MCW vs. Wayne State

[mjos22]

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Ok, I searched the stickies for a comparison between these two schools, and I couldn't find anything. But I apologize if this is still a painful repeat (many of these threads seem to pop up around this time of the year).

I'll list what I have found to be the Pro's and Con's of each school, but i'd really appreciate some insight. I'm going back to visit MCW on April 5th, so hopefully that will help as well.


Wayne State:

PRO

1). In state-tuition ($21,695, might be an old number).
2). Relationship with the DMC. Great medical experience, students seem to be known around the country for their medical experience. Tunnel system connects school to three different hospitals.
3). Close to home. But honestly, I'm not the type of person where I think this would be an issue. I'm excited by the idea of potentially moving away. But I also know people who go to Wayne....

CON

1). Relationship with the DMC. They had heated contract issues with the DMC this year (with their residency program). Required intervention on the part of the Governor. I'm sure a lot of you may have read about this. They eventually agreed to a new contract, but it expires in just 3 years (i'd have to worry about this all over again).
2). Class size (300 students, MCW has a class size of 200). Might be a minor issue, I don't know.
3). Facilities. On the one hand, who cares. On the other hand, they seem to be worse than MCW.
4). Michigan economy. Again, maybe not an issue for me in particular, but this place is going downhill, and fast.
5). I hear a lot of complaints (mainly on this message board, over in the allo. forum) about the administration's ineptitude. Maybe its just a handful of students that feel this way, but a common complaint is how long it takes for people to get tests back and that sort of thing.

MCW:

PRO

1). Difference in tuition alone is not excessive.
2). Very good medical experience in their own right. Connected via tunnel system to Froedert and Childrens (one of the top Children's hospital in the country). Froedert is the only Level 1 trauma hospital in eastern Wisconsin.
3). Nice facilities, from what I have seen. Very pleasant students (student host) and staff (Istwan) as well. I'll combine that with "facilities", because I'm not sure how much it matters, or if its really any different than WSU (probably not).
4). Scutwork.com has one review of the anesthesia residency program at MCW (my current, temporary, field of choice), and it was a really good review....weak, I know.

CON

1). Out of state-tuition ($28,000, I'm pretty sure is an old number).
2). Honestly, don't really know.


I have the "premium" account at USNews, but unfortunately, they don't list much information for WSU. Am I way off on something here in my list? Is this about right? Any advice? I would really appreciate it! I think the reason I have a lot of Cons about Wayne is because I know a lot more about Wayne than I do MCW.

Honestly, I wish I could talk to a 3rd, maybe 4th year student, because I don't ever hear much about rotations or how hard/easy it is to match from a particular school (outside of looking at match lists, which I find painfully difficult to interpret). Even how students felt about taking the boards. Is there anyone here who could help me with this, or if I asked each school's admissions office, could they put me in contact with a 4th year via email or something?

Thanks again for your help, its greatly appreciated.

 

[TroubleTheCat]

I interviewed at MCW and was not very impressed. The facilities are nice, but I could not find any indication that the medical training would be good or that the reputation of MCW would be of service to you. Yeah, Wayne State is in a bad location (both due to crime and the current state of the economy) so don't live there while you are in medical school and promise yourself that you will seek a much better residency spot (a lot of Wayne State M.D.'s go back to University of Michigan for their residencies). Wayne State's program has been around for a very long time and they give you the resources you need to become a great doctor. You will not find much data on USNEWS about wayne state because wayne state does not participate in the USNEWS ranking surveys. You may think that people will say "Where the heck is Wayne State? How good could that medical school be?" but if you then tell them that you trained in the hospitals of downtown Detroit there will be no doubt in their minds that you were exposed to many different things during M3 and M4 and that you earned an excellent education.

Hope this helps. I am seriously considering attending Wayne State above 6 other schools I have been accepted into.

 

[Chulito]

mjos22-

I interviewed at MCW and liked it very much, though in the end I've chosen to go elsewhere. I don't mean to discourage you from choosing them in any way, but you should know that the tuition price that you've cited is about $10,000 too low. Not only is the number an old one, but it is what the price of tuition was at the time for residents of Wisconsin, who get a $5,000 break despite the fact that MCW is a private school. Since I've withdrawn from MCW I no longer have the financial information that they gave me, but I remember that tuition will be just shy of $38,000 this year (or $33,000 if you're from Wisconsin).

 

[IUHoosier21]

For what it's worth, tuition at MCW is about $38K/year for out of state students ($5K less for Wisconsin residents).

 

[mjos22]

mjos22-

I interviewed at MCW and liked it very much, though in the end I've chosen to go elsewhere. I don't mean to discourage you from choosing them in any way, but you should know that the tuition price that you've cited is about $10,000 too low. Not only is the number an old one, but it is what the price of tuition was at the time for residents of Wisconsin, who get a $5,000 break despite the fact that MCW is a private school. Since I've withdrawn from MCW I no longer have the financial information that they gave me, but I remember that tuition will be just shy of $38,000 this year (or $33,000 if you're from Wisconsin).

Right. Although, for one, I know the WSU tuition figure I quoted is old as well, and two, I'd prefer trying to make the decision without money being the deciding factor. I know that its important to take that into consideration, but I wouldn't want the quality of my education to suffer because of that. Not saying that it would, but just wouldn't want it to.

With that said, I realize I listed it as a PRO/CON, so obviously its a factor 😀

To TheCat, thats very interesting. I realize how recognized the clinical training at WSU is, but I never really got the impressive that MCW's reputation would "not help me" (to slightly mis-quote you....). Is there any particular reason you feel this way, or just a gut instinct? Possibly my biggest issue is the fact that WSU gives you excellent medical training, but from the outside, it appears that MCW might give you a similar, urban training environment. Granted, WSU is affiliated with a greater number of hospitals, but I'm not sure how big the difference is between the two schools.

If there was one thing I wish I could compare between the two schools on USNews.com, itd be the residency director rating. I'm sure WSU's would be high, but I'd be curious as to how the schools compare to each other.

Thanks for the help guys. If anyone else can add anything, i'd really appreciate it!

 

[coffeebythelake]

Wayne State recently unveiled their Vision 2011, and I'm pretty stoked about that. Millions of dollars in investment towards a new education commons building at the med school, a new research building at main campus, and a plan to become a top tier medical school through research funding. Its definitely ambitious, and I'm sure the school will become more recognized and more competitive in the next few years.

 

[SpartyFan]

The only problem with the 2011 vision is that it really won't help us as it will not be complete untill after we graduate. Also, I can learn medicine in a shack just as well as I could learn it in a gold plated dome with leather coaches. All I care about is how great of a teacher I have not in what type of room I am learning it in.

Although I am no expert, I do not believe the DMC contract issue should be an issue. About 1 out of every 3 doctors in Michigan went to medical school at Wayne State. There is too much at stake for DMC and Wayne not to stay together. For one, the amount of Michigan doctors (especially in Southeast Michigan) would plummet. With MSUCHM moving to northeast Michigan and the majority of UofM graduates leaving the state of Michigan after they graduate (who the hell can blame them), who would take care of patients from Southeast Michigan?

When it comes down to it, I believe Wayne State will provide me with the most diverse and engaging clinical experience in the nation. The only concern I have is the fact that if I do go to Wayne, I may be limiting myself to a residency in Michigan as Wayne does not have much nation appeal.

 

[Furstenfeld]

Just wanted to weigh in a bit on this. The Wayne-DMC problems don't look like they're going to go away in the near future. Realistically, though, they're not your problem (yet). People just starting their residencies at the DMC are the ones who will potentially be hosed. The current WSU-DMC agreement is a 3.5 year truce. That will get you through third year, so you'll get at least a year of that famous clinical service. The beef involves WSU's expanding relations with other hospitals in SE Michigan. From WSU's perspective, there's time to ensure that these relations can support their students/residents; from the DMC's perspective, there's time to put their standalone residency programs in place, separate from WSU; from your perspective, that means you may be working at Beaumont, St. John's, Providence, Henry Ford, or St. Joe's Pontiac (or any of a bunch of other places) rather than Harper or DRH. (Caveat: I know this agreement deals with the residencies, but I don't know just what it means for 3rd & 4th year med students in 2010). There are a lot of forceful personalities involved, and it's all about money. Luckily, they've got a while to figure it out. If either side finds their dreams crumbling, they've got an option to maintain the status quo. Also, the governor has taken an interest in the matter--she's got a bit of clout and a lot of reasons to want to keep this relationship strong. Everyone agrees that more doctors means both more healthy people and more money--so they'll be looking out for your interests.

So what should you be thinking about? Consider at what you want to do later on. You mention MCW's hospitals. For the moment, Wayne's got DRH (also a Level 1 Trauma center, I believe) and Children's (no CHW, but still pretty darn good). If you want to be a trauma doc or a pediatrician, you'll do fine at either school. If you want to sub-specialize, look at what programs each offers, and who teaches there. If the names mean nothing, check them out on Pubmed, or see what associations they belong to; find their info on hospital web-sites. Getting in good with the right guys while getting your MD can be advantageous when looking for a spot in a specific type of residency.

Detroit has Canada. Milwaukee has Madison.

If you don't know what kind of doctor you want to be yet, think about financial and social factors: the right atmosphere can offset some cash differential, but over 4 years, you may decide the pricetag isn't worth it. For example: I'm weighing two schools right now. The cheaper one has the better rep, but I am leaning toward the more expensive one. I believe I can do what I need to do there, and it just had a better feeling. In the end, weigh all and the factors and go with your gut. Recently, a professor at one of these schools assures me that it's not possible to get a bad medical education in this country. Pass the courses and you'll learn what you need to know.

Detroit has the Dream Cruise. Milwaukee has the Irish Fest.

You have your head on straight when you say you can learn medicine in a shack (that's my attitude, too), but it'd be easier in a med school where you have some level of comfort and/or some groundwork for your future is being laid.

Both cities have good beer.

Good luck with your decision.

Sparty: MSU is moving to Grand Rapids, which is West Michigan. I think it will be a good move for the school. Nice city, and MSUCHM is still (so far as I know) going to ship some 3rd and 4th years out--so if you decide you don't like GR, you don't have to stay there.

 

[UMP]

I highly doubt that Michigan's troubles will go on for too much longer. I think Wayne has the edge without taking tuition in to account, but with the huge tuition difference 23k vs 38k... there has to be something that blows you away personally at MCW to make you want to go there over Wayne...

Although, I won't try to make my case too good for Wayne, there are lots of people on this board on the WSU waitlist who would love to take your place

Go to re-visit MCW... see if there is something that great about it that would make you want to pay 15k more...

 

[MadHopsMD]

I highly doubt that Michigan's troubles will go on for too much longer. I think Wayne has the edge without taking tuition in to account, but with the huge tuition difference 23k vs 38k... there has to be something that blows you away personally at MCW to make you want to go there over Wayne...

Although, I won't try to make my case too good for Wayne, there are lots of people on this board on the WSU waitlist who would love to take your place

Go to re-visit MCW... see if there is something that great about it that would make you want to pay 15k more...

My interviewer said that DMC/Wayne state issue was a matter of "egos". Also an issue that should not affect your medical education at all. If the cost is 15K per year, UMP is right, the school has to really blow you away in order to forfeit Wayne's acceptance. Remember also that Wayne has lots of in-state scholarships also --even if MCW did have these (I am not sure) I highly doubt it will be afforded to you as a OOS student.

 

[GujuMD]

OP,

You have listed more cons for Wayne State than pros and more pros for MCW than cons....i think you have already made up your answer and just want to re-assure yourself that you aren't making a mistake by posting the question on SDN. THe only thing would be paying OOS vs. instate.

I personally think you should go to MCW.

 

[TroubleTheCat]

Right. Although, for one, I know the WSU tuition figure I quoted is old as well, and two, I'd prefer trying to make the decision without money being the deciding factor. I know that its important to take that into consideration, but I wouldn't want the quality of my education to suffer because of that. Not saying that it would, but just wouldn't want it to.

With that said, I realize I listed it as a PRO/CON, so obviously its a factor 😀

To TheCat, thats very interesting. I realize how recognized the clinical training at WSU is, but I never really got the impressive that MCW's reputation would "not help me" (to slightly mis-quote you....). Is there any particular reason you feel this way, or just a gut instinct? Possibly my biggest issue is the fact that WSU gives you excellent medical training, but from the outside, it appears that MCW might give you a similar, urban training environment. Granted, WSU is affiliated with a greater number of hospitals, but I'm not sure how big the difference is between the two schools.

If there was one thing I wish I could compare between the two schools on USNews.com, itd be the residency director rating. I'm sure WSU's would be high, but I'd be curious as to how the schools compare to each other.

Thanks for the help guys. If anyone else can add anything, i'd really appreciate it!

As I said, I just wasn't very impressed and I do not think that MCW's reputation or clinical training would be of much service to you (in the sense that I meant over what you would get from Wayne State). In the long run I'm sure both schools would give you what you want, but you need to take more of a look at what you want instead of what each school has to offer. If you want to prepare for a residency in a big urban setting then Wayne State has the edge (and many top-tier residency spots are located in urban settings). If you want to live close to campus and feel safe about where you live then MCW definitely has the edge (although you can certainly commute to Detroit from the much safer suburbs ~15-20 minutes away). There are many, many more pros and cons for each school than what you listed and I encourage you to figure it out via your own personal research.

 

[Dr.Detroit]

Detroit has Canada. Milwaukee has Madison.

Good post, nice insights. Just like to add: If Milwaukee has Madison, then Detroit has Ann Arbor.

Also, before I went there to interview, I didn't realize how suburban MCW's campus is. (I think that it's technically in a city called Wauwatosa. Or, maybe it only has a Milwaukee mailing address due to some technicality.) It's setting is much different than WSU's.

 

[Ashers]

Good post, nice insights. Just like to add: If Milwaukee has Madison, then Detroit has Ann Arbor.

Also, before I went there to interview, I didn't realize how suburban MCW's campus is. (I think that it's technically in a city called Wauwatosa. Or, maybe it only has a Milwaukee mailing address due to some technicality.) It's setting is much different than WSU's.

Yeah, MCW is in Wauwatosa (aka Tosa). I love that about the school. It's close to Milwaukee, and the mailing address is probably Milwaukee because most people wouldn't know where Wauwatosa is (I wouldn't).

MCW is a great school. I know nothing about Wayne State -- I didn't even apply there. I'm OOS here too, and my in state school was a lot cheaper, but I had no desire to go there, except for it's warm year round.