Matching ivy FM or IM as a DO?

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Deecee2DO

Deecee2DO

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I hope this is the correct forum to ask this, if not please redirect me to the right one, but my question is this : Is it realistic to try to match IM or FM at an IVY coming from a DO school if you have very competitive step scores, 3rd/4th yr grades, LORs, research etc?
 
Mona nucleosis said:
Things we may have a shot at in Ivy instituions:
-all FMs
-all primary care track IMs
-affiliated satellite site IMs
-Maybeeeee Dartmouth/Brown IM due to the location

Things we should not count on:
-Any top 20 IM
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Basically.

Pretty much any top-20 FM program is open to DOs, and Penn, Columbia, Brown and Dartmouth all have DOs in their FM programs. Remember though, that Ivy doesn't necessarily equal good for FM.

As for IM, save for Dartmouth you really don't have a shot at any Ivy for IM as a DO. Realistically, you don't have much of a shot at most top-20 IM programs as a DO, although Cleveland Clinic and Mayo-Rochester have taken DOs in the past (they're largely the exception to the rule, however).
 
Lexdiamondz said:
Basically.

Pretty much any top-20 FM program is open to DOs, and Penn, Columbia, Brown and Dartmouth all have DOs in their FM programs. Remember though, that Ivy doesn't necessarily equal good for FM.

As for IM, save for Dartmouth you really don't have a shot at any Ivy for IM as a DO. Realistically, you don't have much of a shot at most top-20 IM programs as a DO, although Cleveland Clinic and Mayo-Rochester have taken DOs in the past (they're largely the exception to the rule, however).
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Dartmouth has FM? I didn't see that. Also, what is the different between HospUPenn and Pennsylvania hospital? Because I saw DOs in the Penn hospital but not UPenn hosp
 
Deecee2DO said:
Dartmouth has FM? I didn't see that. Also, what is the different between HospUPenn and Pennsylvania hospital? Because I saw DOs in the Penn hospital but not UPenn hosp
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The University Hospital of Pennsylvania is Penn's main academic medical centre. Pennsylvania Hospital and Penn-Presbyterian hospital are both affiliates, but aren't generally staffed by the same faculty and are more community-oriented rather than academic.

As for Dartmouth, they do have an FM program but it's at Concord rather than Hitchcock and yes, they take DOs.
 
Lexdiamondz said:
The University Hospital of Pennsylvania is Penn's main academic medical centre. Pennsylvania Hospital and Penn-Presbyterian hospital are both affiliates, but aren't generally staffed by the same faculty and are more community-oriented rather than academic.

As for Dartmouth, they do have an FM program but it's at Concord rather than Hitchcock and yes, they take DOs.
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Ok great, thanks for clearing that up. Makes more sense now
 
Mona nucleosis said:
Things we may have a shot at in Ivy instituions:
-all FMs
-all primary care track IMs
-affiliated satellite site IMs
-Maybeeeee Dartmouth/Brown IM due to the location

Things we should not count on:
-Any top 20 IM
Click to expand...
This is accurate and I've heard you have to rotate at Dartmouth to match there. I had applied categorical IM and was ghosted from multiple top 20 programs and Dartmouth/Brown.
 
Ivy doesn't mean anything in medicine.
18buy3.jpg
 
It's also really going to come down to what your board scores are- 245+ and rotate at Dartmouth? Maybe you stand a chance of an interview if you perform exceptionally well. COMLEX only or average scores? Your app goes right in the trash.
 
Mad Jack said:
Ivy doesn't mean anything in medicine.
18buy3.jpg
Click to expand...

I wouldn't say Ivy "doesn't mean anything". Pretty much every one of the ivies with an affiliate hospital is at very least, a solid academic program and most are pretty good/excellent, with the notable exception being Dartmouth.

With that said, most of the top programs in a given specialty aren't ivies and only Harvard, Penn and Columbia are consistently top tier across a wide range of specialties.
 
Lexdiamondz said:
I wouldn't say Ivy "doesn't mean anything". Pretty much every one of the ivies with an affiliate hospital is at very least, a solid academic program and most are pretty good/excellent, with the notable exception being Dartmouth.

With that said, most of the top programs in a given specialty aren't ivies and only Harvard, Penn and Columbia are consistently top tier across a wide range of specialties.
Click to expand...
Programs within "Ivy" institutions vary widely in quality. Some wouldn't even be considered in the running for higher tier programs within their specialty if you talk to people within that specialty (Yale comes to mind in this regard).
 
I'm a nurse at one of the Ivy center here in the Northeast and we have some DO residents in IM. Spoke with a couple of them because I plan on going to a DO school and they all stress the importance of step, some research and letters. A few recommended sub I.
 
Mad Jack said:
Programs within "Ivy" institutions vary widely in quality. Some wouldn't even be considered in the running for higher tier programs within their specialty if you talk to people within that specialty (Yale comes to mind in this regard).
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A classmate of mine got an invite at Yale EM and he was so excited about... Step1 220s, step2 240s
 
There are surprisingly a lot of DO's in UPENN for IM and also (off topic) but lot of EM DOs in JHU
 
shisong said:
There are surprisingly a lot of DO's in UPENN for IM and also (off topic) but lot of EM DOs in JHU
Click to expand...
UPenn's community satellite hospitals are full of DOs. UPenn's academic centre overall is not.

JHUs EM APD is a DO. With that said, JHUs EM program isn't that good (and is nowhere near as good as Shock Trauma down the street)

68PGunner said:
Anecdotes like this tell me not to listen to the crap on sdn and just mass apply to all programs when it's my time.
Click to expand...

People mass applying is a big reason why people's applications get filtered out in the first place. When PDs get 1000 apps for 25 spots they end up using filters and not reading 3/4 of the applications anyway, and the biggest losers in that regard are DOs, IMGs and people w/o regional ties.
 
Lexdiamondz said:
UPenn's community satellite hospitals are full of DOs. UPenn's academic centre overall is not.

JHUs EM APD is a DO. With that said, JHUs EM program isn't that good (and is nowhere near as good as Shock Trauma down the street)

People mass applying is a big reason why people's applications get filtered out in the first place. When PDs get 1000 apps for 25 spots they end up using filters and not reading 3/4 of the applications anyway, and the biggest losers in that regard are DOs, IMGs and people w/o regional ties.
Click to expand...

Honestly, residency application is like applying for a job in real life. As a nontrad, I'm planning to bust my a$$ on 4 away rotations and hopefully get those PDs along w/ my home program PD to vouch for me. We will see. But, I plan to give it my all.

I'm not a particular picky person. I just want to match to an ACGME residency in a decent training site among my top 3 specialties. We will see.
 
I've seen a couple of user talking about having your home PD vouching for you during app cycle. It might sound silly but does that hold weight at all for those of us coming from a DO school with their own residency program? Or is this only a thing for MD programs who knows the PD of the program you're applying to type of situation?
 
W19 said:
Yeah, but a low tier MD. My classmate thought him applying there with 220s and 240s was a hail mary pass, but still got invite at Yale, and Emory, UVa etc... A lot of the things that have been said in SDN about bias again DO might be true though. A few people in my class got invites at great IM (i.e U of chicago, U of Miami etc..) programs with 210s, 220s step1.
Click to expand...
Yeah I mean I still think, regardless of what people say, even a low tier MD student is going to have more options than me as a DO student. It is just the way it is. I happen to really like Brown, so if I could match FM there it would be nice. Not really looking for a T20 program, just a good program with a good fit
 
Mona nucleosis said:
Things we may have a shot at in Ivy instituions:
-all FMs
-all primary care track IMs
-affiliated satellite site IMs
-Maybeeeee Dartmouth/Brown IM due to the location

Things we should not count on:
-Any top 20 IM
Click to expand...
Would you mind elaborate on what's the difference of the "primary track IM"? I mean you're still in an solid academic IM program right? There shouldn't be anything stopping you from applying for fellowship? Just curious.
 
Jinxapotato said:
Would you mind elaborate on what's the difference of the "primary track IM"? I mean you're still in an solid academic IM program right? There shouldn't be anything stopping you from applying for fellowship? Just curious.
Click to expand...
I would assume your required letter from the PD for fellowships would indicate your attachment to the primary care track. Definitely would hurt your chances.
 
Jinxapotato said:
Would you mind elaborate on what's the difference of the "primary track IM"? I mean you're still in an solid academic IM program right? There shouldn't be anything stopping you from applying for fellowship? Just curious.
Click to expand...

I’m also pretty sure they’ve structure your rotations different, to help you prepare for a future practice in that realm. It’s like how rural surgery tracks will have residents do some months at smaller community hospitals in rural areas that normally residents don’t rotate at unless they do so as for an elective.
 
Jinxapotato said:
Would you mind elaborate on what's the difference of the "primary track IM"? I mean you're still in an solid academic IM program right? There shouldn't be anything stopping you from applying for fellowship? Just curious.
Click to expand...

Primary-care track IM tends to have a different ratio of inpatient : outpatient months, with more clinic, less wards and less subspecialty/research time. You can still apply to fellowships but your training won't be optimised to be a sub specialist and fellowship PDs will take that into account, especially for more competitive ones like Cards, GI and Heme-onc.
 
W19 said:
I see University Of Puerto Rico here, and you are calling that the greatest DO match. I guess the MD carries a lot of weight.
Click to expand...

No the DO isn’t on that list and I️ don’t know why. I’ve seen him on other stuff. He was a dude from PCOM
 
W19 said:
I understand what you are saying even if the DO is not in the list (not sure why). My point is if it's not a shock when a student from a low tier MD (University of PR) school is in that list, why is it a shock when a student from one of the best DO schools is on the list?
Click to expand...

Because you are right that the MD carries a lot of weight, even if that MD comes from a school that has constantly been on the LCME’s watch list. However you are probably also right in your point that it might be the greatest match ever from that school as well.
 
W19 said:
I understand what you are saying even if the DO is not in the list (not sure why). My point is if it's not a shock when a student from a low tier MD (University of PR) school is in that list, why is it a shock when a student from one of the best DO schools is on the list?
Click to expand...

It probably was a shock to them tbh. But you're in a DO forum and University of PR is a low-tier MD school in a non-English speaking territory outside of the contiguous 48 states, not as many people probably care enough to comment on it.
 
Lexdiamondz said:
It probably was a shock to them tbh. But you're in a DO forum and University of PR is a low-tier MD school in a non-English speaking territory outside of the contiguous 48 states, not as many people probably care enough to comment on it.
Click to expand...

Very well could have been the greatest UPR match ever, that wouldn’t surprise me. I agree not many people care enough or even know enough about UPR to comment.
 
W19 said:
I know for a fact that they have had great match i.e IM at WashU, Psych at Harvard, IM, RadOnc, Ortho, Neurosurgery @miami etc.. at great US institutions over the years. It's amazing that their grads have a leg up over grads from good US DO schools because of the MD tittle...
Click to expand...

I mean unless you have some insight into the quality of education that UPR provides, you really can't comment on whether or not their grads aren't worthy of their matches. Puerto Rico is still the United States and UPR grads are still Allopathic applicants applying in the Allopathic match. Why would it surprise you that MD grads would have advantages over graduates from schools that have deemed it necessary to maintain a separate degree and separate accrediting body? Sounds like sour grapes and poor sportsmanship to me.
 
Deecee2DO said:
Is that einstein's program? How competitive is it?
Click to expand...

Very. I believe it’s considered a solid mid-tiered IM program. 2 DOs matched last year - they were the first DOs in the program (primary care track doesn’t count). Not exactly a top 20, but you’re not even sniffing anywhere near there without an very strong application - it’s most likely out of reach for all but the best DO applicants.
 
W19 said:
First of all, i am a MD student, so I have nothing against another MD school. I don't go to U of PR so I can't comment on the quality of education they got... But I have spent time in PR and in fact I have been to the U of PR campus. Let's be honest here: Even if they are LCME accredited, it's very unlikely their quality of education is on par with US mainland allo schools. I just think the system is unfair.
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What's unfair about it?

The ACGME was basically made for US allopathic graduates, why would it not make sense for MD students to not have an advantage in their own match?

Furthermore "visiting" a campus and going on vacation in PR does not constitute you having any real knowledge of the quality of education at that institution. You're speculating based on your own prejudices. Just like it would be unfair of me to assume that the PCOM grad who matched at Penn for plastics was somehow a beneficiary of nepotism rather than someone who matched on their own merit, it's equally unfair for you to imply that the Puerto Rican grad doesn't deserve to be there.
 
Deecee2DO said:
Dartmouth has FM? I didn't see that. Also, what is the different between HospUPenn and Pennsylvania hospital? Because I saw DOs in the Penn hospital but not UPenn hosp
Click to expand...

As far as FM programs go, Ivy does not necessarily = good. For example, Lancaster General (now an affiliate of Penn, but a year ago this wasn't the case) is a much better and regarded FM program than UPenn's home one.

Seriously, don't just see Ivy and assume its an awesome program, especially for FM. I'm not saying it never is, but its very possible it isn't. Columbia even tried to close down their FM program overnight, until there was a huge uproar. Even now from what I hear the program is struggling.

You need to actually research each program you're interested in. Programs are very different, and depending on what you want, some are clearly better than others.
 
There are two male DO's at Johns Hopkins Hospital, both from Lake Erie.
 
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