Matching ivy FM or IM as a DO?

[shadowlightfox]

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Pretty much any top-20 FM program is open to DOs, and Penn, Columbia, Brown and Dartmouth all have DOs in their FM programs. Remember though, that Ivy doesn't necessarily equal good for FM.

Wait, I was told by someone that UPenn has never accepted a single DO in any of their residencies.

 

[Lexdiamondz]

Thats untrue, Penn has DOs in multiple programs

 

[Noisewater-TDX]

There was a DO Neurosurgery resident at Duke when i was working as a RN there in the PACU. I took a triple take at his badge... He must of destroyed the steps and had some sort of contact there.

 

[AlteredScale]

Thats untrue, Penn has DOs in multiple programs

UPenn/HUP just took in their first DO to their plastic surgery progr

There was a DO Neurosurgery resident at Duke when i was working as a RN there in the PACU. I took a triple take at his badge... He must of destroyed the steps and had some sort of contact there.

Theres no DOs from that program both currently and in their alumni page. Either they were rotating from another program or the ol switcharoo was done on their webpage from DO to MD!

 

[Noisewater-TDX]

UPenn/HUP just took in their first DO to their plastic surgery progr

Theres no DOs from that program both currently and in their alumni page. Either they were rotating from another program or the ol switcharoo was done on their webpage from DO to MD!

I know he came out of the OR and was rounding on a pit tumor patient. But you are right, it could of been an off service rotator. It wasn't usual to see a DO at Duke in general.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

UPenn/HUP just took in their first DO to their plastic surgery progr

Theres no DOs from that program both currently and in their alumni page. Either they were rotating from another program or the ol switcharoo was done on their webpage from DO to MD!

I know he came out of the OR and was rounding on a pit tumor patient. But you are right, it could of been an off service rotator. It wasn't usual to see a DO at Duke in general.

It could have been their spine fellow. He is a DO who did ortho residency at Doctors. We had an ortho resident go to Duke for a trauma fellowship too.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

He must of destroyed the steps and had some sort of contact there.

Also just want to add that I actually know what the apps looked like for a good number of the “wow” DO surgical matches. Not many of them actually destroyed steps or had a contact. The thing they all had in common was quality research that made their app look like an MD applicant’s. On paper they looked like MD applicants, and this was key in getting them the spot they wanted.

 

[Deecee2DO]

Also just want to add that I actually know what the apps looked like for a good number of the “wow” DO surgical matches. Not many of them actually destroyed steps or had a contact. The thing they all had in common was quality research that made their app look like an MD applicant’s. On paper they looked like MD applicants, and this was key in getting them the spot they wanted.

I guess the key is good research then. Good info

 

[hallowmann]

...On paper they looked like MD applicants, and this was key in getting them the spot they wanted.

Literally the key to almost all good ACGME DO matches.

 

[Deecee2DO]

It could have been their spine fellow. He is a DO who did ortho residency at Doctors. We had an ortho resident go to Duke for a trauma fellowship too.

Thats cool to hear. There are actually several DOs at Duke Ortho trauma, spine, hip fellowships this year. ATSU-SOMA, OSU-COM, and LMU-DCOM grads. Current Fellows | ortho.duke.edu

 

[Deecee2DO]

Wait, I was told by someone that UPenn has never accepted a single DO in any of their residencies.

Yeah that isn't true there are several DOs in UPenn's residency programs. You can check online

 

[sab3156]

I hope this is the correct forum to ask this, if not please redirect me to the right one, but my question is this : Is it realistic to try to match IM or FM at an IVY coming from a DO school if you have very competitive step scores, 3rd/4th yr grades, LORs, research etc?

I assume you actually mean "very competitive program" instead of simply "ivy" (these two terms are not synonymous). If you are aiming for a top tier program, especially in IM, you will have a lot of trouble matching even with very strong stats. Sadly, DOs don't just get into IM at MGH or Hopkins with a 270 Step 1 and a few first author research publications. Historically, it doesn't happen. You're competing with people with academic pedigree (students coming from top tier MD schools, schools with whom the top tier IM programs have a good understanding of due to accepting students from there for decades and decades). If you want to get to the top, you need strong mentorship and/or connections with someone influential in the field. If not, forget about it and save your money.

The rare examples of DOs matching into very competitive programs most likely had research under very notable PIs, who then simply wrote letters or made calls for them.

Keep in mind also that the fellowship bias against DOs is far less prevalent than residency bias against DOs. Massachusetts Eye and Ear Infirmary (Harvard Medical School) took two DOs this year for ophthalmic fellowships, which is impressive for sure -but their residency program has a history of taking only well-connected students with strong research and/or academic pedigree for their residency program.

 

[Deecee2DO]

I assume you actually mean "very competitive program" instead of simply "ivy" (these two terms are not synonymous). If you are aiming for a top tier program, especially in IM, you will have a lot of trouble matching even with very strong stats. Sadly, DOs don't just get into IM at MGH or Hopkins with a 270 Step 1 and a few first author research publications. Historically, it doesn't happen. You're competing with people with academic pedigree (students coming from top tier MD schools, schools with whom the top tier IM programs have a good understanding of due to accepting students from there for decades and decades). If you want to get to the top, you need strong mentorship and/or connections with someone influential in the field. If not, forget about it and save your money.

The rare examples of DOs matching into very competitive programs most likely had research under very notable PIs, who then simply wrote letters or made calls for them.

Keep in mind also that the fellowship bias against DOs is far less prevalent than residency bias against DOs. Massachusetts Eye and Ear Infirmary (Harvard Medical School) took two DOs this year for ophthalmic fellowships, which is impressive for sure -but their residency program has a history of taking only well-connected students with strong research and/or academic pedigree for their residency program.

I only asked because I am interested in Brown IM/FM. I know Ivy doesn't necessarily mean "competitive or good", but my question was answered. Thanks for the input!

 

[sab3156]

I only asked because I am interested in Brown IM/FM. I know Ivy doesn't necessarily mean "competitive or good", but my question was answered. Thanks for the input!

Still, build your connections starting now.

 

[IslandStyle808]

I assume you actually mean "very competitive program" instead of simply "ivy" (these two terms are not synonymous). If you are aiming for a top tier program, especially in IM, you will have a lot of trouble matching even with very strong stats. Sadly, DOs don't just get into IM at MGH or Hopkins with a 270 Step 1 and a few first author research publications. Historically, it doesn't happen. You're competing with people with academic pedigree (students coming from top tier MD schools, schools with whom the top tier IM programs have a good understanding of due to accepting students from there for decades and decades). If you want to get to the top, you need strong mentorship and/or connections with someone influential in the field. If not, forget about it and save your money.

The rare examples of DOs matching into very competitive programs most likely had research under very notable PIs, who then simply wrote letters or made calls for them.

Keep in mind also that the fellowship bias against DOs is far less prevalent than residency bias against DOs. Massachusetts Eye and Ear Infirmary (Harvard Medical School) took two DOs this year for ophthalmic fellowships, which is impressive for sure -but their residency program has a history of taking only well-connected students with strong research and/or academic pedigree for their residency program.

When a DO competes with a non-LCME filter, they always lose...

 

[sab3156]

When a DO competes with a non-LCME filter, they always lose...

Yeah it sucks. But getting a strong mentor means those issues are non-existent. If you are able to get on good terms with someone influential in your field of choice early on and do work/research with them, it doesn't matter whether you go to a DO school or a strong MD school. It is the best way (really the only reliable way) to overcome the disadvantage. The non-LCME filter will disappear pretty fast and you turn into the exception that all the residency threads on SDN talk about for years, with people wondering what magical powers the person had. It was probably the simple fact that they had the foresight to just make themselves known to someone influential early on.

 

[Neopolymath]

Yeah it sucks. But getting a strong mentor means those issues are non-existent. If you are able to get on good terms with someone influential in your field of choice early on and do work/research with them, it doesn't matter whether you go to a DO school or a strong MD school. It is the best way (really the only reliable way) to overcome the disadvantage. The non-LCME filter will disappear pretty fast and you turn into the exception that all the residency threads on SDN talk about for years, with people wondering what magical powers the person had. It was probably the simple fact that they had the foresight to just make themselves known to someone influential early on.

Yeah, man. It's as easy as pulling yourself up by your bootstraps!!!

 

[MADD!!!]

So Pennsylvania Hospital (One of UPenn's hospitals and actually the first hospital in the country) was a Dual-Accredited AOA/ACGME residency for IM. They held a specific number of spots just for the AOA match. Also, I've seen from PCOM's previous match lists we've had grads get in for Anesthesiology (they did just this past year) and FM in the past. Regional bias is HUGE. For Philly all the MD schools will give PCOM grads a fair shake IF they have apps comparable to MD students. I think the same is true for other DO schools and their regions as well (Ex. KCU and some of their stellar matches in the area).

BTW for the grad who got into Upenn Plastics, I heard he took a year off doing research at Upenn and was very close with the PD. EVEN after all this, I heard he was told "You're great and really talented, but we can't take you because we don't accept DO's." So I don't know what happened next, but he was literally told this and ended up getting in. So bias was still there EVEN AFTER he had proved himself in all aspects, but he still made it? It's one of those "blue moon" situations.

 

[sab3156]

So Pennsylvania Hospital (One of UPenn's hospitals and actually the first hospital in the country) was a Dual-Accredited AOA/ACGME residency for IM. They held a specific number of spots just for the AOA match. Also, I've seen from PCOM's previous match lists we've had grads get in for Anesthesiology (they did just this past year) and FM in the past. Regional bias is HUGE. For Philly all the MD schools will give PCOM grads a fair shake IF they have apps comparable to MD students. I think the same is true for other DO schools and their regions as well (Ex. KCU and some of their stellar matches in the area).

Yeah, but anesthesiology and IM are at completely different competitive levels. There have been several DO matches even at Hopkins and MGH in anesthesiology, and these are arguably the two best anesthesiology programs in the country. I've seen DOs matching into anesthesiology in a huge number of strong programs. Compare that to the IM matches.

 

[MADD!!!]

Yeah, but anesthesiology and IM are at completely different competitive levels. There have been several DO matches even at Hopkins and MGH in anesthesiology, and these are arguably the two best anesthesiology programs in the country. I've seen DOs matching into anesthesiology in a huge number of strong programs. Compare that to the IM matches.

Yea I agree.