MBBS = MD = DO?

[meliora27]

First, I really hope this doesn't turn into an MD vs. DO thread

I was talking to a doc recently who was a foreign grad (MBBS) but his name tag said MD. I learned that MBBS holders can use the equivalent MD degree if they choose. In fact, the state of NY can confer the MD to MBBS degree holders from foreign university's.

Proof: http://www.op.nysed.gov/prof/med/med-mdconferral.htm

I was wondering what would prevent the state of NY (short of the lobbying power of the AOA et. al.) from adopting a similar policy for DO's if they or some other stakeholder were so inclined to lobby them. I think most of us in 2014 would agree for the most part MD = DO, I was more curious to have learned this than anything else.

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[D4C]

First, I really hope this doesn't turn into an MD vs. DO thread

I was talking to a doc recently who was a foreign grad (MBBS) but his name tag said MD. I learned that MBBS holders can use the equivalent MD degree if they choose. In fact, the state of NY can confer the MD to MBBS degree holders from foreign university's.

Proof: http://www.op.nysed.gov/prof/med/med-mdconferral.htm

I was wondering what would prevent the state of NY (short of the lobbying power of the AOA et. al.) from adopting a similar policy for DO's if they or some other stakeholder were so inclined to lobby them. I think most of us in 2014 would agree for the most part MD = DO, I was more curious to have learned this than anything else.

This happened in Cali in the 60s I think. Might happen again, but who really knows?

 

[hallowmann]

This happened in Cali in the 60s I think. Might happen again, but who really knows?

...yeah... this'll be popular 🙄

in before it becomes MD vs. MDO vs. MD, DO vs. DO

 

[BurghStudent]

...yeah... this'll be popular 🙄

in before it becomes MD vs. MDO vs. MD, DO vs. DO

Lol, DO vs DO

 

[SuckySurgeon7]

Lol, DO vs DO

I think he's comparing "MD" with "MDO" with "MD/DO" with "DO".

As far as what happened in the sixties with the D.O.'s, that was largely political. To avoid being denied the right to practice by the state's medical board, the D.O.'s of California chose to 'earn' M.D. degrees in short workshops.

Personally, the only reason I could see for changing the degree is because the public largely doesn't know what a D.O. actually does differently from an M.D. And in many cases, they're misunderstandings are legitimate: there's no difference whatsoever. (Pathologists with OMM skills?)

 

[wjs010]

I think he's comparing "MD" with "MDO" with "MD/DO" with "DO".

As far as what happened in the sixties with the D.O.'s, that was largely political. To avoid being denied the right to practice by the state's medical board, the D.O.'s of California chose to 'earn' M.D. degrees in short workshops.

Personally, the only reason I could see for changing the degree is because the public largely doesn't know what a D.O. actually does differently from an M.D. And in many cases, they're misunderstandings are legitimate: there's no difference whatsoever. (Pathologists with OMM skills?)

Well the pathologist would just use layer by layer palpation to diagnose, instead of using a microscope. Lol

 

[hallowmann]

Well the pathologist would just use layer by layer palpation to diagnose, instead of using a microscope. Lol

They'll take a hollistic approach, so first they'll start just looking at the slide as a whole with the naked eye then gradually move to the lowest power field... yeah... I can't make that work.

In fairness, I actually think DO philosophies can be implemented in most different fields to improve patient care, and in some cases some MDs don't get as much teaching in this regard, but this is really variable, because apparently some DO schools do a terrible job of teaching this and many MD schools do a much better job of teaching similar philosophies. So... I guess what I'm saying is... the difference is more school-to-school than DO-to-MD.

 

[Mehd School]

Honestly I think it's a little sketch that MBBS can list as an MD. They're "equivalent" degrees, but then again the AOA claims that DO and MD are equivalent degrees. One of the hospitals I worked with made MBBS physicians keep that title, and it confused a lot of patients. Sounds familiar.

 

[hallowmann]

Honestly I think it's a little sketch that MBBS can list as an MD. They're "equivalent" degrees, but then again the AOA claims that DO and MD are equivalent degrees. One of the hospitals I worked with made MBBS physicians keep that title, and it confused a lot of patients. Sounds familiar.

I think it makes sense. There's MBBS, MBChB, BMBS, MBBCh, etc. depending on where you are coming from. These degrees are the foreign equivalents of US MD degrees (there are no MD degrees in those countries, these are the only "medical degrees"). To have all of them write different things on their coats will just cause confusion among not only patients, but staff.

The DO degree as a medical degree only exists in the US. While it may be equivalent in terms of practice rights, it is not the "same" degree as an MD. If you find this annoying, complain to AT Still who was initially offered a charter for ASO (now KCOM) to award the M.D. degree and rejected it in favor of a D.O. (Diplomat of Osteopathy) degree in 1892.

 

[Mehd School]

I think it makes sense. There's MBBS, MBChB, BMBS, MBBCh, etc. depending on where you are coming from. These degrees are the foreign equivalents of US MD degrees (there are no MD degrees in those countries, these are the only "medical degrees"). To have all of them write different things on their coats will just cause confusion among not only patients, but staff.

The DO degree as a medical degree only exists in the US. While it may be equivalent in terms of practice rights, it is not the "same" degree as an MD. If you find this annoying, complain to AT Still who was initially offered a charter for ASO (now KCOM) to award the M.D. degree and rejected it in favor of a D.O. (Diplomat of Osteopathy) degree in 1892.

I guess I can see your point. Time to find that AT Still guy and yell at him through the inter webs.

 

[hallowmann]

I guess I can see your point. Time to find that AT Still guy and yell at him through the inter webs.

I know, right? Who does that guy think he is?

 

[Mass Effect]

I think it makes sense. There's MBBS, MBChB, BMBS, MBBCh, etc. depending on where you are coming from. These degrees are the foreign equivalents of US MD degrees (there are no MD degrees in those countries, these are the only "medical degrees"). To have all of them write different things on their coats will just cause confusion among not only patients, but staff.

The DO degree as a medical degree only exists in the US. While it may be equivalent in terms of practice rights, it is not the "same" degree as an MD. If you find this annoying, complain to AT Still who was initially offered a charter for ASO (now KCOM) to award the M.D. degree and rejected it in favor of a D.O. (Diplomat of Osteopathy) degree in 1892.

Not sure what you mean. They're both medical doctors, they both treat the same disorders, they both follow the same treatment protocols. Yes, DOs have some extra training in OMM, but overall, they're the same in so much that an MBBS, MBChB, etc. are the same. Don't forget that OMM training is open to MDs as well. They don't change their degree because of the extra knowledge.

 

[hallowmann]

Not sure what you mean. They're both medical doctors, they both treat the same disorders, they both follow the same treatment protocols. Yes, DOs have some extra training in OMM, but overall, they're the same in so much that an MBBS, MBChB, etc. are the same. Don't forget that OMM training is open to MDs as well. They don't change their degree because of the extra knowledge.

Your school defines your degree. MD is a generic term for a traditional medicine degree (the same thing an MBBS, MBChB, etc. is). An osteopathic medical school and degree is by definition different than that. The difference is that in those countries, those degrees mean literally the same thing as an MD degree, whereas in this country a DO degree is actually different than an MD, regardless of the overlap.

Sure, their jobs are essentially the same, but that's not what defines your degree. You're not going to say a Psychologist should go by Ph.D. if they're a Psy.D. just because they work in the same job/capacity.

 

[Mass Effect]

Your school defines your degree. MD is a generic term for a traditional medicine degree (the same thing an MBBS, MBChB, etc. is). An osteopathic medical school and degree is by definition different than that. The difference is that in those countries, those degrees mean literally the same thing as an MD degree, whereas in this country a DO degree is actually different than an MD, regardless of the overlap.

Sure, their jobs are essentially the same, but that's not what defines your degree. You're not going to say a Psychologist should go by Ph.D. if they're a Psy.D. just because they work in the same job/capacity.

A Psy.D. and a PhD. receive different training and fulfill different requirements. One is a research/academic pathway and one is a clinical pathway. An MD and DO are trained identically the same, with the exception of one extra requirement by DO schools. If a DO is the same as an MD, as has been said by DO groups for decades, then continuing to advocate differentiating it in a clinical setting is short-sighted and serves to only muddy the line between a medical doctor and a doctor of nurse practitioner, doctor of physician assistant studies, doctor of physical therapy, etc. There's just no need for it. Recognize the OMM part of the training with extra letters, but the title itself should be MD. I realize it won't be and that's fine, but the argument I'm making is that the argument for it not to be is rather silly, in my opinion.

 

[hallowmann]

A Psy.D. and a PhD. receive different training and fulfill different requirements. One is a research/academic pathway and one is a clinical pathway. An MD and DO are trained identically the same, with the exception of one extra requirement by DO schools. If a DO is the same as an MD, as has been said by DO groups for decades, then continuing to advocate differentiating it in a clinical setting is short-sighted and serves to only muddy the line between a medical doctor and a doctor of nurse practitioner, doctor of physician assistant studies, doctor of physical therapy, etc. There's just no need for it. Recognize the OMM part of the training with extra letters, but the title itself should be MD. I realize it won't be and that's fine, but the argument I'm making is that the argument for it not to be is rather silly, in my opinion.

Both a PsyD and PhD can function the same capacity (academically or clinically - even though they fulfill different requirements - kind of like a DO school fulfills different requirements than an MD school, e.g. hours of OMM/OPP and COMLEX), but let's leave that for a second... How about DMD and DDS? Same requirements, different degrees.

In any case, regardless of how much some people wish it to be so, the degrees are different. Graduates may function in the same capacity, but they are different degrees. That doesn't make one objectively "better" (regardless of what people subjectively think), its just the way it is. By the definition and mission of DO schools, OMT isn't the only difference. OPP is meant to incorporate a different way of approaching the patient among other things. Now whether or not that actually occurs is besides the point. The point is that the degrees are by definition different.

Now if we want to say enough has changed that they are essentially equivalent, then DO schools can change their charter. Until that happens, they are still different degrees. To want to claim we are just like MBBS's and paste on a MD when we've gone to X-College of Osteopathic Medicine, is honestly a bit sad to me.

 

[Mass Effect]

We'll just have to agree to disagree. When you work in a hospital where everyone is called doctor, whether or not they're a medical doctor, I think an argument for standardization is not only valid but necessary. What I think is sad is attempts to shame people who feel differently based on their experience just because they have a different of point of view. But like I said, I don't expect anything to change and that includes these debates on SDN.

Que sera.

 

[hallowmann]

We'll just have to agree to disagree. When you work in a hospital where everyone is called doctor, whether or not they're a medical doctor, I think an argument for standardization is not only valid but necessary. What I think is sad is attempts to shame people who feel differently based on their experience just because they have a different of point of view. But like I said, I don't expect anything to change and that includes these debates on SDN.

Que sera.

To be clear, I'm all for uniting the degrees if that's where things are headed. I'm also all for getting rid of the COMLEX and making a separate OMM a subject-test. I agree the degrees are so similar now that it doesn't necessarily make sense to keep them separate.

That said, I'm not for changing our degree to something like MDO, just so we can hide our DO-ness or convince the world we are just like MDs.

In any case, my argument wasn't one of "experience" or "standardization", simply one of semantic definitions.

Also, I'm sorry if you felt I was shaming people. I don't think I was, but obviously if you took it differently, I'm probably in the wrong, and I'm sorry for that. If anything I want people to be proud of where they go/went. You guys are doctors. You don't have to explain to the world that your degree is equal to an MD.

 

[Mass Effect]

No need to apologize. Just a difference of opinion. 🙂

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

AOA will never lobby for this as they would be shooting themselves on the foot by making themselves even closer to not matter. DOs outside the AOA would never lobby for this as they would be busier making money and not caring about petty titles.

 

[NurWollen]

To be clear, I'm all for uniting the degrees if that's where things are headed. I'm also all for getting rid of the COMLEX and making a separate OMM a subject-test. I agree the degrees are so similar now that it doesn't necessarily make sense to keep them separate.

That said, I'm not for changing our degree to something like MDO, just so we can hide our DO-ness or convince the world we are just like MDs.

In any case, my argument wasn't one of "experience" or "standardization", simply one of semantic definitions.

Also, I'm sorry if you felt I was shaming people. I don't think I was, but obviously if you took it differently, I'm probably in the wrong, and I'm sorry for that. If anything I want people to be proud of where they go/went. You guys are doctors. You don't have to explain to the world that your degree is equal to an MD.

What you said. I'll be the first to say there are drawbacks to the way things are done in the DO world- Cranial, rapid school expansion, ridiculous tuition, and so on. But I'll be proud to wear "Nur Wollen, DO" on my white coat. I don't plan on hiding it by putting "Dr. Nur Wollen" like some DOs allegedly do. I'm proud of the degree i'll have worked my tail off to earn.

 

[BurghStudent]

What about making the DO to MD switch optional? It doesn't have to be across the board for every DO.

 

[meliora27]

I know that the AOA passed a resolution a few years ago that re-affirmed the DO degree as the title, however I wonder what the result would be if a survey was given to today and looked at responses to the question of whether they would prefer to use the MD from different groups such as current DO students, DO residents/fellows, DO attendings who graduated in the last 20 years and DO attendings who graduated over 20+ years ago.

 

[nowanmd]

There were many DOs in my IM residency- all great docs. I think the AOA should have a publicity campaign explaining to the public that DOs are real doctors with extra training- they can do it in magazines (like AARP) I think in a short period of time the public would be educated and the perception would truly be that DO=MD

 

[meliora27]

Or try to get a DO written into some show like Grey's Anatomy (is it even still on). I'm sure it would reach quite a few households... I think the AOA has done a pretty weak job in the PR department.

 

[Osteotastic]

After some time considering this whole degree debate issue. I believe that this is the best and most practical option.
Many states do allow MBBS to use MD. If enough DOs were able to lobby starting in states states that allow this option for MBBS, they should be able to successfully argue for this option, especially with merger of graduate training. This would also allow those who want to continue using the designation DO that option, but there is no reason to make the rest of us who don't want to use it, use it. For me, it has become a fact of matter issue in private practice that an MD would be more beneficial to my marketing. This is not a bias issue or liking one more than the other, after careful analysis and experience, it is just a plain fact.

 

[Doctor Bob]

But I'll be proud to wear "Nur Wollen, DO" on my white coat. I don't plan on hiding it by putting "Dr. Nur Wollen" like some DOs allegedly do.

My scrubs say "Dr. Bob Loblaw" (actual last name changed to protect the innocent)... but I also prefer to go by Dr. Bob at work so it's in keeping with the brand message.
Plus in the ER, patients don't care if I'm the janitor so long as I can get them their dilaudid.

Or try to get a DO written into some show like Grey's Anatomy (is it even still on). I'm sure it would reach quite a few households... I think the AOA has done a pretty weak job in the PR department.

The AOA or some sub-branch had a letter writing campaign to do this a bunch of years back... 2004-2005 or so. They gave these pre-printed postcards to all of the medical students, asked them to sign them, and then drop them in the mailbox. The postcards had a blurb about DOs and how it would be good to have them on TV, and the cards went to the producers of all the various TV medical shows of the time.
Suffice to say... I don't think it was very effective. Then again I don't watch medical shows on TV so I wouldn't know...

 

[meliora27]

For me, it has become a fact of matter issue in private practice that an MD would be more beneficial to my marketing. This is not a bias issue or liking one more than the other, after careful analysis and experience, it is just a plain fact.

It would be interesting to survey others in the same position to see if this is widespread. FWIW, this is not the first I have heard of this from private practice docs.

 

[BurghStudent]

How hard would it be for DOs to petition states to grant optional MD licenses? It seems like a no-brainer solution to the apparent DO identity situation. I'm not sure how much authority the AOA would have in such a development.

 

[Dharma]

I actually think DO philosophies can be implemented in most different fields to improve patient care, and in some cases some MDs don't get as much teaching in this regard, but this is really variable, because apparently some DO schools do a terrible job of teaching this and many MD schools do a much better job of teaching similar philosophies.

What?

 

[meliora27]

How hard would it be for DOs to petition states to grant optional MD licenses? It seems like a no-brainer solution to the apparent DO identity situation. I'm not sure how much authority the AOA would have in such a development.

On technical grounds, I'm sure they would require USMLE 1/2/3 & CE even if this were already possible.

If you go to medical school in Iowa or Iceland or Ireland and you want to practice medicine in the US, you have to take the USMLE. It seems like everyone who wants to practice in the US should have to take the same test. Funny how states don't require foreign grads to take the COMLEX to practice here...

 

[BurghStudent]

On technical grounds, I'm sure they would require USMLE 1/2/3 & CE even if this were already possible.

If you go to medical school in Iowa or Iceland or Ireland and you want to practice medicine in the US, you have to take the USMLE. It seems like everyone who wants to practice in the US should have to take the same test. Funny how states don't require foreign grads to take the COMLEX to practice here...

That's funny. I'm pretty sure a majority of DO students already take Step 1.

 

[hallowmann]

What?

I'm pretty sure they're a bot. They verbatim copied a piece of what I wrote in a post above (7th post in the thread)... except I actually explained what I meant in that post, and they didn't include that part.

 

[NeuroLAX]

I'm pretty sure they're a bot. They verbatim copied a piece of what I wrote in a post above (7th post in the thread)... except I actually explained what I meant in that post, and they didn't include that part.

I've never understood that... what is the point of creating an account just to copy and paste parts of another user's post?

 

[hallowmann]

I've never understood that... what is the point of creating an account just to copy and paste parts of another user's post?

Probably a way to gain "popularity"/"followers"/account stability so they can then spam the forums. Either that or some form of data mining.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

On technical grounds, I'm sure they would require USMLE 1/2/3 & CE even if this were already possible.

If you go to medical school in Iowa or Iceland or Ireland and you want to practice medicine in the US, you have to take the USMLE. It seems like everyone who wants to practice in the US should have to take the same test. Funny how states don't require foreign grads to take the COMLEX to practice here...

It's only MD residencies that have been open to foreign graduates, so why would the law require COMLEX?

 

[JimmyB123]

Unfortunately, MD=MBBS > DO

 

[Dharma]

Unfortunately, MD=MBBS > DO

OK...

 

[jaguar33]

Unfortunately, MD=MBBS > DO

How did you come to this profound conclusion? By reading SDN? By reading SDN posts from insecure premeds you are able to come to a conclusion that puts down a whole profession. There are some very sucessfull osteopathic physicians who have done very well for themselves and have accomplished great things through their own efforts.

 

[HoboCommander]

To be clear, I'm all for uniting the degrees if that's where things are headed. I'm also all for getting rid of the COMLEX and making a separate OMM a subject-test. I agree the degrees are so similar now that it doesn't necessarily make sense to keep them separate.

That said, I'm not for changing our degree to something like MDO, just so we can hide our DO-ness or convince the world we are just like MDs.

In any case, my argument wasn't one of "experience" or "standardization", simply one of semantic definitions.

Also, I'm sorry if you felt I was shaming people. I don't think I was, but obviously if you took it differently, I'm probably in the wrong, and I'm sorry for that. If anything I want people to be proud of where they go/went. You guys are doctors. You don't have to explain to the world that your degree is equal to an MD.

I think the solution is to use MD/DO in place of our DO degree. Hospitals often list us as MD even though we are DO, which is dishonest and feels like we are intentionally trying to hide something. But the DO title is confusing, so a middle ground (MD/DO) is best. We get rid of the COMLEX, everyone will take the same USMLE exams, and standardize the degrees as much as we can. MDs will become MD/DO and DOs will become DO/MD.

Having 2 separate and near-identical degrees only encourages NPs and PAs to say that they are physicians too. This encroaches on our territory and does affect our livelihoods. A standardized degree will protect us to some degree.

 

[meliora27]

How did you come to this profound conclusion? By reading SDN? By reading SDN posts from insecure premeds you are able to come to a conclusion that puts down a whole profession. There are some very sucessfull osteopathic physicians who have done very well for themselves and have accomplished great things through their own efforts.

What's explanation would you offer up to explain residency programs that will interview/rank/match MBBS' but will not even offer interviews to DO's?

What explanation would you offer to explain programs who go so far as to state on the website they will not accept applications from DO's?

 

[Dharma]

What's explanation would you offer up to explain residency programs that will interview/rank/match MBBS' but will not even offer interviews to DO's?

What explanation would you offer to explain programs who go so far as to state on the website they will not accept applications from DO's?

What would you say if someone told you that you're annoying?

BTW that's rhetorical.

 

[jaguar33]

What's explanation would you offer up to explain residency programs that will interview/rank/match MBBS' but will not even offer interviews to DO's?

What explanation would you offer to explain programs who go so far as to state on the website they will not accept applications from DO's?

Considering the MBBS degree is the medical degree for ~47 different countries medical schools, I would say there are a whole lot more than the graduates of DO schools. The ones matching at the top academic programs most likely went to top notch schools in their countries and have excellent research, resumes and experiences. I would imagine the few DO's who have matched at top places have tons of research just like the PM&R chair at MGH, a DO, has over 300 published papers, abstracts and book chapters. That is only one example, but my point there that people who desire to go into academic medicine at the well known academic centers would most likely need to be heavily involved in research, just like everyone else trying to get the spot. People who go DO typically aren't trying to be research powerhouses or they would have went to a research heavy medical school. That being said I think it is fair that we don't get those spots if they don't have the amazing research backgrounds like other applicants, or if they knew they wanted to train there and still went DO. It doesn't mean that DO's cant do research, prove themselves and get to where they want to be if they desire to do academic medicine. If you read the bio's of DO's at big name hospitals, they deserve to be there. My point before was that many DO's have gotten to where they desire and it may not be academic medicine at a prestigious hospital. The letters after your name don't make you. By your logic I suppose you think that all the MD's who worked under the army surgeon general in 2000 shouldn't have listened to him because they were superior. Or a foreign MBBS or a MD working with a DO at a regional hospital should raise their noses to him because he is a DO surgeon who trained in a community program. People have different goals in life so you cant judge a whole profession on the number of DO residents at big name places.

 

[NurWollen]

What's explanation would you offer up to explain residency programs that will interview/rank/match MBBS' but will not even offer interviews to DO's?

What explanation would you offer to explain programs who go so far as to state on the website they will not accept applications from DO's?

What's explanation would you offer up to explain residency programs that will interview/rank/match DOs' but will not even offer interviews to MBBS's?

What explanation would you offer to explain programs who go so far as to state on the website they will not accept applications from MBBS's?

 

[Jamie561]

What's explanation would you offer up to explain residency programs that will interview/rank/match DOs' but will not even offer interviews to MBBS's?

What explanation would you offer to explain programs who go so far as to state on the website they will not accept applications from MBBS's?

What would you say if someone told you that you're annoying?

BTW that's rhetorical.

 

[Osteotastic]

RE: "For me, it has become a fact of matter issue in private practice that an MD would be more beneficial to my marketing. This is not a bias issue or liking one more than the other, after careful analysis and experience, it is just a plain fact."

It would be interesting to survey others in the same position to see if this is widespread. FWIW, this is not the first I have heard of this from private practice docs.

Too often unfortunately. Not a marketing plus.

 

[NurWollen]

What would you say if someone told you that you're annoying?

BTW that's rhetorical.

I'm just saying they exist, just as truly as the opposite bias also exists.

 

[Osteotastic]

I think the solution is to use MD/DO in place of our DO degree. Hospitals often list us as MD even though we are DO, which is dishonest and feels like we are intentionally trying to hide something. But the DO title is confusing, so a middle ground (MD/DO) is best. We get rid of the COMLEX, everyone will take the same USMLE exams, and standardize the degrees as much as we can. MDs will become MD/DO and DOs will become DO/MD.

Having 2 separate and near-identical degrees only encourages NPs and PAs to say that they are physicians too. This encroaches on our territory and does affect our livelihoods. A standardized degree will protect us to some degree.

I think trying to go the route of the MBBS for now is the most straight forward answer until a uniform change occurs. It likely will occur at some point but who knows when. In the mean time if a foreign MBBS is considered qualified and equivalent enough to use MD, US trained DO should definitely be considered so as well. I also like this solution because it kind of gets rid of the "debate". It allows those who want to change change and lets the die hard DOs keep the DO.

I agree with your point about NPs and PAs however.

 

[JoBreeze]

MDs will become MD/DO and DOs will become DO/MD.

No thanks, I'll just keep it MD.

I ain't no bone doc.

 

[NurWollen]

No thanks, I'll just keep it MD.

I ain't no bone doc.

Lol. How about orthopods become DOs, and all the rest become MDs.




j/k

 

[evilbooyaa]

The AOA leadership would never go for the name change, even if it was voluntary (because they know a good # of DOs would immediately switch to MD, weakening the AOA's bargaining power with the ACGME)

If you're skeptical, just ask the leadership about it.