MCAT is correlated to Step 1 scores.

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Lawper said:
I really feel bad for MD/PhD students. From the way Step 1 score creep is accelerating, their competitive Step 1 scores taken at end of M2 may actually become significantly less competitive (or worse, below average!) by the time they apply for residency ~5-6 years later.
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The scale gets reset every once in a while I think, but I don't know where I got this notion from so it might be completely fictional.

Major procrastinator said:
considering havards average is a 240, a 232 is not bad.
you premeds have no idea what your talking about, welcome to the real world when your are no longer obnxious dinguses.
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Simmer down. To your first point, that's like saying because Harvard's average is 36, a 31 is not bad; besides nobody said your score is bad, captain shoulder chip

Major procrastinator said:
when it comes to USA and canadian grads 229 +/- 20 is the mean. if you take into account all students that take step 1 it drops significantly. a 232 is in the 76th percentile overall.
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So you agree it's only a bit above average, unless you decide your peers also include Caribbean students
 
libertyyne said:
The largest piece of his argument that is problematic imho is that he asserts that a "better residency" placement will lead to higher paying job in the same specialty. There are plenty of MGH trained Family practice doctors that I am willing to bet that do not make more then their peers that were trained in family practice elsewhere. Medicare, and private payors do not have a modifier for "better residency" when reimbursing physicians for the same service. Most jobs dont care where you went to residency as long as you are board certified.
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Oh, I agree. Geography does play a major role in compensation and many of the top med school graduates do end up in academic medicine which is in areas that are already saturated with doctors. But at the same time, I would be more interested in measuring what percentage of a particular residency's graduates end up in their first choice position after residency. So the question would transform into: does a better residency allow its graduates to attain their first-choice positions as opposed to not-so-good residencies? That would get rid of the "best pay = best job" factor.

libertyyne said:
The second confounder is that people going to top medical schools are more likely to have on average higher mcat scores compared to mcat scores on average of matriculants else where. There is no surprise that these folks are more likely to have higher board scores leading to better specialty placement. Then how do you tease apart the placement / matchlist discrepancies?
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Of course - we've seen the same things in undergraduate education and it's been impossible to tease these apart because we cannot create parallel universes. We can only do the best we can. But it's also important to keep in mind that just because we can't measure something doesn't mean that the effect or phenomenon doesn't exist.
 
libertyyne said:
I dont know why you are getting offended.
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Except the test taking pools are completely different.
 
RogueUnicorn said:
The scale gets reset every once in a while I think, but I don't know where I got this notion from so it might be completely fictional.


Simmer down. To your first point, that's like saying because Harvard's average is 36, a 31 is not bad; besides nobody said your score is bad, captain shoulder chip


So you agree it's only a bit above average, unless you decide your peers also include Caribbean students
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my peers include all doctors around the world that took step 1, do you think your better? why? because americas healthcare is ranked around 30 in the world? I believe everyone plays a part in residency applications so they all matter


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Major procrastinator said:
my peers include all doctors around the world that took step 1, do you think your better? why? because americas healthcare is ranked around 30 in the world? I believe everyone plays a part in residency applications so they all matter


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the different between a 232 and 240 is not the same as 31 to a 36


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anyway, I am going to excuse myself from this topic. I don't know why I am getting involved with you guys. Take care and good luck.


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Major procrastinator said:
my peers include all doctors around the world that took step 1, do you think your better? why? because americas healthcare is ranked around 30 in the world? I believe everyone plays a part in residency applications so they all matter
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With the obvious understanding that not everyone who takes Step 1 becomes a doctor, yea somehow I have this crazy notion that an average US medical student is judged against US medical students. Again if you choose to view yourself as a Caribbean equivalent (maybe you in fact are Carib) then be my guest.

And yes, I actually do not only think but know that I'm better.

Major procrastinator said:
the different between a 232 and 240 is not the same as 31 to a 36
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Make up whatever difference that become their equivalents, it's to illustrate a point about percentiles and scales not an absolute equivalence
 
RogueUnicorn said:
With the obvious understanding that not everyone who takes Step 1 becomes a doctor, yea somehow I have this crazy notion that an average US medical student is judged against US medical students. Again if you choose to view yourself as a Caribbean equivalent (maybe you in fact are Carib) then be my guest.

And yes, I actually do not only think but know that I'm better.

Make up whatever difference that become their equivalents, it's to illustrate a point about percentiles and scales not an absolute equivalence
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Im not a carib, and good for you. With your attitude I would never want you as my doctor. Your equal to every being in this world, like it or not. Bye, grow up.


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Major procrastinator said:
Im not a carib, and good for you. With your attitude I would never want you as my doctor. Your equal to every being in this world, like it or not. Bye, grow up.
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At least I actually am a doctor. Thanks for the life lesson Mr. Average, sorry to hurt your pride with statistical facts.
 
cactusman said:
Yes, but 232 and 500 are both around 50th percentile but the average MCAT for people taking the USMLE is around 508, so distributions are skewed.
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There is no evidence for that, people all around the world take the step including Caribbean and DO students.
 
libertyyne said:
I dont know why you are getting offended.
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Just want to point out that is for step 2 CK, but yes your point about percentiles is spot on.

RogueUnicorn said:
To get back to the topic at hand in general though, no premed should concern him/herself with this correlation, there's literally nothing you can/should do about it
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Agree, population statistics don't apply at the individual level. I've talked to med students with 26 MCATs and 260 step scores and 36 MCATs and 220s. Just work your butt off and do the best you can, that's going to be my personal mantra when I start.
 
AnatomyGrey12 said:
Just want to point out that is for step 2 CK, but yes your point about percentiles is spot on.



Agree, population statistics don't apply at the individual level. I've talked to med students with 26 MCATs and 260 step scores and 36 MCATs and 220s. Just work your butt off and do the best you can, that's going to be my personal mantra when I start.
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Read the table header. I cut out the step 2 stuff.
 
cactusman said:
I think this thread just shows that @Jalby made a lot of questionable claims
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Which specific claim did I make that was questionable. And please, be specific.
 
cactusman said:
Yes, but 232 and 500 are both around 50th percentile but the average MCAT for people taking the USMLE is around 508, so distributions are skewed.
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That's what the discussion was missing. people who make it to USMLE already had well above 50th percentile MCAT.
 
Major procrastinator said:
considering havards average is a 240, a 232 is not bad.

you premeds have no idea what your talking about, welcome to the real world when your are no longer obnxious dinguses.

why did I make the mistake of posting here
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Major procrastinator said:
anyway, I am going to excuse myself from this topic. I don't know why I am getting involved with you guys. Take care and good luck.
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Major procrastinator said:
Im not a carib, and good for you. With your attitude I would never want you as my doctor. Your equal to every being in this world, like it or not. Bye, grow up.
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You keep saying you're going to leave the thread and you keep posting. Just leave.
 
libertyyne said:
There is no evidence for that, people all around the world take the step including Caribbean and DO students.
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I believe the table you posted was only US and Canadian med school students. There are some DO students, but there aren't that many DO students overall and not all take USMLE, and the DO MCAT is just above 502 (I also wouldn't be surprised if those that only do COMLEX also tended to use lower MCAT scores and are aiming for less competitive residencies).
 
libertyyne said:
Yes, you have shown us that calculation before, the question is where are you getting this income differential data where doctors of x specialty are getting paid 25K more compared to their peers who did x residency at podunk U.
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The data for this doesn't exist. Purely based on my experience in the private world and seeing who got jobs where at what salary based on my friends and my experience. $25k is not much when the salaries are between $200k and $1 million a year. Roughly 50% of my friends got their jobs because someone who knew someone vouched for them or recommended them, and going to important places will give you more important contacts. Less than 50% got their jobs from blind postings. More doors are open.

If you think this is questionable, than I can't help you.
 
Jalby said:
The data for this doesn't exist. Purely based on my experience in the private world and seeing who got jobs where at what salary based on my friends and my experience. $25k is not much when the salaries are between $200k and $1 million a year. Roughly 50% of my friends got their jobs because someone who knew someone vouched for them or recommended them, and going to important places will give you more important contacts. Less than 50% got their jobs from blind postings. More doors are open.

If you think this is questionable, than I can't help you.
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I'm fine with you offering your own experience, but you're always so certain that it's applicable to everyone and you argue it so much even while you claim to not care if people listen.
 
Jalby said:
The data for this doesn't exist. Purely based on my experience in the private world and seeing who got jobs where at what salary based on my friends and my experience. $25k is not much when the salaries are between $200k and $1 million a year. Roughly 50% of my friends got their jobs because someone who knew someone vouched for them or recommended them, and going to important places will give you more important contacts. Less than 50% got their jobs from blind postings. More doors are open.

If you think this is questionable, than I can't help you.
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Could it be that your experiences are not representative of most of America?

From my understanding, you live in Cali which is very desirable. Wouldn't that increase the amount of scrutiny prospective doctors compared to other regions? In states without as much desirability, perhaps they have less emphasis on national institutional prestige and more emphasis on regional prestige, track record etc?

So for someone trying to settle in Georgia with the most lucrative gig, they might be better off attending a med school in that region compared to someone who wants to settle in LA, Manhattan, they might be better off going to a top med school to land that top residency or residency in that city.

And also, could it be that grads from top schools earn more because they live in more expensive, desirable areas? So it balances out with people from state schools earning less but living in cheaper areas.
 
cactusman said:
I'm fine with you offering your own experience, but you're always so certain that it's applicable to everyone and you argue it so much even while you claim to not care if people listen.
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It is applicable to everybody. All other factors being the same, I am certain someone who goes to a 5 over 20 and 15 over 40 will make at least $25k more a year or have an option they prefer over the money (location or academics). You guys keep adding in counfounding variables which is not at all part of the original equation.

Name and who you know matters, and that is absolutely worth $25k a year min. I'm going to make $2.5 million more over my career because I know certain people who really like me. Four of my friends are going to make between $600k and $3 million more because they know me.

You guys (Broad general guys) keep saying there are exceptions and there are. But for the broad general population, it is absolutely accurate.
 
Jalby said:
It is applicable to everybody. All other factors being the same, I am certain someone who goes to a 5 over 20 and 15 over 40 will make at least $25k more a year or have an option they prefer over the money (location or academics). You guys keep adding in counfounding variables which is not at all part of the original equation.

Name and who you know matters, and that is absolutely worth $25k a year min. I'm going to make $2.5 million more over my career because I know certain people who really like me. Four of my friends are going to make between $600k and $3 million more because they know me.

You guys (Broad general guys) keep saying there are exceptions and there are. But for the broad general population, it is absolutely accurate.
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Hi, its me ur friend.
 
Astra said:
Could it be that your experiences are not representative of most of America?

From my understanding, you live in Cali which is very desirable. Wouldn't that increase the amount of scrutiny prospective doctors compared to other regions? In states without as much desirability, perhaps they have less emphasis on national institutional prestige and more emphasis on regional prestige, track record etc?

So for someone trying to settle in Georgia with the most lucrative gig, they might be better off attending a med school in that region compared to someone who wants to settle in LA, Manhattan, they might be better off going to a top med school to land that top residency or residency in that city.
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And this is exactly the kind of confounding variable people keep introducing that doesn't relate to the original question. As I posted, all other things being equal........



But to talk about your specific Georgia example of someone who wants to work in the woods and make bank, I don't have data for this, but I firmly believe going full price to Emory will make you more money over your life than full ride to Medical college of Georgia.
 
Something I've noticed is that a good chunk of the content on the MCAT is stuff that wasn't taught in any of the pre-med reqs (esp anatomy). I would hope that for the USMLE, med schools will have taught us all the content before we take it so there's minimal self studying

Also is there anything about conflict of interest for any of the studies you guys are linking to? I'm sure the AAMC profits out the ass by making us take the MCAT because of how ****ing expensive they make the exam and practice materials. Of course the AAMC will be pushing studies that show there is a correlation because they probably want to justify the need to take this ******ed exam
 
Jalby said:
The data for this doesn't exist. Purely based on my experience in the private world and seeing who got jobs where at what salary based on my friends and my experience. $25k is not much when the salaries are between $200k and $1 million a year. Roughly 50% of my friends got their jobs because someone who knew someone vouched for them or recommended them, and going to important places will give you more important contacts. Less than 50% got their jobs from blind postings. More doors are open.

If you think this is questionable, than I can't help you.
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You keep dancing around your actual claim. Let's build a scenario that shows the claim you originally made: there are two fresh residency graduates looking for a job, X graduates from Hopkins, Y graduates from USC, they both go to the same solid residency program. You have claimed that the Hopkins grad will make 40k more a year simply because he went to Hopkins. We all called BS on that idea, including a few other attendings. Your original claim was for medical schools. Then you claimed that MCAT score was correlated with income, and now you tried to make it look like we all were idiots that blindly argued there was no correlation between MCAT scores and Step scores. I can see your logic though, higher MCAT = better school and higher step = higher paying specialty = better job (combined with good school) = higher income. With so many other variables this is a huge form of extrapolation...

Jalby said:
As I posted, all other things being equal........
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So you are saying that you think the above scenario is true? That with two grads, one from a top 5 and another from a 25, who do the same residency will have different pay simply because the one guy went to a top 5? Lol...
 
Danny L said:
Something I've noticed is that a good chunk of the content on the MCAT is stuff that wasn't taught in any of the pre-med reqs (esp anatomy). I would hope that for the USMLE, med schools will have taught us all the content before we take it so there's minimal self studying

Also is there anything about conflict of interest for any of the studies you guys are linking to? I'm sure the AAMC profits out the ass by making us take the MCAT because of how ****ing expensive they make the exam and practice materials. Of course the AAMC will be pushing studies that show there is a correlation because they probably want to justify the need to take this ******ed exam
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Are you sure you sat for the MCAT ? I dont remember seeing much anatomy on the exams or the practice material.
 
Jalby said:
It is applicable to everybody. All other factors being the same, I am certain someone who goes to a 5 over 20 and 15 over 40 will make at least $25k more a year or have an option they prefer over the money (location or academics). You guys keep adding in counfounding variables which is not at all part of the original equation.

Name and who you know matters, and that is absolutely worth $25k a year min. I'm going to make $2.5 million more over my career because I know certain people who really like me. Four of my friends are going to make between $600k and $3 million more because they know me.

You guys (Broad general guys) keep saying there are exceptions and there are. But for the broad general population, it is absolutely accurate.
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Remind me which T-5 you went to.
 
libertyyne said:
Are you sure you sat for the MCAT ? I dont remember seeing much anatomy on the exams or the practice material.
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Haven't taken it yet but the books I have read have included some anatomy content. Other users have told me anatomy is on the exam but you can self-study for it. It was just a pain in the ass
 
libertyyne said:
Are you sure you sat for the MCAT ? I dont remember seeing much anatomy on the exams or the practice material.
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walloobi said:
Yeah there was only 1 anatomy question out of 230 on my MCAT
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1) Kudos for keeping track and
2) While I can't specifically recall any anatomy questions (this was a year ago for me), I do recall many physiology ones that you wouldn't learn unless you took a course on how organ systems function.
 
Danny L said:
Haven't taken it yet but the books I have read have included some anatomy content. Other users have told me anatomy is on the exam but you can self-study for it. It was just a pain in the ass
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There is Zero or close to zero actual anatomy questions. I never took an anatomy class in my life and did ok on it. As aldol said there are some big picture things you should know about circulatory systems, kidneys and how the anatomy influences function, a general idea of where stuff is. Nothing requiring an actual anatomy class.
 
libertyyne said:
Remind me which T-5 you went to.
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Remind me how only people who went to top 5 medical schools would have knowledge on the subject?? Because if that is the case, as a pre-Med you shouldn't even be allowed to like a post here.
 
Jalby said:
Remind me how only people who went to top 5 medical schools would have knowledge on the subject?? Because if that is the case, as a pre-Med you shouldn't even be allowed to like a post here.
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you are flaunting all of your success as indicative of success that t-5 graduates have, yet you did not go to a t-5. If anything your success proves that you dont have to go to z t-5 to be successful the way you define it. I dont even have to go out on a limb to say that there are t-5 graduates in radiology who make less then you.
 
AnatomyGrey12 said:
There are two fresh residency graduates looking for a job, X graduates from Hopkins, Y graduates from USC, they both go to the same solid residency program. You have claimed that the Hopkins grad will make 40k more a year simply because he went to Hopkins.
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The same student who went to USC and in an alternate universe went to Hopkins with the same board scores absolutely positively would not end up at the same residency program.

You would have 4-5 mentors at Hopkins that would have trained at the same place or talk on the same conference panels as the program directors and chairmen who can call and tell those people you should take those people.

At USC once an attending makes a name for themselves Cedars Sinai or Saint Johns will triple that persons salary to have them come there and make that hospital more money. And you are left with career academics and new Docs at USC that doesn't have as many connections.
 
RogueUnicorn said:
Meh, seems like a poor trade for my personal identifying information.

To get back to the topic at hand in general though, no premed should concern him/herself with this correlation, there's literally nothing you can/should do about it
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It's up to you. Your info is given privately in a secure system and only the admins will know who you are for verification purposes. Just thought it may be a useful thing to have (also for internet bragging rights 😉)

Same thing to @Jalby and any attendings/residents here. Feel free to get that verified physician badge if you want.
 
libertyyne said:
If anything your success proves that you dont have to go to z t-5 to be successful the way you define it. I dont even have to go out on a limb to say that there are t-5 graduates in radiology who make less then you.
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I never said it is a requirement or you can't do well or be happy at a non-top 5. Those are words you guys put in my mouth.

I said that going to a top 5 will give you more opportunities for money or happiness or options like academics or job location that outweigh the $200k in loans you would take over a top 20-25.
 
libertyyne said:
There is Zero or close to zero actual anatomy questions. I never took an anatomy class in my life and did ok on it. As aldol said there are some big picture things you should know about circulatory systems, kidneys and how the anatomy influences function, a general idea of where stuff is. Nothing requiring an actual anatomy class.
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Exactly, even then a lot of those questions just require an understanding of hormones and general endocrine stuff.
 
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