MD after PhD?

[Dodohead]

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Ok, so I briefly searched the forums and found some links for doing your PhD after starting an MD program, but what about the other way around?

I seriously considered doing an MD back in undergrad a few times, but I received some bad advice from my adviser who told me an MD was out of the question with anything less than a 3.8... since I was doing ChemE, I knew that the odds of my graduating with that GPA were low (I finished with a 3.6). I took her advice, and didn't think too much about the MD, until my junior year when folks in my class were applying to schools and getting in with lower GPAs. But, by that point, I was on the PhD-bound track, and kinda pushed the thought aside again. I'm working on my PhD in Bioengineering now, I have about a year left, and I've been playing with the MD idea again now, but more from a scientific standpoint. I found that the classes that I took as a graduate student that I most enjoyed were the clinical based ones. And my projects have been slowly evolving towards a clinical approach, which I really enjoy.

So, my questions is... is it worth pursuing at this point? What would I have to make up to get into a decent program? Class-wise, I am short by Organic Chem II, and since its been a LONG time since I've taken the other courses, how much is that going to screw me up on the MCAT? Will my grad-level bio courses (mostly taught through the med school grad program here, and no, they weren't grade-inflated) count towards prereqs?

Finally, I've been going to my husband's med school MD/PhD orientation events this week, and a few people do know that I have been considering the MD route after graduation. I was told that it might be possible to get NIH or Howard Hughes funding for medical school, since my interest in medical school is to benefit me as a medical scientific researcher. Has anyone heard about anything like this? Or do you know where I could go for info? I do know that my school strongly discourages FINISHING your PhD before getting the MD in order to get into the MD/PhD program (in fact, there is a student in my husband's class who got into MD/PhD program while she was in her 4th year of her PhD - entering thesis year. She left her PhD for 2 years to start Med school, and it will therefore take her longer to finish her PhD, but...thats the way it works here, I guess). But is there outside funding available for those who want to pursue the physician-scientist route after starting down the scientist route?

Sorry for the long post! Thanks for any insight you might be able to offer 🙂

 

[Gut Shot]

1. Your advisor didn't know what he/she/it was talking about.

2. If you want the MD, chart the most direct course for obtaining it and go for it.

-Havarti666, PhD (2001), MD (2005)

 

[Neutrophil]

I love neutrophils, too! 😍 😍

Dodo, do you have any more into on this topic?

 

[Neuronix]

So, my questions is... is it worth pursuing at this point? What would I have to make up to get into a decent program? Class-wise, I am short by Organic Chem II, and since its been a LONG time since I've taken the other courses, how much is that going to screw me up on the MCAT? Will my grad-level bio courses (mostly taught through the med school grad program here, and no, they weren't grade-inflated) count towards prereqs?

If you want to do it, I would say to go for it. I would try to find time to take Orgo II somewhere, and this will probably help serve as a refresher for Orgo in general. Make sure you put aside alot of time for it. It wasn't easy in undergrad, and it probably won't be easy now 🙂 Take a review course for the MCAT. I liked TPR because it was classroom based, but others prefer Kaplan which is more self-study. Your grad-level courses won't count as pre-reqs, however they will be considered as recent science for your application. Other than taking Orgo II and the MCAT, I wouldn't worry about taking other classes unless you want to take them.

About the MCAT, I'd say the biggest obstacle to science PhDs taking the MCAT is a sense that because they have a PhD the MCAT should be a breeze. Don't fall into that trap! The MCAT takes preparation for anyone. There's a certain technique for attacking it that you can only get by studying for it and practicing it with practice exams and such.

Finally, I've been going to my husband's med school MD/PhD orientation events this week, and a few people do know that I have been considering the MD route after graduation. I was told that it might be possible to get NIH or Howard Hughes funding for medical school, since my interest in medical school is to benefit me as a medical scientific researcher. Has anyone heard about anything like this? Or do you know where I could go for info?

No ideas here. Sorry. The last I heard HHMI had stopped funding for MD/PhDs and it's very difficult to get funding for medical school becuse of the expense.

I do know that my school strongly discourages FINISHING your PhD before getting the MD in order to get into the MD/PhD program (in fact, there is a student in my husband's class who got into MD/PhD program while she was in her 4th year of her PhD - entering thesis year.

It's really rare for someone to jump from a PhD program into a MD/PhD program, especially here! I've seen many students rejected and strongly discouraged from trying. I wonder how it happened in this case... I would encourage you to finish your PhD before trying for an MD program, however you might want to try talking directly to the MD/PhD director to see what he has to say.

Good luck!

 

[Dodohead]

Thanks for your input, Neuronix.

I actually spoke with the MSTP director here, and he didn't have any good news as far as funding, or getting into an MSTP after my PhD. So, for now, I am going to concentrate on getting my thesis completed. Next year I am planning on doing a post-doc, and can concentrate more of my time on getting ready for the MCAT, and possibly taking Orgo II. Orgo I wasn't too hard for me in undergrad, actually. But I don't expect Orgo II to be too easy 5 years after undergrad!


Oh, well. If anyone else has any advice, I would be much obliged! Thanks again!

 

[Neuronix]

I actually spoke with the MSTP director here, and he didn't have any good news as far as funding, or getting into an MSTP after my PhD. So, for now, I am going to concentrate on getting my thesis completed. Next year I am planning on doing a post-doc, and can concentrate more of my time on getting ready for the MCAT, and possibly taking Orgo II.

I assume your goal is not to do the MSTP after your PhD (do you really want a second PhD?), but to get your medical school funded. Unfortunately, nobody to my knowledge is going to do that for you. We have a student in my class who was an all-star graduate student in a big name lab here, but she's also paying out the nose for medical school. The goal of the MD/PhD program is to provide integrated training from day one of both degrees. Of course, we do take some students from medical school into the MD/PhD, but it integrates better that way because the first two years of medical school come first anyway.

I wanted to add that it may not be a good idea to start a post-doc if you have the goal of attending medical school. Figure that you're going to go out of your field of research for at least four years (more if you do residency), and you'll have to post-doc again anyway. Further, most advisors are going to want to post-doc you to train you for a career in research, whether that's academic or industry. I think it would leave alot of PIs scratching their heads to see you go to medical school when you're finally nearing the point when you can get an assistant professor position. Just food for thought...

 

[zep]

Eric gave you some very sound advice and I may be able to interject a few more bits of info to reinforce and add to what has already been stated. I had a PhD and some post-doc experience prior to going into medical school. My observations:

1. There is very little (I never say no) funding for PhDs that want to get their MD. I always say that the ?serial way is the expensive way?. I had an NIH-HHMI predoctoral fellowship and figured that I was already ?in the system?, but they happily said that I could not get any money during my MD training, even if I continued to work in the lab.

2. Take a review course for the MCAT. If you are in a situation similar to where I was, then many of your basic science courses came sometime long, long ago so the review course can be viewed as forced review and test taking practice. The exam is not bad at all as long as you don?t make it more difficult than it really is.

3. I may provoke some nay-sayers here, but your PhD will help compensate for what you perceive as a not-so-stellar GPA (though it is not bad at all). My undergrad GPA was not that high 😉 and I had plenty interviews and acceptances for medical school.

4. Deciding to do this after getting a PhD was the best decision I?ve made in a long time. If you think that you are going to be happy in medicine, then go for it.

Best of luck 👍 .

 

[Dodohead]

I assume your goal is not to do the MSTP after your PhD (do you really want a second PhD?), but to get your medical school funded.

No, you are right... I don't want to do a second PhD. The thought in contacting the MSTP director was my husband's, as he knows him and was hoping that he might have some suggestions for *outside* funding. "Getting med school funded" sounds crude, but yes, that is what I am trying to do. Basically, we wanted to see if there were any outside scholarships available for PhDs who want to commit themselves to clinical research after med school. We thought maybe someone in the MSTP office would know of some.

I don't plan on having too much of a private practice, since I love, love, love, love research and want to devote my life to that. But I want the med school background so that I can do more clinical work. A life of research doesn't go too far in paying off med school loans 🙂 Does that make sense?

I wanted to add that it may not be a good idea to start a post-doc if you have the goal of attending medical school

You make a good point here. My current advisor and I have talked about my continuing in the lab for a year as a post-doc, and starting a more clinically relevant project, one where I can collaborate heavily with the med school. In my mind, I thought it would make sense to take the position, *particularly* since I am thinking of going to med school. It gives me something useful to do for a year, while I prepare my application (MCATs, classes, etc). With that explanation in mind, do you still think it would be that unwise to pursue? I hadn't thought that it wouldn't be, but I understand your reasoning.

Thanks again for all your help.

 

[Dodohead]

I had a PhD and some post-doc experience prior to going into medical school.

You had post-doc experience, did you find that hurt you in the process? As I said in my last post, I never thought something like that would hurt. But it may, and I want to know everything I can before making a decision.

2. Take a review course for the MCAT. If you are in a situation similar to where I was, then many of your basic science courses came sometime long, long ago so the review course can be viewed as forced review and test taking practice. The exam is not bad at all as long as you don?t make it more difficult than it really is.

Thanks for the suggestion. Do you have any classes you would suggest more than others?

Thanks again, to everyone for their suggestions. Sorry if any of my questions seem repeats of other ones on the forum. I am just trying to figure out how to start, and am feeling overwhelmed with everything!

 

[zep]

You had post-doc experience, did you find that hurt you in the process?

No, not at all. It was either that or working at McDonalds. j/k, but seriously, what else would you do? You will have a PhD so the postdoc is the logical next step, especially considering that your plan is to stay in research post-MD. It won?t hurt in my opinion.

My current advisor and I have talked about my continuing in the lab for a year as a post-doc...

This is exactly what I did. If you have an advisor who understands that you want to pursue medical training and is willing to let you take the time to prepare (e.g., MCAT, orgo II, etc), then I think that you are in a great position (and lucky, as I was, to have such a cool advisor 👍 ). My advisor and I had an understanding that some of my time would be devoted to medical school preparation, so everything worked out very well.

Do you have any classes you would suggest more than others?

If you are talking about the MCAT classes, I think that both kaplan and princeton review are pretty similar...what you put in is what you get out. Check the MCAT forum for the latest word on the street. I took kaplan and thought it was good.

 

[Treg]

Hi Dodohead,

I can completely understand where you are coming from since I was in your boat last year. I applied last year to my grad school's med school as well as a few others and didn't get in where I needed to (my grad school) but got a few offers elsewhere. Since I am not finishing up my degree until this year (5th), I have deferred an acceptance and am reapplying with a much better MCAT score to a bunch more schools.

I totally understand where you are coming from regarding debt, as this is a major consideration for me. I am hoping that with my strong research background, good GPA/MCAT, and URM status that I will get some significant financial aid offers. If not, there is an NIH program for people who commit to >50% clinical research when they are done that will pay back $25K/year of loans for up to 3 years. Hopefully GW's war spending won't kill this program by the time I would be applying for it, but as of now it still exists and would make a sizable dent into med school debt. Another thing to consider is which schools are known for having scholarships and promoting research. WashU, for example, has a series of full scholarships for women. They have a high MCAT average, so to be a candidate for one of these you need to really nail the MCAT. UPitt also has some great scholarships...

In terms of the MCAT, I tried to wing it on a few weeks of studying after several years away from the prereq courses, and it went badly. Then I used EK religiously on my own for 5-6 hours a day, 10 weeks or so, and did a lot better the next round. Since I was able to sell my stuff on ebay for a profit, my test prep cost nothing. Those TPR or Kaplan courses are great but are pretty expensive.

Good luck with making your decisions.

PM me if you have any more specific questions 🙂

Treg

 

[Neuronix]

With that explanation in mind, do you still think it would be that unwise to pursue?

It sounds like a good plan to me. This way you can do work, get paid, and still set aside a significant chunk of time towards getting your application in order and going for interviews. The key is having an understanding advisor, and it sounds like you're on the right track there.

Good luck!

 

[Primate]

If you love, love, love, etc science, then why not do a kick-a$$ post-doc and then research? The MD is a huge hairball to swallow (and to PAY for the priviledge) if you don't have a BURNING desire to practice clinical medicine.

IMHO, you'll learn enough physiology to ask relevant questions in a good post-doc, if you haven't already. You can be a clinically focused researcher SANS an MD.

Sorry to sound negative (I'm not intending that), but what you're proposing has a serious side-effect profile, with relatively little measurable benefit, looking long-term, that is (narrow therapeutic index). I'm just saying think long & hard - you may already have what you want.

Best o' luck,
P

 

[Dodohead]

Hey Everyone,

Thanks for all your advice. We're still not sure yet what our final plans are, though I have more info now to work with, which is great!! There's a surprising amount of misinformation out there, when you don't know where to look 😳

Treg, where can I get some more info on the NIH repayment program?

I really appreciate everyone's advice and help! Thanks again! 🙂

Dodohead

 

[Treg]

Here is the link re: loan repayment. They have changed it a bit but it comes out to roughly the same $$.

http://www.lrp.nih.gov/about/lrp-clinical.htm



Treg

 

[Dodohead]

Thank you!!! 🙂

Dodohead

 

[Stroganoff]

I have a question on MD after PhD:

Scenario 1:
* finish PhD, have lag year to apply to med school. list "PhD" on AMCAS. Pro: you have a PhD completed. Con: takes more time

Scenario 2:
* apply to med school during final year of PhD. Pro: you'll be able to go straight into med school after obtaining PhD. Con: you won't have that extra "grad degree" status when applying, even though it's extremely likely you'll finish!!

Does it hurt to do Scenario 2? Would my chances increase with Scenario 1? Thanks.

(I notice Dodohead is taking Scenario 1, and Treg is taking Scenario 2.)

 

[Treg]

I have a question on MD after PhD:

Does it hurt to do Scenario 2? Would my chances increase with Scenario 1? Thanks.

I can only comment on my experience. From the interviews I did last year, during my fourth year, I only received positive responses regarding my PhD studies. I think that once you get past all of your program's hurdles and are obviously near the end, it won't make a difference either way. Obviously, your supervisor's and other reference letters are most critical in conveying your likelihood to graduate on time and be successful thereafter. I think the route you take is most affected by the support of your supervisor. If they are not that receptive to the MD following PhD, finish up and then apply. If they are really supportive, they will try to help and that means giving you time to write the MCAT, work on applications, interview, etc.

🙂

Treg

 

[dr.z]

I have a question on MD after PhD:

Scenario 1:
* finish PhD, have lag year to apply to med school. list "PhD" on AMCAS. Pro: you have a PhD completed. Con: takes more time

Scenario 2:
* apply to med school during final year of PhD. Pro: you'll be able to go straight into med school after obtaining PhD. Con: you won't have that extra "grad degree" status when applying, even though it's extremely likely you'll finish!!

Does it hurt to do Scenario 2? Would my chances increase with Scenario 1? Thanks.

(I notice Dodohead is taking Scenario 1, and Treg is taking Scenario 2.)

I'm in between. I am applying now, and I do intend to finish before I go to Medschool (hopefully). I noticed now though most med schools require that you finish your degree before you can really enter. I think they are becoming more strict about this.

 

[pathdr2b]

I have a question on MD after PhD:

Scenario 1:
* finish PhD, have lag year to apply to med school. list "PhD" on AMCAS. Pro: you have a PhD completed. Con: takes more time

Scenario 2:
* apply to med school during final year of PhD. Pro: you'll be able to go straight into med school after obtaining PhD. Con: you won't have that extra "grad degree" status when applying, even though it's extremely likely you'll finish!!

Does it hurt to do Scenario 2? Would my chances increase with Scenario 1? Thanks.

(I notice Dodohead is taking Scenario 1, and Treg is taking Scenario 2.)

There's one more option, which I'm considering pursuing:

Scenario 3 - Apply to the MD/PhD program after year one in a PhD program and if unsuccessful, pursue option 2. 👍

 

[vwhan]

I second what Treg said. I received positive responses, as well. It might increase your chances of getting into med school with Scenario 2.

hany

I have a question on MD after PhD:

Scenario 1:
* finish PhD, have lag year to apply to med school. list "PhD" on AMCAS. Pro: you have a PhD completed. Con: takes more time

Scenario 2:
* apply to med school during final year of PhD. Pro: you'll be able to go straight into med school after obtaining PhD. Con: you won't have that extra "grad degree" status when applying, even though it's extremely likely you'll finish!!

Does it hurt to do Scenario 2? Would my chances increase with Scenario 1? Thanks.

(I notice Dodohead is taking Scenario 1, and Treg is taking Scenario 2.)

 

[j8131]

This is an interesting thread related to my own situation. I was planning to start a PhD program but now I?m having doubts because my research interests have become so clinical and it seems that once you start a PhD program it?s hard to switch. I think MD/PhD would be better, possibly even just MD. But if I switch I have a couple requirements to finish, MCAT . . . A couple more years when all is said and done, plus lots of debt. Curious to have input on my situation from anyone on this board

1. Why is it so hard to switch from PhD to MD/PhD and is the difficulty just for funded (MSTP, etc.) programs? I was considering starting grad school and applying to med schools in the same geographic area. Is it really impossible to start the PhD and then apply to MD programs for a joint degree? It?s fine for a 5th year GS student to finish first, but pretty discouraging for someone just starting.

2. Cornell has a program to let a few students ?sort of? do an MD/PhD (most of the MD is done after the PhD, but at least there?s no big lag). Any exp. with this program. Are there ANY others like it?
http://biomedsci.cornell.edu/graduate_school/html/14804.cfm

3. My experience is that if you want a clinical focus in your research, it helps tremendously, both in terms of funding and job opportunities, to have an MD. And there are many programs, obviously, for MDs to become involved in research, even to earn PhDs. Given that, would it make sense to do an MD as a substitute for the PhD, for those interested in clinically oriented research? And how much value does the MD have for this without residency and board certification?

Thanks!