help but raise an eyebrow. These comments have popped up frequently, and my school’s residency doesn’t have that issue nor any other residency program in the state. Plus they were apparently under investigation by the ACGME recently. They’re still accredited but it’s worrisome.

Worsts-case scenario the comments are true: I’ve been in circumstances where my bosses have said insensitive things trying to make a point or be funny (like slurs for my ethnic group), I didn’t particularly care; I even forgot about it until it was brought up another next day. But in residency I wonder if I’d still shrug off comments like that because I’m so stressed/overworked or would they bother me more since because of that. So I value hearing the opinions of people that have actually gone through residency and possible malignancy.

 

[Dunkthetall]

Your thread reads like you’ve already limited your rank list to two places. Just as another view point, that is not a thing and not how the match works. No one has brought this up but I would strongly involve your SO in the conversation. What do they do? How long are they going to be in school? What will they be able to do once they graduate?

You will be a ghost to your SO in the first couple years of surgical residency literally anywhere. And there’s a strong chance you don’t end up practicing where residency occurs. A VERY strong chance you’ll move for fellowship for surg onc and still likely to move for CRS.

IMO you are approaching this incredibly wrong. There’s nothing wrong with ranking your home institution 1 and going for it hard but if you’re competitive for it you should have 15 other amazing residency interviews lined up for 2-15 on your match list and not the ‘****ty other malignant program’ as #2. You are handicapping your career and presumably the major income potential of your relationship with your SO for a transient time of your life.

We’ve talked about it, and they support whatever I do. They’d be in school until the first years of my residency, then it wouldn’t be hard to go wherever I am.

I’m definitely applying broadly, but I just worry about spending years apart in another state, especially if kids are involved. I know a surgeon that did a fellowship across the nation from his wife/kids, and while it was just a year, it seemed rough haha.

 

[LucidSplash]

Sorry, I’m sort of vague to preserve anonymity, but I’ve heard of of sexism, racism, and faculty that don’t care much about teaching. I’m skeptical, especially because they’re online sources, but I can’t help but raise an eyebrow. These comments have popped up frequently, and my school’s residency doesn’t have that issue nor any other residency program in the state. Plus they were apparently under investigation by the ACGME recently. They’re still accredited but it’s worrisome.

Worsts-case scenario the comments are true: I’ve been in circumstances where my bosses have said insensitive things trying to make a point or be funny (like slurs for my ethnic group), I didn’t particularly care; I even forgot about it until it was brought up another next day. But in residency I wonder if I’d still shrug off comments like that because I’m so stressed/overworked or would they bother me more since because of that. So I value hearing the opinions of people that have actually gone through residency and possible malignancy.

Where there is smoke, there is usually fire.

If the same types of comments are popping up online frequently, about a specific program, from different sources, I think it would be incredibly foolish to dismiss them. I have a healthy amount of skepticism about “things posted on the internet” but if most of the Amazon reviews for a product are bad and there are a couple that say “no it’s great,” I’m going to look at a different product.

 

[Detailfanatic]

just matched this past cycle into GS and was lucky to interview at many of the top places. I will concur with everyone that interviewing/matching at the top places in GS requires the same quality of app as the other more competitive surgical subspecialties. Not only that, with interview hoarding it's getting more and more competitive every year. From what I saw on the interview trail, the vast majority of us had roughly 2-5 pubs with outliers having less and the MD/PHD folks having tons. If you look at data on Texas star and the like, or from word of mouth, most ppl seems to have step 2 scores in the 260s (although im sure 250s you could likely make it work with otherwise strong application). also, maybe im blanking but not many cities where there's two top 10 programs so you may be referring to the Brigham and MGH. Even if not, my point will stand that those types of institutions take many home students so there can be significant competition because since they're great, many ppl want to stay.

I'll also add that it's better to just approach the process as setting yourself up with the best app possible so that you have the flexibility to prioritize what's important to you when the time comes. I interviewed at the aforementioned programs and the like and still chose my home program because its home, family is here, and I felt it was a better fit and I could not be happier. I worked hard during med school to have that flexibility, not to end up a specific place that I dreamed about early on in med school

 

[Dunkthetall]

just matched this past cycle into GS and was lucky to interview at many of the top places. I will concur with everyone that interviewing/matching at the top places in GS requires the same quality of app as the other more competitive surgical subspecialties. Not only that, with interview hoarding it's getting more and more competitive every year. From what I saw on the interview trail, the vast majority of us had roughly 2-5 pubs with outliers having less and the MD/PHD folks having tons. If you look at data on Texas star and the like, or from word of mouth, most ppl seems to have step 2 scores in the 260s (although im sure 250s you could likely make it work with otherwise strong application). also, maybe im blanking but not many cities where there's two top 10 programs so you may be referring to the Brigham and MGH. Even if not, my point will stand that those types of institutions take many home students so there can be significant competition because since they're great, many ppl want to stay.

I'll also add that it's better to just approach the process as setting yourself up with the best app possible so that you have the flexibility to prioritize what's important to you when the time comes. I interviewed at the aforementioned programs and the like and still chose my home program because its home, family is here, and I felt it was a better fit and I could not be happier. I worked hard during med school to have that flexibility, not to end up a specific place that I dreamed about early on in med school

This is extremely helpful, thank you so much!! And congrats on matching!!