MCAT is correlated to Step 1 scores.

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Jalby said:
I never said it is a requirement or you can't do well or be happy at a non-top 5. Those are words you guys put in my mouth.

I said that going to a top 5 will give you more opportunities for money or happiness or options like academics or job location that outweigh the $200k in loans you would take over a top 20-25.
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That's why i believe the debt factor is exaggerated on SDN. Long-term career opportunities matter. Debt can be paid back quickly and costs can be kept low thanks to frugal living.
 
AnatomyGrey12 said:
:smack:
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I love it how you give me a scenario and then have problems when I actually answer your scenario. My bad. I won't make that mistake again.

I'm mostly writing this for the people reading the thread and not the specific pre-meds here who are 100% confident and 30% accurate.
 
For those of you keeping track at home.

1- USMLE scores are correlated to MCAT . Fact, backed up by many studies , the correlation is best described as moderate.

2. Going to a t-20 school may increase your chances of getting into a a competitive residency. There is no data to confirm this and there are counfounders out the wazoo due to the nature of the populations being accepted to these schools, including but not limited to higher mcat, better pre-med CVs, exceptional life stories, connections.

3. Going to "top residency" leads to life long returns in excess of 2.5 million dollars or 25k per year. Absolutely no proof except Jalby's insistence. The medscape and MGMA data do not prove or disprove this hypothesis.However, it makes you wonder if all the Top medical school graduates migrate to North Dakota to get that excess return.
upload_2017-3-19_22-23-14.png


That being said, obviously there are more career opportunities going to MGH, more research, connections for jobs, etc. There is no evidence to support the claim that salary differentials in excess of 25k exist and Insurers, and medicare do not differentiate between tier of medical school attended or tier of residency attended in specialty x to determine reimbursement.
 
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libertyyne said:
That being said, obviously there are more career opportunities going to MGH, more research, connections for jobs, etc.
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Where is your proof!?!?!??! And why are you stating the exact thing I have been saying over and over and over about why you should pick a top 5 school over a top 20-25 with scholarship??

And frankly, I have stated many times that all other things being equal (i.e no confounding variables which you just put like 5 of them above). You guys are the ones repeatidly throwing in the confounding variables, not me.

I even stated in my original post that it might not apply to everybody. My example was someone who knows they want to live and die in NYC, going to Mount Sinai on a full ride.could be a better move than a top 5.
 
Lawper said:
That's why i believe the debt factor is exaggerated on SDN. Long-term career opportunities matter. Debt can be paid back quickly and costs can be kept low thanks to frugal living.
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Average salaries from 2016 range from $443k for Orthopedics to $204k to pediatrics. Most people at a top 50 school are probably going to make $250K or more a year. Heck, I would say the average USC student went into G-Surg or ER and they are making $300k+.

Having to pay $400k in loans to give you tons of opportunities that last the rest of your life is totally worth it. And if you are only focused on the economics of it and nothing else, If you think a school can raise your salary between 5 to 10%, than it is in your best economic interests to go there.
 
libertyyne said:
Insurers, and medicare do not differentiate between tier of medical school attended or tier of residency attended in specialty x to determine reimbursement.
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You have no concept of how doctors make money. My roommate from Med school works in San Diego inland from the coast about 10-15 miles. He does the exact same amount of procedures as other doctors. Because the population is not as rich, they don't make as much from the procedure due to less insured people, less elective procedures, less cash pay, and the insurances that they have don't pay as much.

If their practice was 7 miles closer to the coast, they would make about 50% more because of the different population and those doctors get paid more for doing the exact same amount of work. (this number and information is directly from the managing partner who I went to a chargers game and had a long conversation about the economics of this for them and the economics of my job)


So being able to get the job closer to the coast matters a lot more than this mythical insurers paying certain grads more.
 
Jalby said:
You have no concept of how doctors make money. My roommate from Med school works in San Diego inland from the coast about 10-15 miles. He does the exact same amount of procedures as other doctors. Because the population is not as rich, they don't make as much from the procedure due to less insured people, less elective procedures, less cash pay, and the insurances that they have don't pay as much.

If their practice was 7 miles closer to the coast, they would make about 50% more because of the different population and those doctors get paid more for doing the exact same amount of work. (this number and information is directly from the managing partner who I went to a chargers game and had a long conversation about the economics of this for them and the economics of my job)


So being able to get the job closer to the coast matters a lot more than this mythical insurers paying certain grads more.
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Thanks, I am familiar with payor mix. You want to provide any real examples of being 7 miles closer being stocked with t-5 studs, with lower overhead, and better payor mix?
 
Jalby said:
.e no confounding variables which you just put like 5 of them above). You guys are the ones repeatidly throwing in the confounding variables, not me
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Dude you literally just created an alternate universe where residency graduates switched schools.
 
libertyyne said:
Thanks, I am familiar with payor mix. You want to provide any real examples of being 7 miles closer being stocked with t-5 studs, with lower overhead, and better payor mix?
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Here you. Both trained at Stanford. And if you went to Stanford your advisor could call them and tell them they should hire you.

Our Executive Team - San Diego Imaging Radiology

I'm ready for you 3 paragraph reply where you add in all kinds of modifiers.
 
I know what he meant, it's just a little hypocritical to sit there and say he isn't the one creating confounding variables and then creates a situation that is completely full of confounding variables.
 
Jalby said:
Here you. Both trained at Stanford. And if you went to Stanford your advisor could call them and tell them they should hire you.

Our Executive Team - San Diego Imaging Radiology

I'm ready for you 3 paragraph reply where you add in all kinds of modifiers.
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Neither went to a t-5, and one completed his residency as san Diego .
Here is the first 10 or so radiologists
upload_2017-3-20_0-1-45.png
 
I can't believe you guys sit here and argue about such minuscule things. It's very hard to find people who admit they are wrong on SDN, which to me is very admirable. Everyone's too close minded and stubborn. I wish I could get back those 20 min I just wasted reading this thread, I should've given up SDN for lent..
 
cke11 said:
I can't believe you guys sit here and argue about such minuscule things. It's very hard to find people who admit they are wrong on SDN, which to me is very admirable. Everyone's too close minded and stubborn. I wish I could get back those 20 min I just wasted reading this thread, I should've given up SDN for lent..
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arguing in circles with people too smart to be wrong is the entire point of these forums

with the occasional hot tip for med school admissions sprinkled in now and again, of course.
 
cke11 said:
I can't believe you guys sit here and argue about such minuscule things. It's very hard to find people who admit they are wrong on SDN, which to me is very admirable. Everyone's too close minded and stubborn. I wish I could get back those 20 min I just wasted reading this thread, I should've given up SDN for lent..
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You should really improve your reading speed, it will be necessary for the CARS section.
 
There are 4 reasons for correlations.
X causes Y
Y causes X
A third factor is connected to both of them
Random chance

In this case, is a third factor: study habits. If you scored well on the MCAT, you already developed proper study habits to succeed in medical school. This post is completely pointless.
 
cloudstrife2054 said:
There are 4 reasons for correlations.
X causes Y
Y causes X
A third factor is connected to both of them
Random chance

In this case, is a third factor: study habits. If you scored well on the MCAT, you already developed proper study habits to succeed in medical school. This post is completely pointless.
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lol, tell that to 4.0, 18 and 2.5, 41 groups.
 
cloudstrife2054 said:
There are 4 reasons for correlations.
X causes Y
Y causes X
A third factor is connected to both of them
Random chance

In this case, is a third factor: study habits. If you scored well on the MCAT, you already developed proper study habits to succeed in medical school. This post is completely pointless.
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Lol this is so not true.

You can prep for the mcat at your own leisure. Med school is not like that
 
One of the things Jalby is trying to get across to you guys reminds me of something once told to me by one of our Clinical Deans: Residencies use med schools in the same way that med schools use UG schools as feeder programs.

When you know the product is a good product, you look for that, even when out there is equally good product.
 
Goro said:
One of the things Jalby is trying to get across to you guys reminds me of something once told to me by one of our Clinical Deans: Residencies use med schools in the same way that med schools use UG schools as feeder programs.
.
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And this goes on down the line. Fellowships pull from certain residencies. Jobs pull from certain fellowships.

I'm not sure why people believe that there is a certain break in this cycle immediately at medical school or that this only applies in some parts of the country and not others, because it doesn't.
 
Jalby said:
Fellowships pull from certain residencies. Jobs pull from certain fellowships.
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And I found it hilarious that when I stated my midlevel place where I work pulls from Loma Linda that some people went crazy. (BUT THAT IS NOT TOP 5!!!!!!) Well, my place is not top 5. I know this point is lost of the 4 people who keep commenting, but everybody else, I hope you learn something.
 
Well, pre-meds, y'know.

On SDN.

Jalby said:
And I found it hilarious that when I stated my midlevel place where I work pulls from Loma Linda that some people went crazy. (BUT THAT IS NOT TOP 5!!!!!!) Well, my place is not top 5. I know this point is lost of the 4 people who keep commenting, but everybody else, I hope you learn something.
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"Hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work hard." ~EDIT: sorry internet misled me/I read through the google results too fast. I believe this is actually a Tim Notke quote.

The highest performers probably have both, and thus will consistently score well.
 
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But who is maturity or growth academically over four years of rigorous sciences?

I got a 26 on the ACT and got a 512 on the MCAT. Football was life at that time.
 
PB&Jam said:
"Hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work hard." ~Kevin Durant

The highest performers probably have both, and thus will consistently score well.
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This was my all time favorite quote and was hung up in my college soccer locker room, but its not a KD quote... just so you know 🙂
 
Can you guys stop saying t-5 t-20
You sound like posers and you're not in law school
 
cke11 said:
This was my all time favorite quote and was hung up in my college soccer locker room, but its not a KD quote... just so you know 🙂
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Well, crap. The internet told me it was. I will do more research and attribute it correctly.
 
RenegadeOkapi said:
Um, I'm not sure. People's work ethic tend to change, and from high school to undergraduate to med school, there is a pretty big room for change.
I'll be off to med school in the fall so I don't have Step 1 scores, but my scores thus far might be an outlier:

ACT: 36
SAT:2380
MCAT: 513

Not the biggest correlation.
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You probably just had an off day.

I had a student with the following scores:
ACT 29 (as a 7th grader before any high school level classes)
SAT 2360
MCAT 524

The ACT was cold, no prep. The SAT was a week or two of reading the Barron's book. MCAT was 7 weeks' of self-prep with EK, Kaplan books and full-length practice tests.

Student is now an MD M2 and it will be interesting to see his/her Step 1 score.
 
precisiongraphic said:
You probably just had an off day.

I had a student with the following scores:
ACT 29 (as a 7th grader before any high school level classes)
SAT 2360
MCAT 524

The ACT was cold, no prep. The SAT was a week or two of reading the Barron's book. MCAT was 7 weeks' of self-prep with EK, Kaplan books and full-length practice tests.

Student is now an MD M2 and it will be interesting to see his/her Step 1 score.
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Wow!

The interesting thing is, the ACT and SAT didn't require much prior knowledge, just a habit of taking practice exams. Only math tested prior knowledge, and only covered the basics.

The most difficult part of the MCAT for me was time. Sitting for 8 hours for a computer-based test is annoying.
 
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