MSUCHM Vs Wayne State (Urgent Help Needed)

[crspunky]

Hello, I am hoping to get some input on my current school decision. I am deciding today between Wayne State and MSUCHM. Some background about me, I am a non-trad applicant who graduated in 2019, and didn't do super well in some classes in undergrad likely due to untreated ADHD (and my own skill, haha). I am most interested in OB/Gyn related specialties, and Global Health. I would however, like to explore other specialties because I am first-gen and my exposure has been limited, it's one of the things I am most excited for in medical school. Lifetime Michigander but I would like to end up in Chicago.

Now, my concerns: I hear terrible things about Wayne being unsupportive, cutthroat, and that scares me. But lots of current and recent students don't feel that way. I worry that choosing the more supportive environment may limit my future opportunities, but current MSU students disagree and feel like they have all the same opportunities as their friends at other schools with a fraction of the stress. My biggest hang up with MSU is financial aid, as I received $0 gift aid, and will be fully funding with loans.

Here's a somewhat concise list of pros and cons for each.

MSU: ~68k/year, no scholarships offered... anticipating approx. $272,000 in loans

Pros-

• Supportive environment, students seem more laid back, admin is approachable and seems to listen to student feedback
• Opportunity to relocated to a community campus in two years, including cities like Detroit, Grand Rapids.
• New-ish relationship with Henry Ford system seems promising.
• True P/F grading in PC, Honors in clinicals but I do see that as being a chance to differentiate myself.
• I'm from the area, and would be closer to my aging parents and grand parents. I am a pretty independent person but my family would appreciate this.
• Smaller class size, around 95 at each 1st year campus.
• Slightly earlier clinical exposure.
• Seems like students have more free time, fewer exams, and there will be a flexible curriculum in the 2nd year that allows me to decide if I want to condense the year to have several months of free time to do with as I please (Vacation, Research, etc)

Cons-

• Abysmal financial aid. I am first-gen, low income, all that. Anything not given in gift aid will be loans.
• Match list seems worse than Wayne, and they match fewer to competitive specialties
• Research opportunities seem more limited, but there are programs in place to try and match you with some research. Will likely need to do a lot of my own legwork.
• Limited global health, but more than 0.
• Waitlisted for my certificate program : Leadership for the Medical Underserved. May not match into urban clinical site because Detroit, Grand Rapids and Southfield tend to have high demand.
• 1 year PC, might be kinda fast for me but at least no grading.

Neutral/Unknown: changing aspects of curriculum, meant to better prepare students for STEP… not sure if it will be good or bad but I will be in the guinea pig class.

Wayne: ~72k/year, received a $46,000 scholarship (nonrenewable) for first year, and $18k/year after. (Total value 100,000k) Estimated loans - $188,000

Pros-

• Financial aid package is better than MSU, but not clear on future costs/scholarships available. Likely will get more aid in future years but how much is unknown.
• Located in Detroit! Fun city, lots to do. Reasonable-ish cost of living but more expensive than East Lansing. Still within an hour or 2 of my family.
• More plentiful research (considered second-best in Michigan) but no compulsory research/curriculum supported (maybe one project? IDR)… so probably will still have to put some amount of effort into finding placements.
• Appears to have better Match results

Cons -

• This may sound silly but the vibes are off. From my interview day until now, I haven't felt great about the folks I spoke to. I hear admin is not very supportive or caring. That scares me a lot. People joke about getting "Wayne'd" and that's quite unsettling.
• Huge class size... around 300. Also scary. Many have said it's not as bad as it seems but I wonder how often folks are just... dealing with what they have.
• Heard community relationships and partnerships are tense. Students don't seem to feel a difference in their experience thus far.
• H/P/F PC grading. H/S+/S/F grading for clinicals. Internal ranking, although I believe it's in quartiles?
• Limited free time, maybe 4-5 weeks total off each year.

Similarities: both are ranked similarly overall, according to Admit.org, with Wayne 83 and MSU 85. Both are flipped classroom and require a LOT of in-person time. Both have AOA.

My biggest concerns come down to - setting myself up for success, as I am not a traditional, gunner, super genius. Not limiting myself or my potential as much as possible, and limiting loan burden... but recognizing my mental health and success may be worth a bit more funds. Medical school is hard in general, and signing up to be graded makes me wonder if I'm just signing up for additional stress?

Thank you so much for taking the time to read, consider, and hopefully discuss with me. I know there are probably many things I don't know or have wrong... but I am absolutely doing my best here and trying to work with the limited information I have gathered. I appreciate your kindness and perspective in considering my options.

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[Iron Man23]

Seems like you want MSU. It’s tough but 100k can be paid back later but it’s also no small amount.

 

[crspunky]

Seems like you want MSU. It’s tough but 100k can be paid back later but it’s also no small amount.

Yeah, I think I do. But that money is huge… I think Wayne is an excellent school and a much better price but I just worry if I’m going to do well. 😕 Maybe the negatives I worry about Wayne aren’t as bad as I think but I’m having a hard time getting info from current students and admin wasn’t super helpful when I asked questions in info sessions.

This is agony 😭 I know it’s a good problem to have but it’s definitely not feeling like it right now

 

[Iron Man23]

Yeah, I think I do. But that money is huge… I think Wayne is an excellent school and a much better price but I just worry if I’m going to do well. 😕 Maybe the negatives I worry about Wayne aren’t as bad as I think but I’m having a hard time getting info from current students and admin wasn’t super helpful when I asked questions in info sessions.

This is agony 😭 I know it’s a good problem to have but it’s definitely not feeling like it right now

I think you can do great at either. But the money is the big difference

 

[cytomegalovirus123]

This is the perfect question for me to help with I'm a current student at CHM. So, initially, during your first year, you'll spend some time actually working somewhat like a medical assistant (MA) in the clinic. It's a blast initially, and then you progress to working more directly with docs. There are certain doctors who are actually quite useful and will let you do things like talk to patients, read imaging, and participate in other hands-on educational tasks. It's not glamorous, but it's a decent exposure to clinical practice. You'll get some time in second year where you do "rotations," although they're not as daunting as you might think your actual clerkships won't start until third year. The curriculum is not hurried, and you will not be under too much stress. I believe that there are now two alternatives to the preclinical curriculum: 24 months or 18 months. The faculty members here are very friendly and helpful, and research is easily accessible by no means. We also have a third- and fourth-year match placement system. Personally, I went out and sought out faculty in my area of specialty and started doing research before attending medical school. If you are based in Grand Rapids, many of the Corewell physicians are CHM faculty, and participating in research or visiting grand rounds is easy. For orthopedics, surgical oncology, and ophthalmology, there are established student research groups. We also have research electives built into the curriculum though I’m not sure if that will change for your class. Most students end up at their preferred third- and fourth-year sites, with only a few placed elsewhere. Lastly, while CHM may match fewer students into high-competitiveness specialties than a school like Wayne State, there must be considered that Wayne has around 318 students to CHM's 190. Our curriculum overall is attuned to student feedback and changes on a regular basis better or worse.

 

[cytomegalovirus123]

Now to address the match list. You do not have access to our match list unfortunately. But I do and I will compare the two.

Key takeaways:

• MSU CHM matched proportionally more students into Neurology, Internal Med/Peds, Urology, Vascular Surgery, and Plastic Surgery.
• Wayne State had higher match rates in Internal Medicine, Emergency Medicine, Psychiatry, Pediatrics, and Orthopaedic Surgery.
• Both schools were comparable in Family Medicine and General Surgery.
• CHM matched fewer into Ophthalmology and Otolaryngology, though these are typically low-n spots.
• Neither school matched into Pathology this year.

I will say both schools will probably get you to where you want to be for the match. The extra 100k might be painful. H/P/F preclinical is insane though. As a current student at CHM, it is pretty easy to just start using the 3rd party material and grinding anking from day 1. It is not stressful here at all and there is no competition with any students. Is that worth an extra 100k? I am not sure. Good luck in your decision.

 

[cytomegalovirus123]

Just to add more points. Yes Wayne has been losing some of their clinical partnerships and yes MSU has developed strong relations with Henry ford and their associated residency programs. Both schools are pretty similar to each other and share the same prospects. Wayne still has the slight edge, but I expect this gap to close even more in the near future. Overall, Wayne will set you up very nicely and it is cheaper. It may be harder due to the way the curriculum is set up and it may be more stressful. But it will be cheaper and the financial aid uncertainty with the current administration makes me lean Wayne for you. This is coming from me as an MSU student as well. Oh yeah and internal ranking as well could be very stressful on you and your peers.