MD and DO SALARIES THE SAME?

[red-rat]

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Do MD's and DO's make the same amount after residency? Assuming they are in the same specialty.

 

[edinOH]

yes.

 

[DrQuinn]

I concur.

Q, DO

 

[sasevan]

Hi QuinnNSU,

Recently heard that in Florida to be a licensed DO one needs to do an osteopathic internship; does that mean that if one then wants to do an allopathic residency that the internship year has to be done twice?
Also, if one is a licensed DO in, let's say NY-where an osteo internship isn't required-if one then moves to FL can they work as a DO?
Best regards.
P.S. Am asking because I'm considering doing med school at either NSUCOM or NYCOM but would like to do a psych residency at UM/JMH and work in FL.

 

[normalforce]

You can make more as a DO if you use OMM in your practice. It bills out at about $40 per area treated. Treat neck back ribs and you just make $120. Which about half of it will come back to you from medicare, insurance. etc... Something to think about.

Normalforce

 

[dry dre]

Originally posted by red-rat
Do MD's and DO's make the same amount after residency? Assuming they are in the same specialty.

I think generally the fact that DOs tend to choose lower-paying specialties (like family practice) accounts for the common perception that DOs make less. Insurance companies and the govt don't make the DO/MD distinction.

I'd be careful/research the billing x3 issue for one session.

 

[juddson]

This is purely anecdotal mind you.

I've known about 5 DO's and 15 MD's in my life, and my impression was that the DO's made tons more than the MD's. Of course specialty matters, and i can't account for all of that. But the sepcialty for specialty, it just seemed the DO's did better.

Part of it may have come down to the fact that the DO's seemed to be more likely to own thier own practice (and in two cases, seemed to own several - not sure how that worked), whereas the MD's worked for a hospital or were part of a large group with a lot of weight.

Judd

 

[ice_23]

Originally posted by juddson
This is purely anecdotal mind you.

I've known about 5 DO's and 15 MD's in my life, and my impression was that the DO's made tons more than the MD's. Of course specialty matters, and i can't account for all of that. But the sepcialty for specialty, it just seemed the DO's did better.

Part of it may have come down to the fact that the DO's seemed to be more likely to own thier own practice (and in two cases, seemed to own several - not sure how that worked), whereas the MD's worked for a hospital or were part of a large group with a lot of weight.

Judd

This is a real question, and not me being argumentative 🙂:

If this is really true (that DO's might make more than MD's specialty held constant), then why do people with high stats in undergrad typically choose an MD?

You would think that the economic motivation of making more money doing the same thing would drive more and more people out of MD's and into DO's. Is it just the prestige of being an MD (which applicants must weight heavily, if prestige is what's balancing out the fact that DO's are making as much, if not more, than MD's)?

-Ice

 

[DireWolf]

Let's put an end to all this before this thread gets out of hand. As juddson stated, his example was purely anecdotal. Salaries are going to vary greatly within the same specialty based on many factors (location, patient population, practice type, etc.), but MD vs. DO is not one of them. Reimbursements are equal. The ONLY situation this would not happen is when comparing MD family practitioners vs. DO family practitioners that do OMT. Period. Let's try to stay away from anecdotes. Like dry dre stated, the government (Medicare, Medicaid) and private insurance companies do not distinguish between MD and DO when it comes to reimbursements.

 

[Goofyone]

Originally posted by dry dre
I think generally the fact that DOs tend to choose lower-paying specialties (like family practice) accounts for the common perception that DOs make less. Insurance companies and the govt don't make the DO/MD distinction.

I'd be careful/research the billing x3 issue for one session.

Normal force is right. There are very specific guidelines for billing on manual therapy. It is done by body region.

Treating 1-2 regions will get you $21.27 from Medicare. If you did EVERY single region of the body, the Medicare rate is $47.41. Regular insurance companies pay from 135% down to only 95% of medicare's rates. I got these numbers from a lecture this year, sources lacking (sorry).

Add to that the fact that recent surveys show 71-90% of DOs use OMT on fewer than 25% of patients as well as a similar predicted outlook by current osteopathic students (JAOA 106: 470, 2003), not to mention some docs don't even bill for it, and you see that OMT accounts for only a tiny part of DOs' incomes.

 

[VentdependenT]

I think the best place to get the straight answer to this question is in the pre-allo forum. Those insightful young go getters seem to be privy to all the pertinent information on those crazy zany osteopaths.

Your potential to earn an income is only limitied by your business acumen, not your degree. The neighborhood naturopath here probably makes more than my mother's highly decorated & brilliant oncologist.

 

[dbiddy808]

I don't recall where I saw it, but the average income of MDs is higher than that of DOs.

This can be explained by the fact that the high-paying specialties are more difficult to get into, and most program directors will pick an MD over a DO with all other application factors being equal.

I know that many DO's are proud, as they should be, but you cannot deny that there is prejudice out there when it comes to applying for residencies.

 

[Cowboy DO]

Originally posted by dbiddy808
I don't recall where I saw it, but the average income of MDs is higher than that of DOs.

This can be explained by the fact that the high-paying specialties are more difficult to get into, and most program directors will pick an MD over a DO with all other application factors being equal.

I know that many DO's are proud, as they should be, but you cannot deny that there is prejudice out there when it comes to applying for residencies.

sweet post. havent went over this a million times.
Thanks for your invaluable opinion<-----------------------sarcasm

 

[group_theory]

Originally posted by dbiddy808
This can be explained by the fact that the high-paying specialties are more difficult to get into, and most program directors will pick an MD over a DO with all other application factors being equal.

And therefore, $$$ of MD >>> $$$ of DOs
quod erat demonstrandum


I love how some premeds confuse opinion with FACT, or can't backup their statements with any objective info OR don't read the same thread that they post in (which has a better and more plausible reason for the difference in salary)

Oh dear, I didn't get my first choice of CT surgery or neurointerventional radiology - guess I'll have to settle w/ the low paying pediatrics instead

 

[Robz]

Originally posted by group_theory
And therefore, $$$ of MD >>> $$$ of DOs
quod erat demonstrandum


I love how some premeds confuse opinion with FACT, or can't backup their statements with any objective info OR don't read the same thread that they post in (which has a better and more plausible reason for the difference in salary)

Oh dear, I didn't get my first choice of CT surgery or neurointerventional radiology - guess I'll have to settle w/ the low paying pediatrics instead

Originally posted by red-rat
Do MD's and DO's make the same amount after residency? Assuming they are in the same specialty.

I would just like to point out the original statement of this thread....."same speciality"

 

[red-rat]

Thanks for the info 🙂

 

[EctopicFetus]

I would just like to point out the original statement of this thread....."same speciality"

Yes a primary care IM doc makes as much regardless if DO or MD follow his name. The reason for the question is because the more prestigious (and generally better paying) specialties are dominated by MDs (although there are usually a few DOs). This is assuming all other factors are equal hence same work done in the same location.

I will not start an argument as to why specialties are dominated there are other posts on this.

 

[VentdependenT]

This a great post that needs to keep going, lets not lose the impetus here guys. DO's still get additional income by the bone fairy which drops off poker chips which are good for play at any las vegas gas station gas station slot machine.

Best of luck.

Vent

 

[novacek88]

This is a real question, and not me being argumentative 🙂:

If this is really true (that DO's might make more than MD's specialty held constant), then why do people with high stats in undergrad typically choose an MD?

You would think that the economic motivation of making more money doing the same thing would drive more and more people out of MD's and into DO's. Is it just the prestige of being an MD (which applicants must weight heavily, if prestige is what's balancing out the fact that DO's are making as much, if not more, than MD's)?

-Ice

The motivation to apply to M.D. vs. D.O. has to do with greater ability to specialize and acquire competitive residencies due to the perceived clout. It has nothing to do with the earning potential of a D.O. vs an M.D. If D.O.'s truly had the same level of access as M.D.'s to certain fields and programs, you would see that the entrance stats of M.D.'s and D.O.'s would be closer than they currently are. For certain fields like surgery, D.O.'s are at a disadvantage because there are not enough osteopathic residencies and the allopathic ones still favor their own over D.O.. With primary care fields, it doesn't really matter as the vast majority of allopathic primary care programs including famous ones have no real bias against D.O.'s. But a D.O. orthopedic surgeon has the potential to earn more or less than his M.D. counterpart depending upon how popular he or she is with patients.

This is a common misperception made by pre-medical students. They forget that the vast patient population does not comprise of pre-med students who split hairs over the definition of M.D. vs. D.O. vs. IMG. Nobody thinks like that especially your patienst who just want to get treated as fast as possible by a physician they are comfortable seeing (a physician they personally like). A patient would rather see a DO who lives 20 minutes closer to his house and is known for being popular over the M.D. from Hopkins whose personality isn't striking in any way. Once you are in practice, your label means nothing. At that point, it's a popularity contest and the doc with the best personality and reputation will be the most successful.

 

[Sensei_Sevo]

The motivation to apply to M.D. vs. D.O. has to do with greater ability to specialize and acquire competitive residencies due to the perceived clout. It has nothing to do with the earning potential of a D.O. vs an M.D. If D.O.'s truly had the same level of access as M.D.'s to certain fields and programs, you would see that the entrance stats of M.D.'s and D.O.'s would be closer than they currently are. For certain fields like surgery, D.O.'s are at a disadvantage because there are not enough osteopathic residencies and the allopathic ones still favor their own over D.O.. With primary care fields, it doesn't really matter as the vast majority of allopathic primary care programs including famous ones have no real bias against D.O.'s. But a D.O. orthopedic surgeon has the potential to earn more or less than his M.D. counterpart depending upon how popular he or she is with patients.

This is a common misperception made by pre-medical students. They forget that the vast patient population does not comprise of pre-med students who split hairs over the definition of M.D. vs. D.O. vs. IMG. Nobody thinks like that especially your patienst who just want to get treated as fast as possible by a physician they are comfortable seeing (a physician they personally like). A patient would rather see a DO who lives 20 minutes closer to his house and is known for being popular over the M.D. from Hopkins whose personality isn't striking in any way. Once you are in practice, your label means nothing. At that point, it's a popularity contest and the doc with the best personality and reputation will be the most successful.

Hit the nail right on the head!

 

[NinerNiner999]

Unless the doctor from Hopkins has an equally outgoing personality...

 

[peehdee]

true but,

i think that people know 'MD' more than 'DO'. the public is naive about alot of things (shame, but oh well) and one of them has to do with degrees. i wouldn't doubt if some people think that the 'DO' is an optrometrist.
so given a choice between an 'MD' or 'DO' they'd probably pick an 'MD' if they had to do it just based on degree.

and i should add that most students probably do not go into 'DO' schools thinking that they will be better trained. if that were true the gpa, mcat etc.. would be equal. i think many go to it because they didnt' get into 'MD' schools and said, 'oh well, it doesn't really matter to me, what the degree is, as long as i can prescribe medicine'.

what do u guys think?

The motivation to apply to M.D. vs. D.O. has to do with greater ability to specialize and acquire competitive residencies due to the perceived clout. It has nothing to do with the earning potential of a D.O. vs an M.D. If D.O.'s truly had the same level of access as M.D.'s to certain fields and programs, you would see that the entrance stats of M.D.'s and D.O.'s would be closer than they currently are. For certain fields like surgery, D.O.'s are at a disadvantage because there are not enough osteopathic residencies and the allopathic ones still favor their own over D.O.. With primary care fields, it doesn't really matter as the vast majority of allopathic primary care programs including famous ones have no real bias against D.O.'s. But a D.O. orthopedic surgeon has the potential to earn more or less than his M.D. counterpart depending upon how popular he or she is with patients.

This is a common misperception made by pre-medical students. They forget that the vast patient population does not comprise of pre-med students who split hairs over the definition of M.D. vs. D.O. vs. IMG. Nobody thinks like that especially your patienst who just want to get treated as fast as possible by a physician they are comfortable seeing (a physician they personally like). A patient would rather see a DO who lives 20 minutes closer to his house and is known for being popular over the M.D. from Hopkins whose personality isn't striking in any way. Once you are in practice, your label means nothing. At that point, it's a popularity contest and the doc with the best personality and reputation will be the most successful.

 

[VentdependenT]

Lets keep it going!

 

[jhadow]

true but,

and i should add that most students probably do not go into 'DO' schools thinking that they will be better trained. if that were true the gpa, mcat etc.. would be equal. i think many go to it because they didnt' get into 'MD' schools and said, 'oh well, it doesn't really matter to me, what the degree is, as long as i can prescribe medicine'.

what do u guys think?

In my experience, this is correct. Most highly competitive students don't bother with applying to DO schools. At Arizona State (5th largest University in the US) those primarily choosing DO, seemed to be either strongly desiring the "holisitic" approach to medicine or felt they weren't a strong candidate but wanted to be a doctor nonetheless.

I applied DO because the bottom-line for me was being a doctor and working in healthcare etc. When I got my first MD acceptance, I dropped my DO apps. The DO schools seem to cost MORE (the two I applied to were 30K/year // are there any state DO schools?), but give you fewer options afterward. The first state schools I was accepted to were both much cheaper than 30K, about 13k and 22k/year.

 

[stoic]

This thread has gone on for an awefully long time considering that it could have been aswered and finished with a simple "yes."

 

[2005]

Hi QuinnNSU,

Recently heard that in Florida to be a licensed DO one needs to do an osteopathic internship; does that mean that if one then wants to do an allopathic residency that the internship year has to be done twice?
Also, if one is a licensed DO in, let's say NY-where an osteo internship isn't required-if one then moves to FL can they work as a DO?
Best regards.
P.S. Am asking because I'm considering doing med school at either NSUCOM or NYCOM but would like to do a psych residency at UM/JMH and work in FL.

Yes, if you want to work in Florida as a DO you must have completed a DO internship. Most allopathic programs will require you to repeat that year when you start their program. Some programs may give you credit or partial credit for that year. Also, some programs are dually accredited, so that can save a lot of problems.

 

[timtye78]

ugh...more DO vs MD B$. 😴

Why must some people continually emphasize their belief that DOs are still the ones who just couldn't get in to MD school?

Everyone needs to realize something: Premedicine advisors and practicing clinicians are telling premed students to simply go to the first place they get in, whether it be DO/MD. If you draw conclusions about the intials remember some of these supposedly academically superior docs are IMGs,FMGs, who earn degrees with 'weird' initials such as MBBS, etc- the kicker is that these people come over to the US with NON "Doctor of Medicine (MD)" degrees, and just "tack-on" the MD initial here in the US. If I was an MD I think I would be more offended by that.Whatever..lets move on please
Thanks 😎

 

[timtye78]

Yes, if you want to work in Florida as a DO you must have completed a DO internship. Most allopathic programs will require you to repeat that year when you start their program. Some programs may give you credit or partial credit for that year. Also, some programs are dually accredited, so that can save a lot of problems.

Even more info regarding this: Another simple approach is do your intern year wherever you like and simply apply to the AOA for the dual accredidation. My advisor told me that requirements "are loose and mainly consist of filling out the application."

Also, if you do your residency in a state where the DOs license their own, eg OK (where I am at, every intern year is 'approved' otherwise as the new resident you will not be able to obtain your basic medical license and will not be able to progress in your program. Obviously, you must fufill state requirements to practice in the state of your preference.
Good luck!

 

[OzDDS]

ugh...more DO vs MD B$. 😴

Why must some people continually emphasize their belief that DOs are still the ones who just couldn't get in to MD school?

Everyone needs to realize something: Premedicine advisors and practicing clinicians are telling premed students to simply go to the first place they get in, whether it be DO/MD. If you draw conclusions about the intials remember some of these supposedly academically superior docs are IMGs,FMGs, who earn degrees with 'weird' initials such as MBBS, etc- the kicker is that these people come over to the US with NON "Doctor of Medicine (MD)" degrees, and just "tack-on" the MD initial here in the US. If I was an MD I think I would be more offended by that.Whatever..lets move on please
Thanks 😎

British System MBBS = US System MD... Simple as that!

obviously your not very cultured.

As a matter of fact, I'm surprised that more british docs are not more angry that when US docs go to practice in the UK they keep the MD initials when in reality MD is a higher research degree in the Uk similar to a PhD degree here in the US.

Are you claiming that graduates of the U of London, Cambridge, Oxford medical schools are "lower" than you or less educated doctors because when they graduate from medical school they recieve a bachelor degree? Both the MD in the US and the MBBS are both "undergraduate medical degrees" representing the same level of medical education.

 

[Sensei_Sevo]

Are you claiming that graduates of the U of London, Cambridge, Oxford medical schools are "lower" than you or less educated doctors because when they graduate from medical school they recieve a bachelor degree? Both the MD in the US and the MBBS are both "undergraduate medical degrees" representing the same level of medical education.

I don't think he was saying that at all..... 🙄 Get off your soapbox, reread the post then jump in with more self-righteous indignation!

 

[OzDDS]

I don't think he was saying that at all..... 🙄 Get off your soapbox, reread the post then jump in with more self-righteous indignation!

of these supposedly academically superior docs are IMGs,FMGs, who earn degrees with 'weird' initials such as MBBS, etc- the kicker is that these people come over to the US with NON "Doctor of Medicine (MD)" degrees, and just "tack-on" the MD initial here in the US. If I was an MD I think I would be more offended by that.

Not on a soapbox.. Just correcting the uneducated poster. if MBBS = MD then british system docs don't "tak on anything attitional"... but it would be the other way around if US docs practiced in the UK and advertised themsleves as MDs.

🙁 When the post is written in CAPS "NON "Doctor of Medicine (MD)" and the fact that he/she claimed they would be offended, if a british doc used the designation. I wanted to point out the error in their logic. 😎

 

[timtye78]

Dr.Sevo is right. I can understand your point, OZDDS. Let me clear it up a bit 🙂 You used the "equals" sign in your post. So is it logical to say that DO=MD=MBBS or vice versa? Should we ALL do away with initials that basically mean the same thing? Including DOs? The sum of all of this is confusion!


I have plenty of FMG attendings, and I have plenty of respect for their knowledge. My point is simply it is immature to use the initials behind a name to make assumptions about people, as well as use these initials to compare people you don't know or have ever met. Too many people, at every level, hold to a logically dead belief that DOs are simply MD rejects. True for some, not true for a lot. Used to be more true than now for sure. True that some program directors somewhere still use it to make choices-their right, but unjustified. Many people here know DOs who blow the USMLE out of the water.

My point is this. MD is a designation/abbreviation specifically for the "Doctorate of Medicine" degree in the US. This is what I was told by a friend I went to undergrad with. "I couldn't get in to American med school so I applied and got into med school in Scotland, when I come back, I am allowed to use the MD because most people in the US don't know what an MBBS is. "

Hmmm...interesting idea...maybe the same situation for DO physicians?
I personally agree that the "DO" designation was a bad choice for lay people.
Too many incorrect interpretations by lay people, and understandably so.
"Doctor of Optometry" Doctor of Osteopathy-"Does this mean 'bone disease' doc?" I have heard lay people ask the question "So your not an MD, so you're not a medical doctor." Many, many people think MD means "Medical Doctor"-literally, and the next conclusion is that anything else isn't!


Let me tell you, I sit twice a week with about 20-30 people with "MD" on their badges. They cannot answer 1/10 of the pimping in grand rounds as opposed to the 4 American DOs and 2 American MDs who sit in the same room with them day after day. They happen to be from India and Pakistan, doing their required alternate pathway to even get into a program-any program anywhere! What would lay people think of certain MDs if they finally realized that in many other places of the world including some close by locations, that admission criteria and caliber of education was actually less than that of an American DO? Imagine that!

Compare all this to my friend and former classmate. Mr X I will call him ,DO,PharmD, who placed in the upper 2 percentile on USMLE 1/2, top 4 or so in class. Yet some people out there might think (by his DO) that he is some desperate "wannabe doc", and somehow incompetent or have less potential simply b/c the initials after his name.

All this said, I believe anyone with a basic medical education, given the time, opportunity, and training can become a skilled clinician in just about any field one desires. This can be true for FMGs, IMGs, and American DO/MDs obviously.
'Nuff said 😎

 

[timtye78]

In my experience, this is correct. Most highly competitive students don't bother with applying to DO schools. At Arizona State (5th largest University in the US) those primarily choosing DO, seemed to be either strongly desiring the "holisitic" approach to medicine or felt they weren't a strong candidate but wanted to be a doctor nonetheless.

I applied DO because the bottom-line for me was being a doctor and working in healthcare etc. When I got my first MD acceptance, I dropped my DO apps. The DO schools seem to cost MORE (the two I applied to were 30K/year // are there any state DO schools?), but give you fewer options afterward. The first state schools I was accepted to were both much cheaper than 30K, about 13k and 22k/year.

University of North Texas Health Science Center hosts Texas College of Osteopathic Medicine which is considered a state school. Criteria being funded by the state and striking tution differences for state residents as well as published bias for accepting instate applicants.

Tutition is about $8K per year, I believe identical in price to the other state MD schools. 👍

 

[OzDDS]

I have plenty of FMG attendings, and I have plenty of respect for their knowledge.

I see...

Let me tell you, I sit twice a week with about 20-30 people with "MD" on their badges. They cannot answer 1/10 of the pimping in grand rounds as opposed to the 4 American DOs and 2 American MDs who sit in the same room with them day after day. They happen to be from India and Pakistan, doing their required alternate pathway to even get into a program-any program anywhere! What would lay people think of certain MDs if they finally realized that in many other places of the world including some close by locations, that admission criteria and caliber of education was actually less than that of an American DO? Imagine that!

I thought you had respect for their knowledge? or are these not the attendings FMGs.. but the residents from india? hmm...

Too many people, at every level, hold to a logically dead belief that DOs are simply MD rejects.

That's unfortunant!

Many people here know DOs who blow the USMLE out of the water.

No one is denying this! what's your point?

My point is this. MD is a designation/abbreviation specifically for the "Doctorate of Medicine" degree in the US.

Wrong!!! MD is also the used for the "doctor of Medicine" degree in the British System which is higher designation than the US MD or UK MBBS.

Hmmm...interesting idea...maybe the same situation for DO physicians?I personally agree that the "DO" designation was a bad choice for lay people.Too many incorrect interpretations by lay people, and understandably so."Doctor of Optometry" Doctor of Osteopathy-"Does this mean 'bone disease' doc?" I have heard lay people ask the question "So your not an MD, so you're not a medical doctor." Many, many people think MD means "Medical Doctor"-literally, and the next conclusion is that anything else

No, this would not be possible for DO physicians because MBBS and MD are both equivalent allopathic philosophy medical degrees.. Since DO is for Osteopathic Medicine that wouldn't make sense to call yourselves MD.

Compare all this to my friend and former classmate. Mr X I will call him ,DO,PharmD, who placed in the upper 2 percentile on USMLE 1/2, top 4 or so in class. Yet some people out there might think (by his DO) that he is some desperate "wannabe doc", and somehow incompetent or have less potential simply b/c the initials after his name.

Again, that is unfortunant. But you choose to attend a DO school. Maybe you should be helping your school to educate the public to the distiction of a DO as opposed to bashing your US and FMG counterparts.

 

[EctopicFetus]

Another pissing contest. Perhaps both sides should realize there wont be an agreement today. Lets spend our efforts making tort reform a reality or convincing the government to allow us to write off the interest on our student loans or something else that is productive. This is a done and done thread as in people know both sides of the issue and disagree. Onward and upward.

 

[DrMom]

closing based on this sticky: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=133066