MD after PhD

[Predocpremed]

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Hi everyone,

I've read a lot of threads on this forum about the PhD to MD topic, but there a few questions I can't seem to find concrete answers to.

A quick background about myself: I am currently and ABD Ph.D. candidate in organic chemistry and, after long and careful consideration, I have decided to pursue medicine instead of research. I have considered leaving my Ph.D. program, but by time I matriculate into medical school, I will be finished with my degree. So it doesn't make sense to me to quit now (thoughts?). Prior to graduate school, I worked as an assistant in a hospital radiology department (3 years), an ER tech (4 years), and a volunteer EMT during most of that time. I sincerely miss working in healthcare and, having been at the bench for the last several years, I am eager to return the bedside.

I guess what I am wondering is, is there an effective way to communicate to an adcom my desire to earn an MD? I'm not really sure I can justify why I decided to do the PhD in the first place, other than that I was good at o-chem and really enjoyed research as an undergrad. Don't get me wrong, I still love and respect chemistry a great deal, but it's not for me. Will I be viewed negatively for this transition?

As for my other qualifications, I have all the required pre-reqs and decent grades (3.6 undergrad and 3.7 grad). I understand the MCAT is important and will study hard. As of now my practice tests have been pretty good. I went to a pretty widely renowned tech school for undergrad, am currently in a top 10 grad program in my field (if that matters), and have a few publications.

Sorry for the long post, hopefully I didn't overlook any really similar threads. Thanks!

 

[chiberian husky]

I wouldn't worry about the Why did I PhD instead of MD? question. This seems irrelevant. It is just what you did because it was right at the time and then you figured out you wanted to do something else. This is life, things happen, and things change over time. Also, an organic chemistry PhD isn't exactly a strange and unusual thing for a future physician to have been interested in, I think ADCOMs will understand.

Prior to graduate school, I worked as an assistant in a hospital radiology department (3 years), an ER tech (4 years), and a volunteer EMT during most of that time. I sincerely miss working in healthcare and, having been at the bench for the last several years, I am eager to return the bedside.

I think these are 100% legit reasons to go back into medicine. You should be able to turn this into a compelling personal statement.

& it seems like you don't have many hurdles to overcome. You've got a strong GPA, lots of ECs in clinical, volunteer, & research. Now get a good score on the MCAT and you'll be golden. Unfortunately, I don't have any advise for the new MCAT -but considering your science heavy background- you may want to try to take the old version before it switches over. (It sounds like maybe you are planning to take soon?)

Also, I'd finish out your PhD, because A. don't leave things undone (just bad form, imo) and B. for ADCOMs it will give your story a bit more continuity & demonstrates dedication, etc. and C. MD/PhDs are cool 😉

 

[cabinbuilder]

Sounds like you need to talk with QofQuimica. She can best advise you.

 

[QofQuimica]

So it doesn't make sense to me to quit now (thoughts?).

Correct. You should plan on finishing the PhD prior to matriculation into med school.

Prior to graduate school, I worked as an assistant in a hospital radiology department (3 years), an ER tech (4 years), and a volunteer EMT during most of that time. I sincerely miss working in healthcare and, having been at the bench for the last several years, I am eager to return the bedside.

I guess what I am wondering is, is there an effective way to communicate to an adcom my desire to earn an MD?

Sounds like you did so pretty effectively just above.

I'm not really sure I can justify why I decided to do the PhD in the first place, other than that I was good at o-chem and really enjoyed research as an undergrad. Don't get me wrong, I still love and respect chemistry a great deal, but it's not for me. Will I be viewed negatively for this transition?

Possibly. You can't control it, so no point in worrying about it. Are you looking to have an academic career, or straight clinical? If it's the latter, you do need to think about how you're going to present the PhD as being more than just a boondoggle for a person who jumps around from career to career.

Have you done any shadowing or had other clinical experience while you were in grad school? If not, you should. Adcoms will still expect to see recent clinical experience from you even though you have some great clinical ECs from the past.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Just be honest about it. You tried a PhD because you thought that was the career you wanted but discovered it wasn't for you. Now the important part will be to say why medicine now all of a sudden.

 

[Predocpremed]

First, thank you all for your rapid and thorough responses! This forum is great!

(It sounds like maybe you are planning to take soon?)

Yes, I do plan to take the MCAT before they make the switch, but it will likely be cutting it close because i don't feel prepared quite yet. I'm not sure exactly what the new social and behavioral sciences section is about, but it sounds like something I won't excel at.

Possibly. You can't control it, so no point in worrying about it. Are you looking to have an academic career, or straight clinical? If it's the latter, you do need to think about how you're going to present the PhD as being more than just a boondoggle for a person who jumps around from career to career.

Have you done any shadowing or had other clinical experience while you were in grad school? If not, you should. Adcoms will still expect to see recent clinical experience from you even though you have some great clinical ECs from the past.

At the moment, I am only certain that I want to be in a clinical setting. I have never really wanted an academic career, but I am only basing that on what I have seen in chemistry. I might be interested in academic medicine, but I need to learn more about what that entails. As for clinical experience, I have had none since starting graduate school and, until now, had not really planned on seeking out anything due to the fact that I already work 80-ish hours per week in the lab. I have thought about asking an MD-PhD cardiologist (straight clinical) in my area if I could shadow him. Maybe it will help me gain some perspective on what the PhD degree might do for a physician. If anyone has any suggestions about specific clinical experience that would be beneficial to my situation I would be very grateful to hear from you!

Just be honest about it. You tried a PhD because you thought that was the career you wanted but discovered it wasn't for you. Now the important part will be to say why medicine now all of a sudden.

I can't say that my desire to become a physician is sudden. In fact, It is what I have wanted to do pretty much my entire life, and deciding between graduate school and medical school as an undergrad was quite the struggle. I thought that as a medicinal chemist (my plan was to work in pharma) I could make a bigger impact in terms of helping people (I was optimistic), but now I realize seeing and working with patients is the career I want to have. Maybe an academic career would be a good way to bridge those two thoughts? I shall do some digging...

Thanks again!

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

I can't say that my desire to become a physician is sudden. In fact, It is what I have wanted to do pretty much my entire life, and deciding between graduate school and medical school as an undergrad was quite the struggle. I thought that as a medicinal chemist (my plan was to work in pharma) I could make a bigger impact in terms of helping people (I was optimistic), but now I realize seeing and working with patients is the career I want to have. Maybe an academic career would be a good way to bridge those two thoughts? I shall do some digging...

Thanks again!

Sounds like a good explanation. If you're interested in an academic career, that makes a lot of sense and it would probably be in your best interest to mention that.

 

[Petypet]

At the moment, I am only certain that I want to be in a clinical setting. I have never really wanted an academic career, but I am only basing that on what I have seen in chemistry. I might be interested in academic medicine, but I need to learn more about what that entails. As for clinical experience, I have had none since starting graduate school and, until now, had not really planned on seeking out anything due to the fact that I already work 80-ish hours per week in the lab. I have thought about asking an MD-PhD cardiologist (straight clinical) in my area if I could shadow him. Maybe it will help me gain some perspective on what the PhD degree might do for a physician. If anyone has any suggestions about specific clinical experience that would be beneficial to my situation I would be very grateful to hear from you!

Followed my same path, PhD chemistry/biochemistry and now in the midsts of getting my medical degree. Biggest thing I can say is find a few clinicians and academic researchers to see if you enjoy what they do. I am planning on an academic career, but I was surprised how different my bench work was compared to clinical work (personally hate clinical work, stupid statistics, but would enjoy a career as a PI managing several grad/med students). If you are truly working 80 hours/week as a PhD student, you should re-evaluate things. Some weeks I was in lab for 80 hours, but as a chemist/biochemist there is a lot of downtime (playing computer games while waiting for stupid HPLC to finish, etc). You could easily pop over to a local hospital for some shadowing on the clinical side. Or you could see if you could get a collaboration between the chemistry and medical colleges at your school. You don't need much experience given your history, since you can simply say I tried the PhD thing, wasn't happy with my career trajectory, and realized medicine was for me. You can say whatever you want to or need to, in order to get in, but make sure you convince yourself that this is your desired path and not some ADCOM.

However, more importantly is not the fact that can you get into medical school but is it what you want for your career. I am enjoying my pathway right now, but I'd be lying if I didn't say it was hard. Loans, time away from my wife, a TON of time memorizing BS for competency exams, etc. I say this because I know several of the PhD-to-MD posters here have reiterated my feelings in that this is a grueling, live consuming process. I am holding up ok, but several of my classmates that are pharmD to MD are regretting it. Giving up a cush life for something that is much less predictable and maybe not as lucrative.

 

[Predocpremed]

Followed my same path, PhD chemistry/biochemistry and now in the midsts of getting my medical degree. Biggest thing I can say is find a few clinicians and academic researchers to see if you enjoy what they do. I am planning on an academic career, but I was surprised how different my bench work was compared to clinical work (personally hate clinical work, stupid statistics, but would enjoy a career as a PI managing several grad/med students). If you are truly working 80 hours/week as a PhD student, you should re-evaluate things. Some weeks I was in lab for 80 hours, but as a chemist/biochemist there is a lot of downtime (playing computer games while waiting for stupid HPLC to finish, etc). You could easily pop over to a local hospital for some shadowing on the clinical side. Or you could see if you could get a collaboration between the chemistry and medical colleges at your school. You don't need much experience given your history, since you can simply say I tried the PhD thing, wasn't happy with my career trajectory, and realized medicine was for me. You can say whatever you want to or need to, in order to get in, but make sure you convince yourself that this is your desired path and not some ADCOM.

Thanks for sharing your experience. You are certainly right that I can find the time to do some shadowing. If you don't mind me asking, how/ when did you decide to pursue a medical degree? During or after graduate school? Or was MD/PhD your goal from the start?

Would you (or anyone that has gone down this path) mind sharing a little bit about the theme of your personal statement(s)? Sorry if these questions are too personal, feel free to disregard.

 

[Petypet]

Thanks for sharing your experience. You are certainly right that I can find the time to do some shadowing. If you don't mind me asking, how/ when did you decide to pursue a medical degree? During or after graduate school? Or was MD/PhD your goal from the start?

Would you (or anyone that has gone down this path) mind sharing a little bit about the theme of your personal statement(s)? Sorry if these questions are too personal, feel free to disregard.

Applied to Md and PhD programs coming out of undergrad. The PhD program I went to was a great seller, free tuition, no loans, stipend, etc, meanwhile med school was 200-300k in loans. I guess the loans scared me off at the time (and frankly they still scare the crap out of me). Once I realized that I would be working for 40k for 4-6 years as a post doc just to enter academia (or taking crap jobs until something in big pharma opened), and then only to climb the tenure track, for something I didn't absolutely love seemed silly. The MD will allow me to do research, see patients, teach, and have a more balanced career (I hope). Not to mention being more stable than the PhD path. Coming out of my PhD program I applied to 100 jobs/postdocs, and got 5 or 6 bites and only a few offers (industry is a dying dinosaur). I did a post doc for a year, and while I liked it, I had to change paths.

I frankly don't remember my personal statement, but it just needs to be to the heart, truthful, and non-compromising. Meaning don't tell them you are in it for job security and better pay. They hate that. "I enjoy multiple facets of medicine, and while my path originally took me toward one branch of medicine, I realized that my future path is intended to go elsewhere". yada yada yada

The PS is not the issue, the issue is you make sure you are 100% committed to the long haul. Good grades, PhD, and decent MCAT will get you in.

 

[Fedaykin]

Just be honest about it. You tried a PhD because you thought that was the career you wanted but discovered it wasn't for you.

I would disagree with this. It invites the question "then how do you know you won't get to your third or fourth year in med school and decide the same about medicine?" and eliminates any good answer. The obvious answer I think is to point out shadowing, but presumably he didn't get into his PhD program without previous exposure and experience either, and that didn't end up meaning anything in the end.

I'm not saying he shouldn't be honest about the matter. You should always be honest. But I think there must be a better way to frame it than that.

 

[Fedaykin]

Anyways, my story was kind of similar to /u/Petypet. I got accepted to an awesome PhD program with everything taken care of, but I wasn't qualified for an acceptance to medical school. I have a complicated backstory and was highly qualified for one but not the other.

I agree with most the other advice you've gotten here. Be prepared to answer the question of why the change from organic chemistry to being a physician. Your challenge will be to articulate it in a way that leaves an interviewer with no question about whether or not you'll just discover that medicine also isn't for you after three years of four. There are definite wrong answers but there's no one definitive right answer. As you get closer you can bounce things off of people here and see what you come up with. I'd also recommend popping into www.OldPreMeds.com- lots of career changers there and I've gotten a lot of good info from that community in addition to this one. There are a few of us who post on both boards as well.

Aside from that, you should do some reading up on the "typical" requirements that premedical students face. You may have a different pathway than they do, but you'll still need to tick off the same checkboxes on your application as them. I'm sure your grades are adequate but if you haven't really thought about being a doctor until recently, you may be lacking in volunteer work or clinical shadowing.

Lastly, food for thought. I know a number of professors in my school's MD program and a few on its admissions committee. On of the people on the latter has told me that holding a PhD is the closest to an inside track that an applicant can have. Most applicants are in a naturally subservient position; when a PhD applies, the people judging your candidacy are your peers. Don't forget that.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

I would disagree with this. It invites the question "then how do you know you won't get to your third or fourth year in med school and decide the same about medicine?" and eliminates any good answer. The obvious answer I think is to point out shadowing, but presumably he didn't get into his PhD program without previous exposure and experience either, and that didn't end up meaning anything in the end.

I'm not saying he shouldn't be honest about the matter. You should always be honest. But I think there must be a better way to frame it than that.

You bring a valid point. Do you have any suggests on how to address it? It's always tricky leaving a career to go into medicine.

 

[Fedaykin]

You bring a valid point. Do you have any suggests on how to address it? It's always tricky leaving a career to go into medicine.

The difficulty is what I alluded to in my subsequent post- there's not a definitive "right" answer yet there are plenty of wrong ones. I think the right way isn't one particular phrase but a particular strategy. Career interests don't change. They evolve. It's not a matter of getting tired of one toy and looking for a new one. It's a matter of undergoing personal growth and honing in on what your passion is. Rather than changing what your career plans are, over time your interests regress toward what it is you truly want to do.

Take my case. Most of my career prior to going back to school was in education. Was a tutor and T/A all through college. Went to teach HS because I was burnt out and down on my chances to get into medical school. Found out I despise teaching high school. Went through an MS and now I'm in a PhD program, and tutoring/TAing again. I genuinely love teaching and I really do have it in my DNA. Over time, I've come to realize learned my place is in academic medicine. It's a narrative I'm still fleshing out a bit, and have a few more years to go still. But the point is that OP doesn't sound like his current career was a mistake that he's running from. It sounds like it still holds value for him, and as such the challenge is to do some soul searching and decide for himself what its relevance is for him now and will be in the future.

OP said he has a strong appreciation for organic chemistry but doesn't want to spend a career with it. My interpretation is that he likes theory but doesn't want to spend the rest of his days at a fume hood. He's in luck because there's a ton of relevance for organic chemistry in medicine. What he should be looking for are avenues in medicine that will allow him to use his organic chemistry knowledge to his benefit and see what he's drawn to. If he's thinking a clinical career, nuclear medicine and anesthesiology come right to mind. I think there are a few toxicology-esque subspecialties out there but can't recall specifics. Medical genetics and rheumatology are somewhat more stretches but also on the table. Maybe he's not interested in clinical practice. There's a huge market for doctors to be involved in clinical trials- maybe when he applies to MD programs, he applies to dual degree programs that'll also net him an MS or MPH in clinical trials management or pharmacology or something of that nature. OP sounds like he's at the very beginning of looking so I'm not going to beat him up over not knowing his options yet; of course, looking is the next task.

 

[Predocpremed]

This is all really great advice! It's funny you should mention nuclear medicine because that has always been a passion of mine. In fact it was the topic of my advancement proposal and I have a few other research proposals in the back of my mind. I will definitely look into this more.

 

[ChemMed]

Listen to QofQuimica. Her advice is sound. Pay attention to the price of the school you go to. Describe your desires well and clearly when you are putting your application together. Best of luck, it's a bitch road but if you don't want to do anything else with your life it is worth it I think, but that's only my solitary point of view, others may disagree. Welcome to a small group of chem PhD's won over by medicine.