Matching these programs as a DO?

[skatertudoroga]

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[ShyRem]

It all depends on you. I personally knew a DO who received a pre-match offer for anesthesiology at Johns Hopkins. Another in my class matched neurosurg at Loma Linda. We sent someone to Harvard for psych. UNLV. UCSD. Mayo is DO friendly. Cleveland Clinic is DO friendly. University Hospital in Cleveland is DO friendly. I only speak of those because I have personal knowledge. But take a look at the websites of places and see if they have any DO residents or attendings. That will answer your question far better than asking here.

IM isn't terribly competitive. Anesthesiology is. You're talking apples and oranges.

Of course, all this is a totally moot point if you're an average student. If you're outstanding, you can get into darn near anywhere you want if you're the right candidate. It is SO MUCH more on you than your degree.

 

[skatertudoroga]

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[Winged Scapula]

The General Residency forum is designed for topics of interest to residents and former residents.

Questions from pre-med students are best handled in the pre-med forums, where residents who wish to answer specifically can (and do) do so.

Frankly, at this point, I would not worry about the quality of your residency program or what specialty to go in to. Your focus should be on getting into medical school first. There is no reason you cannot succeed as a DO nor do you have any real idea about whether or not you will be competitive for these specialities or whether they will interest you 4 years from now.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I understand that it is to some extent "you" and not your degree. You might have a temporary problem that caused low gpa or mcat in ugrad. You solve it, work harder, and you got no defects. That is someone like Bill Clinton might be a DO. Do you think if somebody so eloquent and commanding did well on step1 anybody would care where he went for school? Or how about a guy with charisma and luck to screw the program director's daughter. Obviously some people get lucky or have special talents,etc. I am asking about someone who has less than average leadership skills? What will a high step1 score get him? Would it even improve my chances that much if i somehow made it into md schools or i would still be shut out of the good residencies if i did not impress my interviewers or rotation sites?

Perhaps it is best for me to try the military residency system? So I could focus not on a medical career but on improving myself as a person? I could at least develop some leadership and people skills so I would not be an embarassment to my family. I just don't like the idea of 10year commitments.

I disagree that IM is not competitive. I did look at resident lists. And most top programs eitehr dont publish them or if they do there are 0/1 DO's. I think top IM program is at least as competitive as top anesthesiology.

Maybe I should just go for FM. It's just that I like IM over FM because of its focus on diagnosis and I would not feel comfortble doing those pelvic or rectal exams or delivering babies. And I want to have long vacations which is why i want to do anesthesiology.

The top anything program is competitive. However again if you want to be a doctor then it doesn't matter if you went to IM residency in { Insert 2nd rate location}. Anyways the top IM residencies are extremely competitive because of IM's high specialization potential. Going to a top program makes it a lot easier to get into cardio or etc.
Your reasons for choosing specialties is extremely asinine and completely without a firm basis in what those specialties actually do.

 

[willen101383]

I hate to break it to ya bub....but youre going to have to do pelvics/deliver babies/do rectals, etc in med school. No way around that.

And if you are going to come to a DO school, you are going to need to learn to be okay with touching others...because you will be touching your classmates (OMG some of them will be females)....a lot.

 

[ShyRem]

The General Residency forum is designed for topics of interest to residents and former residents.

Questions from pre-med students are best handled in the pre-med forums, where residents who wish to answer specifically can (and do) do so.

Frankly, at this point, I would not worry about the quality of your residency program or what specialty to go in to. Your focus should be on getting into medical school first. There is no reason you cannot succeed as a DO nor do you have any real idea about whether or not you will be competitive for these specialities or whether they will interest you 4 years from now.

As usual, you're right. I think I forgot which forum this was in when I replied. I'll blame it on intern year fatigue.

 

[Hottpants89]

Hey I dont really know what I want to do. But I know where I want to do it. I want to do residency at a place like U Minnesota, U Wisconsin, UCLA, UCSD, or NYU or Columbia. So would it be possible as a DO to match IM or Anesthesiology at any of those places? I would like to be a hospitalist or a clinician most likely but I would not want to go to some 3rd tier residency that would limit the rest of my career. I.e. if I want to work at columbia or at university of wisconsin some day I dont think they would hire me if I did a residency at some community hospital. I listed the places above because I want to live in a cool city like Minneapolis with a lot of ugrads(even if you don't date them they still create a pleasant atmosphere in contrast to the old and sick people that you see at the hospital) or I want to be at a prestigious program. It appears that most of those programs take at most 1 DO per year. So how far down would I need to go from my ideal to have a realistic chance of matching? I.e. if my specialty is IM, whats the best program that a DO has a realistic chance of matching? How about anesthesiology?

Let's also define "realistic". I have no problems with motivation. I think I would learn the stuff over the first 2years at a DO school as at any MD. 3rd year clerkships are a little weaker but I could do some independent reading,etc. But I am certain that in some areas(mainly personality) I will still be weaker than MD (and some DO) students just because of my anxiety/personaltiy issues. I have no problems with numbers. Ok, my gpa is a little low. But mcat is very very good. I think if I go to a DO school I will still get 250+ on step1. But I believe the main reason that has kept me out of MD schools is my personality. Interview fail and all that. LORs are weak. So how would it affect my chances for IM or Aneshestiology (i wonder if there are differences between those two) if my only flaws are DO degree and bad personality? Let's assume my DO school allows a lot of electives and I do 1 each at my top places like minnesota, wisconsin,etc. If I am not good enough for those places just because they are very picky would LORs from those places at least help me at less competitive places? Or I would hurt my chances at lesser programs by not doing elective clerkships there?
What are the top IM and top Anesthesiology programs that a DO described above can realistically get?

Its pretty clear that you are looking at osteopathic schools as second rate, compared to allopathic. You seem to be settling for attending one because of your low gpa, weak letters, and lack of people skills. That's what I got from your 2 posts anyways.

If the lack of interview skills is keeping you out of MD schools you may have a problem getting into DO schools too. They seem to put more weight on the whole applicant where MD schools seem to put more on straight grades and MCAT.

If you are looking for long vacations without having to deal with pelvics, rectals, babies, or people in general, then you may be in the wrong field completely.

 

[skatertudoroga]

I hate to break it to ya bub....but youre going to have to do pelvics/deliver babies/do rectals, etc in med school. No way around that.

And if you are going to come to a DO school, you are going to need to learn to be okay with touching others...because you will be touching your classmates (OMG some of them will be females)....a lot.

There is a difference between doing it as a student to figure out that you don't like it and doing it every day as part of your "enjoyable" career. Feeling up your classmate is not the same as disempacting a 70yo woman ok?

 

[willen101383]

There is a difference between doing it as a student to figure out that you don't like it and doing it every day as part of your "enjoyable" career. Feeling up your classmate is not the same as disempacting a 70yo woman ok?

Have you done it as a student yet? I understand your point, nobody enjoys doing these things, but they are part of life as a physician and something you will eventually need to be okay with even if you dont do it in your every day practice.

 

[skatertudoroga]

Have you done it as a student yet? I understand your point, nobody enjoys doing these things, but they are part of life as a physician and something you will eventually need to be okay with even if you dont do it in your every day practice.

I haven't done it. Not all physicians do rectal exams all day long. Anesthesiologists don't do it. Etc. I just made this thread to get some input on competitiveness for residency. Anybody who tells you you can be anything you want to be takes you for an idiot. I would not be capable of becoming a successful plastic surgeon even if i were willing to sell my sister into slavery for it.

 

[willen101383]

I haven't done it. Not all physicians do rectal exams all day long. Anesthesiologists don't do it. Etc. I just made this thread to get some input on competitiveness for residency. Anybody who tells you you can be anything you want to be takes you for an idiot. I would not be capable of becoming a successful plastic surgeon even if i were willing to sell my sister into slavery for it.

I never said all physicians did anything all day long. I am saying that if the situation warrants it you need to be able and willing to just do it. I am not trying to insult you or belittle you; just dont try to pigeonhole yourself into one area of medicine based on the limited experience you have. Just because you dont like the idea of doing certain procedures doesnt mean you you should limit yourself to IM/anesthesiology...especially since you will need to do some of this crap as an IM.

At any rate...if you have major beef with going to a DO school please dont. However, keep in mind that if you attend one of the more established DO schools: A. your rotations will be most likely just as strong as your MD counterparts B. you will still have a pretty good shot at being able to do what you want within reason. You may not have a shot at certain top IM programs just based on the fact that you are a DO... but there are plenty of other great options out there. If you cant live with the fact that you probably wont be able to do your residency training @ MGH or something than you should look into waiting until your stats are good enough to get into an MD school.

 

[jinobi]

Hmm, I remember you. You said:

I am just going to say that I have no interest in General Surgery or in Miami. But it is a fact that MD schools(I meant US MD) are a zillion times better than DO for any specialty or program you might want. To whoever is in doubt, just look up resident lists of programs you might be interested in. Not all programs publicize their resident info but many do and you can make your own conclusions.

There's a DO that matched into UCLA Anesthesiology this year, and others have matched into the UC IM programs. From what I've heard, there is some DO bias at ACGME programs. Clinical rotations can be spread out at DO programs, and some have a heavy primary care focus. However, you can perform away Sub-I rotations at any ACGME place; whether you actually get a LOR from a well-known attending and perform well during that Sub-I though, is up to you.

 

[skatertudoroga]

I have not created this thread to discuss anything that is being discussed here. I don't know what specialty I would go into. But IM is one of the more popular specialties and I think every premed should at least consider either IM or Gen Surgery or both. Anesthesia is very different from IM as I described. Neither specialty is competitive. But if you take top programs then they do become competitive. As exemplified by the lack of DO's in the top programs. Please don't discuss that 1 DO at ucla or johns hopkins. Or how DOs dont really want anything competitive. I am not interested to hear that. I am just asking about a hypothetical scenario:

Student A attended a DO school and got 250 on step1. He studied as diligently during M3, read all those clinical textbooks, came to work on time all the time,etc. He took electives at top hospitals in his specialty of choice. He wants to do IM residency at U Wisconsin. He has just one problem besides being DO. He has certain personality flaws that may include anxiety around strangers or just being tactless or narrowminded,etc. He may look intimidated in front of an adcom, while around people he knows well he behaves like a spoiled 5yo. I.e. take Bill Clinton and remove all of his positive character traits. What will be his chances of matching? What is the best IM program that he could match into?

Student B same thing except instead of IM it is anesthesiology. I am only asking, not claiming anything. Is it possible that in some specialties being articulate or confident or outgoing is less essential than in others?

 

[Hottpants89]

I have not created this thread to discuss anything that is being discussed here. I don't know what specialty I would go into. But IM is one of the more popular specialties and I think every premed should at least consider either IM or Gen Surgery or both. Anesthesia is very different from IM as I described. Neither specialty is competitive. But if you take top programs then they do become competitive. As exemplified by the lack of DO's in the top programs. Please don't discuss that 1 DO at ucla or johns hopkins. Or how DOs dont really want anything competitive. I am not interested to hear that. I am just asking about a hypothetical scenario:

Student A attended a DO school and got 250 on step1. He studied as diligently during M3, read all those clinical textbooks, came to work on time all the time,etc. He took electives at top hospitals in his specialty of choice. He wants to do IM residency at U Wisconsin. He has just one problem besides being DO. He has certain personality flaws that may include anxiety around strangers or just being tactless or narrowminded,etc. He may look intimidated in front of an adcom, while around people he knows well he behaves like a spoiled 5yo. I.e. take Bill Clinton and remove all of his positive character traits. What will be his chances of matching? What is the best IM program that he could match into?

Student B same thing except instead of IM it is anesthesiology. I am only asking, not claiming anything. Is it possible that in some specialties being articulate or confident or outgoing is less essential than in others?

No, that is not possible. Even though an anesthesiologist may use their people skills less than a family doctor, the residency admissions will pick the best possible candidate for the position, and having good people skills is a huge part of being the best applicant. Even though you may not necessarily need the skills for the job, why would they pick someone without the skills when they could have someone with them?

Those skills are less essential in some specialties, but the admissions committees will still decide whether or not you get the position by judging you on those skills.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Just so clarify ...

a. You have not been accepted to any medical school as of yet? I'm not saying that you won't, just that, as of this moment in time, you have not yet been accepted to/started medical school?

b. You do not know what field you'd like to enter, but you are positive you would either like to practice on the West coast, East coast, or Midwest?

c. You already know the specific hospitals system in which you would like to work??

Am I missing anything?

 

[skatertudoroga]

At any rate...if you have major beef with going to a DO school please dont. However, keep in mind that if you attend one of the more established DO schools: A. your rotations will be most likely just as strong as your MD counterparts B. you will still have a pretty good shot at being able to do what you want within reason. You may not have a shot at certain top IM programs just based on the fact that you are a DO... but there are plenty of other great options out there. If you cant live with the fact that you probably wont be able to do your residency training @ MGH or something than you should look into waiting until your stats are good enough to get into an MD school.

I have several questions on this:
1) what does it mean rotations are strong or not? Does it mean you get to learn as much in M3? I thought when it came to learning medicine you just read a text such as Harrison's and try to diagnose a patient and if you get it wrong then the physician corrects you. Sure there are cases where 1 doctor gets it right and 1 does not. Or some cases that are only available at certain hospitals. But I don't see how the learning experience is that much different. I mean there are some terrible hospitals but I would imagine that an average hospital would prepare you for M4 as well as a superprestigious hospital. Could you explain what the differences are between a strong and a weak hospital from a student's perspective? And in M4 correct me if I am wrong but even if you go to a terrible school you can still take electives at top hospitals to learn with the best. It's just that most learning is done during residency.

2) while I don't know much about clinical knowledge I suspect that most of it is gained during residency and I would be able to get sufficient knowledge at any medical school to handle a residency. My major area of weakness is people skills. I feel that any medical school makes an equally positive effect on your people skills but if you started at a lower point than others (i.e. people who interview well), you will still be below them at the end of med school. You might even get lower grades on clinical rotations just because of these defects. This is not a question but a prelude to #3.
3) So a student described in #2 cant get into MGH. But what's the most prestigious residency that he can get? If he's a DO vs a MD?

 

[Hottpants89]

I have several questions on this:
1) what does it mean rotations are strong or not? Does it mean you get to learn as much in M3? I thought when it came to learning medicine you just read a text such as Harrison's and try to diagnose a patient and if you get it wrong then the physician corrects you. Sure there are cases where 1 doctor gets it right and 1 does not. Or some cases that are only available at certain hospitals. But I don't see how the learning experience is that much different. I mean there are some terrible hospitals but I would imagine that an average hospital would prepare you for M4 as well as a superprestigious hospital. Could you explain what the differences are between a strong and a weak hospital from a student's perspective? And in M4 correct me if I am wrong but even if you go to a terrible school you can still take electives at top hospitals to learn with the best. It's just that most learning is done during residency.

2) while I don't know much about clinical knowledge I suspect that most of it is gained during residency and I would be able to get sufficient knowledge at any medical school to handle a residency. My major area of weakness is people skills. I feel that any medical school makes an equally positive effect on your people skills but if you started at a lower point than others (i.e. people who interview well), you will still be below them at the end of med school. You might even get lower grades on clinical rotations just because of these defects. This is not a question but a prelude to #3.
3) So a student described in #2 cant get into MGH. But what's the most prestigious residency that he can get? If he's a DO vs a MD?

I understand your question, but if you can't get into an MD school, what makes you think you will be able to get the most prestigious residency? Your competition for getting into school is just a bunch of premeds, but your competition for those residencies will be the best students from the schools who would not accept you.

 

[w a n g]

Wow. It isnt just people skills keeping you out of allo schools.... I cant tell if this thread is a joke.

 

[skatertudoroga]

Even though you may not necessarily need the skills for the job, why would they pick someone without the skills when they could have someone with them?
.

Perhaps you should create your own thread instead of asking this philosophical question?

 

[skatertudoroga]

I understand your question, but if you can't get into an MD school, what makes you think you will be able to get the most prestigious residency? Your competition for getting into school is just a bunch of premeds, but your competition for those residencies will be the best students from the schools who would not accept you.

I am asking what IS the most prestigious residency that I can get into in that case?

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I am asking what IS the most prestigious residency that I can get into in that case?

Jesus your thick.

 

[skatertudoroga]

Just so clarify ...

a. You have not been accepted to any medical school as of yet? I'm not saying that you won't, just that, as of this moment in time, you have not yet been accepted to/started medical school?

b. You do not know what field you'd like to enter, but you are positive you would either like to practice on the West coast, East coast, or Midwest?

c. You already know the specific hospitals system in which you would like to work??

Am I missing anything?

a. I cannot answer this question. Better if you think of me as a troll.
b. No. I do not like west coast, east coast, midwest. But I like certain cities like Minneapolis, Madison, Manhattan.
c. I do not understand the question.

 

[Hottpants89]

I am asking what IS the most prestigious residency that I can get into in that case?

Any residency is possible with DO. People do it every year. It is unlikely that you would get an extremely prestigious one, but it would also be unlikely if you attended an MD school. They are obviously hard to get. There are a lot of more important factors in getting residencies than just degree, including people skills. If you are looking for prestige, MD is probably the way to go because there are some still places that favor MD over DO. If you even mention the word prestige at an interview though, you won't even get into a school.

 

[Longshanks]

I have not created this thread to discuss anything that is being discussed here. I don't know what specialty I would go into. But IM is one of the more popular specialties and I think every premed should at least consider either IM or Gen Surgery or both. Anesthesia is very different from IM as I described. Neither specialty is competitive. But if you take top programs then they do become competitive. As exemplified by the lack of DO's in the top programs. Please don't discuss that 1 DO at ucla or johns hopkins. Or how DOs dont really want anything competitive. I am not interested to hear that. I am just asking about a hypothetical scenario:

Student A attended a DO school and got 250 on step1. He studied as diligently during M3, read all those clinical textbooks, came to work on time all the time,etc. He took electives at top hospitals in his specialty of choice. He wants to do IM residency at U Wisconsin. He has just one problem besides being DO. He has certain personality flaws that may include anxiety around strangers or just being tactless or narrowminded,etc. He may look intimidated in front of an adcom, while around people he knows well he behaves like a spoiled 5yo. I.e. take Bill Clinton and remove all of his positive character traits. What will be his chances of matching? What is the best IM program that he could match into?

Student B same thing except instead of IM it is anesthesiology. I am only asking, not claiming anything. Is it possible that in some specialties being articulate or confident or outgoing is less essential than in others?

What is all this gibberish of odd analogies and comparisons that aren't remotely real? And your obsession with Bill Clinton?

Its not all about getting into the "most prestigious" residency. Many students chose based on location, family needs, or a host of other factors. People will tell you about the "one DO" here or there that you don't want to hear about, because just understand the numbers.. 1 in 9 (or is it 12??) physicians are a DO, so there may be just one DO in a program, not because of lack of competency but simply because there are less DO's. You can match what you want, generally speaking, so long as you perform strongly on your board and rotations, get good letters, and if you know people or make a good strong impression on your superiors and others you meet along the way. Its all anecdotal, but anyone here can mention a DO they know in a good program or "top" program (whatever "top" means). Your concern should be getting in school first.

DO isn't going to prevent you from specializing. And remember, there's many other big fish out there... you aren't the only guy, so MD or DO, regardless, a competitive residency is going to be competitive. Your degree alone isn't going to decide your residency fate.

Just so clarify ...

a. You have not been accepted to any medical school as of yet? I'm not saying that you won't, just that, as of this moment in time, you have not yet been accepted to/started medical school?

b. You do not know what field you'd like to enter, but you are positive you would either like to practice on the West coast, East coast, or Midwest?

c. You already know the specific hospitals system in which you would like to work??

Am I missing anything?

 

[skatertudoroga]

Jesus your thick.

Based on your mdapps you are an 18yo 300-person lecture gunner who thinks himself important enough to take part in a residency match discussion?

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Based on your mdapps you are an 18yo 300-person lecture gunner who thinks himself important enough to take part in a residency match discussion?

No I'm important enough to call you out for a *****. If this is a conversation on residency then I'm a ballerina.

 

[skatertudoroga]

What is all this gibberish of odd analogies and comparisons that aren't remotely real? And your obsession with Bill Clinton?

Its not all about getting into the "most prestigious" residency. Many students chose based on location, family needs, or a host of other factors. People will tell you about the "one DO" here or there that you don't want to hear about, because just understand the numbers.. 1 in 9 (or is it 12??) physicians are a DO, so there may be just one DO in a program, not because of lack of competency but simply because there are less DO's. You can match what you want, generally speaking, so long as you perform strongly on your board and rotations, get good letters, and if you know people or make a good strong impression on your superiors and others you meet along the way. Its all anecdotal, but anyone here can mention a DO they know in a good program or "top" program (whatever "top" means). Your concern should be getting in school first.

DO isn't going to prevent you from specializing. And remember, there's many other big fish out there... you aren't the only guy, so MD or DO, regardless, a competitive residency is going to be competitive. Your degree alone isn't going to decide your residency fate.

You did nothing to answer my question. Was the point of your post just to insult me? Bill Clinton would get in anywhere he applied. I have been rejected throughout my life numerous times. I do not have any talents.

 

[skatertudoroga]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kI7tZ5gfgLg
This guy made it into UCSF. Why can't I

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

You did nothing to answer my question. Was the point of your post just to insult me? Bill Clinton would get in anywhere he applied. I have been rejected throughout my life numerous times. I do not have any talents.

Everyone has found troubles and rejection in there life. That's no excuse to be such an ass and ignore everything everyone's saying and repeatedly demand they answer open ended questions.

 

[skatertudoroga]

Everyone has found troubles and rejection in there life. That's no excuse to be such an ass and ignore everything everyone's saying and repeatedly demand they answer open ended questions.

Nobody cares about what you got to say ,ok baby?

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Nobody cares about what you got to say ,ok baby?

Goodness you're spectacular, I pitied you up until this post, now I just think you're hilarious.
Have a nice life.

 

[painmd87]

This thread started as nonsense, got somewhat entertaining, has a very strange obsession with the 42nd President and now is turning nasty.

So let's sum it up and get out of here:

Your ability to match a "prestigious" residency and ultimately land a job at the hospital system of your choice depends on significantly more than the letters at the end of your name. Will they matter? Maybe. Will your test scores, letters of recommendation, performances on rotations, personal character and communication abilities matter significantly more? Absolutely. In 3+x years (x being the amount of time it takes you to matriculate to a school), check back with us and let us know how you did.

That was easy.

 

[Sam212]

lol, don't know where the OP got the idea that they can score a 250 in step I, it's easier said than done my friend, I certainly wouldn't make any claims as a premed about my step I capabilities.

 

[ProtossCarrier]

what a strange pile of ****.