MBBS Help

[makeitbrahs]

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So I got recommended here from the HSDN forum. There's a TL;DR at the bottom.

I'm currently 17 and a (soon-to-be) High School Senior. I have a 3.6 unweighted gpa (Very strong upward curve. 3.1 Freshman year to 4.0 Junior year) with a 2150 SAT. I've only taken the SAT once, and I'm studying for it very hard now, so I plan to hit 2200+. Perhaps in the 2300's. I also have extracurricular activities, most notably starting a wrestling team at my school (we never had one before me) and then bringing that team to win our District tournament. If that counts for anything.

I've wanted to become a doctor since 7th grade. However, I do not want to spend 10+ years in college just to graduate with a load of debt. Moreover, I do not plan to stay within the US after I graduate.

I plan to practice within Europe (preferably West), Canada, or Australia.

Therefore, I have been looking into the MBBS programs offered to international students.

However, let alone decide on a school/pathway, I can't even figure out what country would be good to start in. At first the Netherlands seemed great. However, you need to be fluent in Dutch to attend their MBBS programs. My research also temporarily directed me towards China and India, both of which have mixed reviews. (I know someone who obtained a MBBS from China and practices here. However, she says the current system is different than when she had gone.)

China seems to be "lower" in a sense, much like how people view the Caribbean schools. Even lower than that, perhaps. India has such mixed reviews that I have absolutely no idea what goes on there. Some say they aren't great schools while others tell whole stories on how competitive and challenging it is. UK seems to need an Undergraduate degree to apply. (I heard people talking about MCAT scores with their applications?)

Could any of you kindly provide some insight as to what country I should look more into? Universities that provide English lectures would be preferred.

TL;DR What countries/universities should I look at for MBBS coming from the US? I want to practice in Europe (West favored), Canada, or Australia. Where I get the MBBS isn't too significant as long as I can practice in said countries with minimum licensing hurdles.

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Before anyone says "You have the wrong motivations" because I don't want to study within the US due to costs, I want to make myself clear. I don't mind studying within the US. However, my ultimatum is not to become a rich doctor practicing here, nor is it to just become a MD. My goal is to become a doctor to help people, to enjoy my work, and to support my family.

Therefore, I am trying to look at this situation as practically as possible. Only starting to work when I'm 32 and paying off debt until I'm 45 is not practical to me.

 

[Medstart108]

UK doesn't need undergrad at all! Most of the courses in the UK are direct entry from high school that is the normal way they do it. India's system comes from the British system. I recommend checking out the UK if you are determined to go abroad. The UK will let you stay and do residency there if u can't come back to the US. Its not a bad option at all. You need to write the UKCAT and or BMAT depending on the schools get 1 letter of reference and have some work experience preferably healthcare related or shadowing. And then you need to apply by Oct 15 that is the deadline. The system they use is UCAS. www.studentroom.co.uk is the forum they all use and its got guides for applying to medicine. Lots of internationals aim for the UK, its not easy because they have quotas and it isn't cheap, but its probably the best option for you and they like to see decent SAT scores and yours are decent.

Other countries aren't as good for being able to practice in them, this is what makes the UK kind of difficult to get in, but its worth an application. They don't care much about the GPA but they want to see APs preferably 5s and they want to see a high SAT I/ACT score or SAT IIs if you don't have APs. The UK puts a lot of importance on standardized tests and little on GPA and since your GPA isn't too great its good news.

If not, the other options are Ireland and some of the 7 year programs in Australia. I recommend the UK mostly because they let you do all your foundation and residency in the UK as well as practice there even if ur not a EU citizen.

 

[makeitbrahs]

Alright, thanks a ton for your help. I'll look further into the UK.

I do not have any experience in shadowing doctors. Here in SoCal, it's hard for a high schooler to get shadowing opportunities: they're packed with (and reserved for) active premeds. I do have an Educational Research internship done with a professor from a State College (CalState). Would that help at all?

Could you compare the difficulty of being accepted to a UK school to one of the US colleges? I'm a bit confused as to how hard it is to get in. Is it more like UC Berkeley or Harvard or University of Texas?

What would a "good" score for the SAT be? Google doesn't show average SAT scores from the UK... which makes sense, considering how they accept foreign students from all over. I can definitely bring my score up higher. 2150 was from mild studying (1 week before the test). Now I'm actually digging into the books.

Is this the guide you're talking about? http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?t=939627

Finally, are there certain Universities to aim for more than others? There are always rankings, but if they're all comparable to each other...

Do you happen to know what an average application looks like? I'd like to see if I'll stand a chance. Google search isn't giving me the results 🙁 Not to mention I don't know whether the universities I'm looking at are good at all.

Sorry, I know I have as many questions as leaves on a tree, but this is a potentially life-changing decision and I'd like to get as much information as possible before applying.

Once again, thank you very much for your help! I really appreciate it!

 

[Medstart108]

Alright, thanks a ton for your help. I'll look further into the UK.

I do not have any experience in shadowing doctors. Here in SoCal, it's hard for a high schooler to get shadowing opportunities: they're packed with (and reserved for) active premeds. I do have an Educational Research internship done with a professor from a State College (CalState). Would that help at all?

Could you compare the difficulty of being accepted to a UK school to one of the US colleges? I'm a bit confused as to how hard it is to get in. Is it more like UC Berkeley or Harvard or University of Texas?

What would a "good" score for the SAT be? Google doesn't show average SAT scores from the UK... which makes sense, considering how they accept foreign students from all over. I can definitely bring my score up higher. 2150 was from mild studying (1 week before the test). Now I'm actually digging into the books.

Is this the guide you're talking about? http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?t=939627

Finally, are there certain Universities to aim for more than others? There are always rankings, but if they're all comparable to each other...

Do you happen to know what an average application looks like? I'd like to see if I'll stand a chance. Google search isn't giving me the results 🙁 Not to mention I don't know whether the universities I'm looking at are good at all.

Sorry, I know I have as many questions as leaves on a tree, but this is a potentially life-changing decision and I'd like to get as much information as possible before applying.

Once again, thank you very much for your help! I really appreciate it!

No problem,

The guide you posted is useful but wasn't what i was referring to here is the link http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/wiki/Category:Medicine. Its tough to say but I think getting into med school in the UK is probably around as hard to get into a school like UPenn, JHU or Berkeley. For reference I had a 2170, 760 Bio-M and 800 World Hist and I didn't get interviews from 2 schools. Maybe they didn't like my high school grades, but i'm from Canada so what they look at is different. I hear that they don't look at high school for americans.

http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/wiki/A_Rookies_Guide_To_Getting_Into_Medical_School#Extra_Curricular you can find this as a link under the first link but I posted it because its important.

Once you get familiar with the process you can move on to the forums for more specialized questions http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/forumdisplay.php?f=195 and there are subforums for individual medical schools. The student room is basically a combination of college confidential and studentdoctor. You can even find threads where people who got in post their stats. Most of them are british stats but you'll get an idea of the extracurriculars required. UKCAT is really important, its the one test that you'll need to study for its not too tough to study its more like an IQ/Speed test its not something you can study too much for. The UKCAT is the one thing they can compare you to.

Edinburgh Medical School for the past few years has an acceptance rate for international medicine that was around 10.2% with a matric rate (i.e. the % of people who take up the offer after accepted) of around 70%. These stats are very similar to some of the most competitive schools in the US like the Ivies so I guess that gives you an idea. Not all medical schools are this competitive and some are even more (Oxford accepted 1 student from well over 200 applications in 2012) so it can be really competitive for internationals especially.

I copied over a few applicant profiles for you to look at:

Year of Entry: 2014

Deferred? No

GCSEs : 10A*s and 3As

AS Grades: - (I do Pre-Us)

A2 Predictions: D1 D1 D2 A* (4A*s)

UKCAT: 752.5 Band 1

BMAT: 6.2 ; 5.5 ; 2A

Work Experience/Volunteering:
1 Week volunteering at the Obs and Gynae ward in a hospital in Chiang Mai (Gap medics)
2 weeks shadowing surgeons at a hospital in Kuala Lumpur (my hometown)
4 months volunteering at a hospital in Surrey - feeding elderly patients
Volunteering at the animal shelter

Extra Curricular:
3 school choirs
Fencing team
Head of chemistry society
Prefect in previous school

Universities applied to and Decisions:

St Catharine's College, Cambridge University: Post Interview rejection
Imperial College: Pre interview rejection
University of Southampton: Withdrew (they took too long)
University of Nottingham: Offer AAA - FIRMED

UCL - Medicinal Chemistry: Rejection

It was really tough when it was 26th March and I'd had 3 rejections and no offers. The main thing is to just hang in there and hope for the best. And also to do well in all 3 sections of the BMAT

It was also extra tough as an international student, knowing there is a quota. I thought I would have to reapply and that frightened me. It was such a relief to get Notts - love them!

PM me if you have any questions

Year of Entry: 2014

Standard Grades (Scottish applicants): Eight 1's in English, Maths, French, Modern Studies, Biology, Chemistry, Physics, and Art

Higher grades (Scottish applicants): Five A's in English, Maths, Biology, Chemistry, and Physics

Advanced Higher predictions: Three A's in Biology, Chemistry and Physics

UKCAT (if applicable): 800 and SJT Band 2

Work Experience/Volunteering:
2 day's shadowing GP in local health centre, 1 day at radiography, 1 day at centre for prosthetics, 1 week shadowing in maternity hospital, and 1 week on Edinburgh medic insight programme. Volunteered for 9 months at children's home, six hour shift every fortnight. Volunteer within school library each week. Volunteered with peer mentoring and was trained in mental health first aid.

Extra Curricular:
Won school Dux Award, and first prize in Biology, Chemistry, Physics and Maths. School Prefect and buddy to younger pupils. Undertook a chemistry summer school at Strathclyde University, and Open University module on medicines. Silver Crest Award on the effect of music on memory. Participated in the national CanSat competition. Completed Bronze, Silver and working towards Gold DofE. Danced since age of four. Self taught piano, and working at grade 7 violin. Leader of school orchestra and play in various other musical groups. Member of school choir.

Universities applied to and decisions:
Aberdeen - Unsuccesful post interview
Glasgow - OFFER AB in Advanced Highers
Edinburgh - OFFER Conditional on PVG
St Andrews - OFFER AB in Advanced Highers
St Andrews (Medicinal Chemistry) - OFFER Unconditional

Year of Entry 2013

Deferred? No

GCSEs 2 A*'s (Maths, Chem) 7 A's (Bio, Phys, Stats, Eng lit, Eng lang, RS, Geog) 2 B's (French, Humanities)

AS Grades Maths - A (598/600), Biology - A (276/300), Chemistry - A (283/300). ~ 96% average.

A2 Results 3 A*s (Maths, F. Maths, Bio) + A in Chem

UKCAT (if applicable) 682.5

BMAT (if applicable) 5, 6.2, 3A

Work Experience/Volunteering Will add in later (Message if I haven't and you're interested)

Extra Curricular County cricket, amongst several other sports at school team level.

Universities applied to and decisions

Cambridge (Pembroke) - post-interview rejection (messed up one question/poor GCSE's)
Durham - Pre-interview rejection (Cut off was 695 UKCAT)
HYMS - Early Offer (Insurance)
Imperial - Offer (Firm)

Year of Entry: 2014
Deferred?: No
GCSEs: 10 A*s, 2As (Eng. Lang/Lit)
AS Grades: AAAA(a)
A2 Prediction/Results: (predictions) A*A*A*A*A*
UKCAT (if applicable): 725 avg, SJT Band 1
BMAT (if applicable): 6.4, 6.3, 3.5A
Work Experience/Volunteering: As you can see below, I had very little/basically no volunteering!!!

3 weeks with Gap Medics in Tanzania (OPD, Internal and Ob/Gyn)
1 week in Haematology at St. George's Hospital, London1 week volunteering at nursing home1 week volunteering with disabled kids (HCPT pilgrimage to Lourdes)
Extra Curricular:Co-President of school's Medical societyCrest Silver award
Grade 8 Clarinet and piano and sing in school choir
Past editor of a science journal, written by students 12-18 (Young Scientists Journal)
Universities applied to and decisions:
University of Cambridge (Trinity Hall): Offer - A*AAE ===> Firm
UCL: Offer - AAA ====> Insurance
St. Andrews: Withdrawn
Edinburgh: Rejected
Bristol (Virology and Immunology): AAB =====> Declined

http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?t=865511&page=32 this is the link to the thread with all these posts.

http://www.kcl.ac.uk/study/ug/admissions/language/InternationalEntry.aspx#USA

This is just a sample link for King's which I know has accepted internationals. Their requirements are basically 3 5's on APs in relevant subjects or SAT II 650+ so for you probably Bio, Chem and something else and a 1950+ on SAT. You can see they don't look at all at your GPA. But just meeting the requirements isn't really good enough of course especially for medicine. So aim for the highest.

Your research experience will help for sure as it will probably pretty unique among applicants. Make sure though that you have some sort of community service, I can't see it possible to get in without some sort of community work even if its just a few weeks.

 

[makeitbrahs]

Wow, that's scary. Some of those guys have crazy extracurriculars. The numbers required are a bit skewed though; 650+ is far easier than getting a 5 on the AP. It's closer to getting a low 4.

I only have a 5 in AP Chemistry (two 4's in Language and European History). Think I should just ride out the SAT then?

I've also been told that the application is due Oct. 15, though the (King's) site doesn't give a specific date for internationals.

It is important to be aware that applications must be submitted a full year before the October in which you hope to start your course at King's. So it is already too late to apply for October 2014 entry, and you must wait until the second half of September/early October 2014 to apply for October 2015 entry (or for deferred entry in October 2016).

That's going to hurt me, since the earliest SAT test dates are in October... would they allow me to update my SAT scores? (I'm in this situation and asking because the US doesn't require finalized test scores until January. You submit your application with your initial score, and then retake the test to update the score. Otherwise, this kind of screwed me over.)

I can't see where you can take a UKCAT in the US. I'm looking on google, but I just get MCAT comparisons. I also hear about the BMAT; could you explain? Do I need to take it? (I may be a bit late on that though since standardized tests start in October)

My god... I'm so scared.

The posts on that link vary so much, I honestly cannot tell if I will get in at all. I've worked, interned, and even researched at a college, but none of them were medical based (it's difficult to find shadowing opportunities here. Most places don't even allow high schoolers in.) Will that hurt me?


What's with this gap year business? Taking a year off to boost your grades up? They say Bristol prefers gap year students.

Alright... breathe... ahh... thinking about this is nerve wracking. Some of these applicants that got in don't really have strong extracurricular activities. I mean, some guys post shadowing for 2 days at a time!

Would posting to the "What are my chances?" SDN forum help? Or are those guys mainly concerned about US students?


Once again thank you so much.

 

[makeitbrahs]

I'm looking more into this, and the traditional (in US) route as well as overseas seem like solid choices. Do you agree? Running around as a PreMed within the US.

Of course, that would call into the question of: Do what schools you go to affect your Med School chances (Other than obvious ones like Ivy League) and How could I get financial support (My parents make too much for needbased, but not enough to completely pay for college)?

My other "safety" zone would be engineering, since I'm solid in the Math and Sciences.

🙁 Now I'm just a lost high schooler again...

 

[NotAProgDirector]

I'm going to point out what I think is obvious: You're 17 and your thoughts about what you might want when you're 27 may change quite a bit. You say you'd like to work in Canada, Australia, or Western Europe. In Canada and Australia, if you're not a citizen, it's not so easy to be a physician there. In general, you're better off doing your training where you think you'll practice. If you go down this road, you may ultimately find that your US options are limited. Overall, if you were my kid, I'd be telling you that this plan is foolish, that you're painting yourself into a corner. A US medical school, if you can get into one, opens the most doors. Consider a 7 year combined BS/MD program if you'd like. Yes, they can be expensive, but shortcuts tend to backfire. My 2 cents.

 

[Medstart108]

I'm looking more into this, and the traditional (in US) route as well as overseas seem like solid choices. Do you agree? Running around as a PreMed within the US.

Of course, that would call into the question of: Do what schools you go to affect your Med School chances (Other than obvious ones like Ivy League) and How could I get financial support (My parents make too much for needbased, but not enough to completely pay for college)?

My other "safety" zone would be engineering, since I'm solid in the Math and Sciences.

🙁 Now I'm just a lost high schooler again...

I agree with what aProgDirector said. If you aren't sure you want the UK its something you really should think about. There are BS/MD programs in the US which you can apply to and you can always take a much more traditional tried and true path of doing a BS followed by applying for an MD.

All the info for the test center locations is here http://www.ukcat.ac.uk/about-the-test/locations/. They definitely have test center locations since its an online test, its probably offered wherever the MCAT/USMLE is offered sort of thing.

I never took the BMAT http://www.admissionstestingservice.org/find-a-centre/, but its a biology/chemistry focused test that Oxbridge, UCL, Imperial and one other school require. In my honest opinion, its not worth taking because #1 you are going to have to prepare for it #2 Not many schools use it and Oxbridge for example barely accept internationals #3 if you are going to apply to the UK there are a lot of different things you have to do, there is no sense in adding more stress in such little time.

About the SAT stuff, I'm pretty sure you can write it and update your score after the fact. I would let the schools know. Generally, interviews are held sometime in January or December so the sooner you get the better. About the AP vs SAT II thing I understand completely, I find it odd myself I would say a 700+= 5 rather than 650+. KCL is just an example you don't have to apply there. You are only allowed to choose 4 medical schools to apply to each year so you have plenty of options.

Posting what are your chances definitely won't help. Even posting it on the UK forum won't do you too much good. It isn't very common for a US student to apply to the UK for medical school and you probably won't find people who know what constitutes "good chances".

Think about it some more, its a lot of information i'm dumping on you right now. Think about BS/MD programs although generally I recommend just doing a traditional pre-med degree. I would really only consider the UK if you are certain you want to practice in the UK.

 

[makeitbrahs]

Alright, thank you guys for your help. Yeah, I understand that what I may want to do may change in a decade, but I always commit myself to finishing. That's why I'm trying to gather as much information as possible before deciding on what to do.

How come you think traditional would be better? The reason why I don't want to go traditional is because I have many college friends who are PreMed and Med school and they constantly complain about the debt/costs.

Is the undergrad college you get into that important? Of course someone from Harvard may have a better chance than someone from a state university, but is the difference significant?

I may just go the traditional US route.

Edit:
So I've been reading "Cal Newport - How to become a Straight A Student" (I saw it recommended in the hSDN forum) and this came up:

For convenience, I'm going to bold the relevant part. The rest is just for context.

Here’s a surprising fact: Most straight-A students don’t think “studying” is a big deal. They realize that the bulk of the work required to ace an exam has already been accomplished through identifying big ideas in lectures, extracting arguments from reading assignments, and solving problem sets. By the time the test date rolls around, all that’s left is a targeted review of the ideas that they have already mastered and internalized. Students who pull sleepless study marathons, on the other hand, are spending most of their time trying to learn from scratch the ideas that they could have been internalizing, bit by bit, as the term progressed. So forget the conventional wisdom that more studying equals better grades. Smart students understand that if you’re studying hard, then you’ve done something wrong. Preparing for a test should not be painful. And it should not require a lot of time.

Doesn't preparing for the SAT and MCAT require lots of time? I mean, I'm using this book to help study for the SAT and I don't see how I could get past just... not studying.

Of course, this is taken somewhat out of context; the author is talking about college classes and therefore the lectures to augment them. Therefore, how would I apply his strategies to my SAT studying?

(I pulled a 4.0 unweighted gpa this year, so the in-class stuff I'm getting. Just this extra SAT boost is troublesome... I've been stalled out on the same score for a bit.)

 

[Medstart108]

Alright, thank you guys for your help. Yeah, I understand that what I may want to do may change in a decade, but I always commit myself to finishing. That's why I'm trying to gather as much information as possible before deciding on what to do.

How come you think traditional would be better? The reason why I don't want to go traditional is because I have many college friends who are PreMed and Med school and they constantly complain about the debt/costs.

Is the undergrad college you get into that important? Of course someone from Harvard may have a better chance than someone from a state university, but is the difference significant?

I may just go the traditional US route.

Edit:
So I've been reading "Cal Newport - How to become a Straight A Student" (I saw it recommended in the hSDN forum) and this came up:

For convenience, I'm going to bold the relevant part. The rest is just for context.


Doesn't preparing for the SAT and MCAT require lots of time? I mean, I'm using this book to help study for the SAT and I don't see how I could get past just... not studying.

Of course, this is taken somewhat out of context; the author is talking about college classes and therefore the lectures to augment them. Therefore, how would I apply his strategies to my SAT studying?

(I pulled a 4.0 unweighted gpa this year, so the in-class stuff I'm getting. Just this extra SAT boost is troublesome... I've been stalled out on the same score for a bit.)

Of course they are complaining about the debt, but its not cheap in the UK for internationals either. So either route will likely leave you in debt although depending on which schools you choose the US may be more than the UK.

Preparing for SAT and MCAT requires dedicated studying. The article is just trying to say you the straight A students spread the work out over the term so the final "cram time" isn't as bad whereas the B students don't do enough during term and cram like crazy at the end and don't do well. Its just a matter of procrastination, you still need to put in the time its just better to spread it out.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Please listen to aPD.

People change and life changes.

The boards are full of physicians who trained outside of the US who are unable to secure any employment opportunities in US medicine when they move here. There's a reason why you hear about foreign physicians driving cabs.

You may change your mind, your may find you need to move back to the US for family, personal or financial reasons. Expect to have to repeat your residency training here if you want to work in the US and even then, there are no guarantees you'll get into US training.

A US medical degree is expensive, there is no doubt, but as noted above, a degree for a foreign national is not cheap. You are not going to be charged the same rate as UK citizens. In general, training in the US opens more doors worldwide than does training outside it.

Finally, I think you misunderstand the length of training outside of the US. While medical school can be started immediately after high school, the length of specialty training often exceeds that of the US. In many cases, especially for non-GP specialties, you are older than your US counterparts (despite "skipping" college) when you are finally ready to be an attending/consultant.

 

[makeitbrahs]

Alright, I'll stay within the borders then.

I know that UK takes a long time.

For the record, in the U.K., a prospective cardiologist should expect to train full-time for

6 years for a standard secondary-school-entry MBBS
2 years for Foundation Year 1 and Foundation Year 2
2 years Core Medical Training (CMT) (or 2-3 years Acute Care Common Stem in Acute Medicine (ACCS-AM))
5 years specialty training in cardiology

Thank you guys for your help! I suppose I'll look into the hSDN or PreMed forums for good college choices.

 

[Winged Scapula]

I know that UK takes a long time.

Ok - in your first post you state, "I don't want to spend 10 years…"; I just wanted to point out that you would be spending 10 + years in training regardless of what country you go to (for most specialties).

 

[makeitbrahs]

Ok - in your first post you state, "I don't want to spend 10 years…"; I just wanted to point out that you would be spending 10 + years in training regardless of what country you go to (for most specialties).

Alrighty. In my first post, I also discounted the UK due to the length of training there. I thought they had an undergraduate program because it took so long there.


Anywho, thanks again for your help! Just studying my little SAT all day now haha

 

[Winged Scapula]

Alrighty. In my first post, I also discounted the UK due to the length of training there. I thought they had an undergraduate program because it took so long there.


Anywho, thanks again for your help! Just studying my little SAT all day now haha

Perhaps I should clarify.

Commonwealth countries (and perhaps others; I am not familiar with post-medical school training programs in other countries) tend to have longer post medical school training schemes for a variety of reasons, so its not just the UK (I should have clarified before, because this includes Australia). One reason that is commonly given is that medical school in these countries tends to be a lot less "hands-on" with students having a lot less responsibility and less training in the basic sciences - it is felt that these will be obtained during "residency" training. Thus, you add in the Foundation Years and then the lengthier training, in addition to the "uncertainty" of advancement in training (i.e., you aren't assured of moving to the next level of training; the US is much more standardized in this respect), and you end up spending a lot of time training for something that has limited usefulness outside of the country you trained in.

FYI: the UK does have undergraduate programs, its just that those that tend to accept internationals are post graduate. Most Commonwealth countries have been moving toward the "American" style of medical education the last 20 years.

Now get back to studying!

 

[Medstart108]

Perhaps I should clarify.

Commonwealth countries (and perhaps others; I am not familiar with post-medical school training programs in other countries) tend to have longer post medical school training schemes for a variety of reasons, so its not just the UK (I should have clarified before, because this includes Australia). One reason that is commonly given is that medical school in these countries tends to be a lot less "hands-on" with students having a lot less responsibility and less training in the basic sciences - it is felt that these will be obtained during "residency" training. Thus, you add in the Foundation Years and then the lengthier training, in addition to the "uncertainty" of advancement in training (i.e., you aren't assured of moving to the next level of training; the US is much more standardized in this respect), and you end up spending a lot of time training for something that has limited usefulness outside of the country you trained in.

FYI: the UK does have undergraduate programs, its just that those that tend to accept internationals are post graduate. Most Commonwealth countries have been moving toward the "American" style of medical education the last 20 years.

Now get back to studying!

Actually they do accept a lot of internationals and mostly as undergrads. The UK hasn't changed much, they do have graduate entry medicine programs but they actually have very few spots. Australia is more like how you described it, but the UK is still very much undergrad focused.

The main reason why training in the UK is so long is because they work less hours. In the UK they usually only work around 60 hours a week and pay as a senior registrar is generally better than pay as a senior resident, but like I may have said this reverses dramatically when it comes to consultant vs attending.

 

[Danbo1957]

The UK has adopted the 48 hour work week for residents as the norm, following Europe (56 hours per week used to be the weekly maximum in the UK). A first hand account of the differences between the US model and that of the UK:

http://www.ijms.info/ojs/index.php/IJMS/article/view/13/html_20#.U8snDrkg_Z4

 

[Medstart108]

The UK has adopted the 48 hour work week for residents as the norm, following Europe (56 hours per week used to be the weekly maximum in the UK). A first hand account of the differences between the US model and that of the UK:

http://www.ijms.info/ojs/index.php/IJMS/article/view/13/html_20#.U8snDrkg_Z4

I think because its stretched out over a period of time, residents do and will work 60 hour weeks, but work less on others. Either way, residency programs have tried to find ways of circumventing the rules including calling part of the residents work "education" rather than "work" in order to make them work longer hours. This is what I heard, not through 1st hand experience.