May I tell my top program that they are the top?

[jennyx]

Is it a match violation if I email a program or express it in my thank you notes that they are my top residency choice? In fact, they are actually my No. 1 choice. Will it hurt my chance or help me? I will appreciate any input!

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[NotAProgDirector]

Is it a match violation if I email a program or express it in my thank you notes that they are my top residency choice? In fact, they are actually my No. 1 choice. Will it hurt my chance or help me? I will appreciate any input!

It is perfectly legal to do so. It usually has little (if any) effect on your ranking.

 

[DoctorWannaBe]

Has anyone ever seen this on the NRMP website? Any speculation as to why you shouldn't let programs know how you will rank them?

"There is one cardinal rule for both programs and applicants: neither must ask the other prior to the Match to make a commitment as to how each will be ranked. Each party may express a high level of interest in the other; however, references to how each will rank the other should be avoided and should definitely not be solicited. Neither programs nor applicants should consider these comments about interest as commitments. Candor and honesty are important for both programs and applicants."

http://www.nrmp.org/about_nrmp/how.html

 

[dmitrinyr]

Has anyone ever seen this on the NRMP website? Any speculation as to why you shouldn't let programs know how you will rank them?

"There is one cardinal rule for both programs and applicants: neither must ask the other prior to the Match to make a commitment as to how each will be ranked. Each party may express a high level of interest in the other; however, references to how each will rank the other should be avoided and should definitely not be solicited. Neither programs nor applicants should consider these comments about interest as commitments. Candor and honesty are important for both programs and applicants."

http://www.nrmp.org/about_nrmp/how.html

I think this statement is meant to limit liability on the part of NRMP if a situation arises were an applicant was told that they are #1 ranked and then did not match at that program. It's like the warning stickers on any product trying to limit any possibility of a lawsuit.

 

[mlw03]

i think the main issue is if either party actively asks the other how they plan to rank. as i understand it, you (or the program) can volunteer whatever info you want, but you cannot ask the other party how they plan to rank you. however i suspect, like aProg said, that it matters little from the program's perspective.

Has anyone ever seen this on the NRMP website? Any speculation as to why you shouldn't let programs know how you will rank them?

"There is one cardinal rule for both programs and applicants: neither must ask the other prior to the Match to make a commitment as to how each will be ranked. Each party may express a high level of interest in the other; however, references to how each will rank the other should be avoided and should definitely not be solicited. Neither programs nor applicants should consider these comments about interest as commitments. Candor and honesty are important for both programs and applicants."

http://www.nrmp.org/about_nrmp/how.html

 

[nevercold]

I have heard that for some more competitive specialties that "playing the game" is more important. Part of this is telling a program that they are your #1, because if that program is concerned about how far down their list they go to fill, they may bump you above other people as long as you are close to those people in competitiveness level.

 

[Rasengan]

It is perfectly legal to do so. It usually has little (if any) effect on your ranking.

Ive heard what you've said, and then I've also heard that a lot of programs like the idea of not having to go very far down their RoL (it just "looks" bad, supposedly). So in the latter case, wouldnt it benefit you (or via your own PD) to tell programs you are going to rank them #1? Especially since it seems as if applicants, like programs, are naturally organized more into tiers rather than a rank (though the system forces the former into the latter)?

 

[NotAProgDirector]

Ive heard what you've said, and then I've also heard that a lot of programs like the idea of not having to go very far down their RoL (it just "looks" bad, supposedly). So in the latter case, wouldnt it benefit you (or via your own PD) to tell programs you are going to rank them #1? Especially since it seems as if applicants, like programs, are naturally organized more into tiers rather than a rank (though the system forces the former into the latter)?

No one can see how far down a list a program goes. So it doesn't look bad to anyone.

If you are really planning on ranking a program #1, there is no harm to saying that. What's potentially bad is telling a program that they are #1, and then not doing that. Adademic medicine is a small community, and people will remember things like this. When you're looking for a fellowship, job, etc, this might come back to haunt you. Maybe not, but still I'm old fashioned and like the idea of honesty.

 

[Rasengan]

No one can see how far down a list a program goes. So it doesn't look bad to anyone.

If you are really planning on ranking a program #1, there is no harm to saying that. What's potentially bad is telling a program that they are #1, and then not doing that. Adademic medicine is a small community, and people will remember things like this. When you're looking for a fellowship, job, etc, this might come back to haunt you. Maybe not, but still I'm old fashioned and like the idea of honesty.

Yeah thats why I thought having your PD make the call would be better, because that way the program knows for sure they are really your #1.

 

[Winged Scapula]

No one can see how far down a list a program goes. So it doesn't look bad to anyone.

I would beg to disagree.

I know where I have ranked all my applicants. So if I match the 4 positions I have and go down to the 10th person on my list, I know "how far down the list" I've had to go.

Believe me, we heard every year during residency how far down the list we had to go. It was a big deal if we got our top 4 in only 4 ranks. Same for fellowship...as a matter of fact, had a PD from a very prestigious program tell me that if he had to go down to number 10 for his two matches, "something didn't work right with the match."

Now, the applicant has no idea how far down they were on the program's list, so it doesn't make a difference to them. And of course, we don't really know where we were on their list either...except to make the assumption that if we matched our top candidates we were high on their list.

 

[Hard24Get]

I would beg to disagree.

I know where I have ranked all my applicants. So if I match the 4 positions I have and go down to the 10th person on my list, I know "how far down the list" I've had to go.

Believe me, we heard every year during residency how far down the list we had to go. It was a big deal if we got our top 4 in only 4 ranks. Same for fellowship...as a matter of fact, had a PD from a very prestigious program tell me that if he had to go down to number 10 for his two matches, "something didn't work right with the match."

But why is it a big deal? And would you change your ROL to avoid going down lower on your list?

 

[gutonc]

I would beg to disagree.

I know where I have ranked all my applicants. So if I match the 4 positions I have and go down to the 10th person on my list, I know "how far down the list" I've had to go.

I think what aPD meant was that how far a program went on their list is not publicly available information. Sure, programs share internally how far they went on their list but it's not like you find that info on the NRMP page.

 

[Anka]

But why is it a big deal? And would you change your ROL to avoid going down lower on your list?

In a sane world, no. Because you want the best applicants you can get your hands on, even if that means having to "eat" going down another ten spots in your ROL (which is kind of meaninless as aPD pointed out). In real life, some programs pride themselves on only going down six to match for six spots and brag about it. Some will change their rank lists to rank the six whose PDs called for them at the top.

Anka

 

[Winged Scapula]

But why is it a big deal? And would you change your ROL to avoid going down lower on your list?

Of course not because that would imply we would be ranking lesser candidates higher to ensure we don't go down very far on the list. Its pure ego driven to be stuck on how far down the list you go before filling.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

Of course not because that would imply we would be ranking lesser candidates higher to ensure we don't go down very far on the list. Its pure ego driven to be stuck on how far down the list you go before filling.

I was trying to find a nice / non-insulting way of saying this.....

 

[Winged Scapula]

I was trying to find a nice / non-insulting way of saying this.....

No need to...it wasn't MY ego that was involved!

 

[Long Dong]

Its pure ego driven to be stuck on how far down the list you go before filling.

Same thing for applicants when they say how far down their list they matched.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Same thing for applicants when they say how far down their list they matched.

Exactly.