MD grad at the bottom end of the class - what residencies are realistic?

[lilnoelle]

Why can't your wife work while your children are in school?

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[TheMantaRay]

I'm having a hard time with your reasoning. I have two children ages 9 and 7. I am doing well in my classes and I have no shortage of time to spend with my children. I do not work and we are all doing very well making the bills. It almost sounds like you're using your children as a crutch or an excuse to do poorly. I agree that your family comes first, but there is still plenty of room for medical school.

In the above example, does your spouse work? If so, that's why things seem so easy. If there's a source of income other than financial aid, then the whole money issue disappears.

I don't agree with your claim that I'm using my kids as an excuse to do poorly though - not quite sure where that comes from in fact. I too would have ample time to study in medical school and be with my family if I had the funds available to pay for it all. It's got nothing to do with me wanting to do badly. Perhaps the title of the thread is misleading. The kids aren't going to make me fail. The lack of time if I have to consider working is what'll make me fail. I've been flexible with the family side of higher education before, but tossing working into that situation spoils the recipe somewhat.

Let me toss out some figures:

Med school student budget: about $15K to cover food, housing, transport, the whole lot.

My expenses:

1 - Mortgage. About $2K. I'm already $9K over budget.
2 - Food. $400 per month? Now up to $13.5K over budget.
3 - Gas. $200 per month? You get the idea.

In my rough calculations (which I won't bore you all with here), I'm running short by about a couple of grand a month. And that's short by a couple of grand in immediate costs, not costs that can be deferred through more borrowing. Remember, those costs are in excess of what financial aid will cover.

Where does that cash come from? (Seriously, does anybody know where I can get that cash from? If so, send me a link.)

I figure that if I get myself into tip top financial shape (that is, no consumer debt, no car payments etc.) before medical school, I'm still looking at a deficit of about $100K over the full four years.

Now, if I could figure out a way to borrow that $100K, I'd be set!

 

[TheMantaRay]

Why can't your wife work while your children are in school?

A 9 to 2:30 job would work, but it would bring in about $10,000 per year at most (before tax) at her current earning potential. It's still not even close.

 

[Blesbok]

I guess I'm screwed!

Looks like you need less time planning for med school and more time planning for a good divorce attorney.

 

[Blesbok]

A 9 to 2:30 job would work, but it would bring in about $10,000 per year at most (before tax) at her current earning potential. It's still not even close.

Have her teach preschool or something. $10k is still $10k more than nothing. You are going to want to ram your face into a sharp pole when $300k in loans to pay for school and support your family comes barreling down on you after school is finished, especially if you plan on going into a non-competitive residency.

 

[Blesbok]

In the above example, does your spouse work? If so, that's why things seem so easy. If there's a source of income other than financial aid, then the whole money issue disappears.

I don't agree with your claim that I'm using my kids as an excuse to do poorly though - not quite sure where that comes from in fact. I too would have ample time to study in medical school and be with my family if I had the funds available to pay for it all. It's got nothing to do with me wanting to do badly. Perhaps the title of the thread is misleading. The kids aren't going to make me fail. The lack of time if I have to consider working is what'll make me fail. I've been flexible with the family side of higher education before, but tossing working into that situation spoils the recipe somewhat.

Let me toss out some figures:

Med school student budget: about $15K to cover food, housing, transport, the whole lot.

My expenses:

1 - Mortgage. About $2K. I'm already $9K over budget.
2 - Food. $400 per month? Now up to $13.5K over budget.
3 - Gas. $200 per month? You get the idea.

In my rough calculations (which I won't bore you all with here), I'm running short by about a couple of grand a month. And that's short by a couple of grand in immediate costs, not costs that can be deferred through more borrowing. Remember, those costs are in excess of what financial aid will cover.

Where does that cash come from? (Seriously, does anybody know where I can get that cash from? If so, send me a link.)

I figure that if I get myself into tip top financial shape (that is, no consumer debt, no car payments etc.) before medical school, I'm still looking at a deficit of about $100K over the full four years.

Now, if I could figure out a way to borrow that $100K, I'd be set!

People borrow $80k on a regular basis. The other $20k can come from that $10k/year we just discussed with an extra $20k for extra expenses.

 

[Kris1]

In the above example, does your spouse work? If so, that's why things seem so easy. If there's a source of income other than financial aid, then the whole money issue disappears.

No... my wife does not work, but we don't have a $2000/month mortgage either.

 

[TheMantaRay]

People borrow $80k on a regular basis. The other $20k can come from that $10k/year we just discussed with an extra $20k for extra expenses.

That $80K has to come from a private lender though, and I can't find one. It can't come from federally-backed student loans because it's in excess of the cost of attendance that the school sets. I was under the impression that if the school says the cost of attendance is $50K per year, then that's the absolute maximum that can be borrowed in student loans, even if my actual need is, say, $75K per year, and even if I could theoretically borrow $75K and still be under my aggregate limit for federally-backed student loan borrowing.

Basically, I need a private lender who lends without regard to cost of attendance.

Any ideas?

 

[TheMantaRay]

No... my wife does not work, but we don't have a $2000/month mortgage either.

Even with a $250 per month mortgage, the costs of gas, electricity, food, clothes and whatnot for a family of four im my neck of the woods exceeds the likely $1,000 a month the school allocates for cost of living. The magnitude of the mortgage isn't the financial deal killer here.

Dude, if you've got some secret for making this work, let me know!

I think my next port of call will be the school's financial aid office - I might need to get their advice on how people get through this. My basic assumptions about borrowing and whatnot could be way off.

 

[SugPlum]

If you did not own a house and your spouse were few hours or not working, I would say that you could consider food stamps and welfare. That would help make ends meet while minimizing loans. When I called my school alumni at a brief fundraising job, one physician remarked about how food stamps and welfare helped his family while he was med school.

 

[pseudoknot]

That $80K has to come from a private lender though, and I can't find one. It can't come from federally-backed student loans because it's in excess of the cost of attendance that the school sets. I was under the impression that if the school says the cost of attendance is $50K per year, then that's the absolute maximum that can be borrowed in student loans, even if my actual need is, say, $75K per year, and even if I could theoretically borrow $75K and still be under my aggregate limit for federally-backed student loan borrowing.

Basically, I need a private lender who lends without regard to cost of attendance.

Any ideas?

Check out the education maximizer loans from BofA.

I do think that you will have a hard time borrowing that much, and rightly or wrongly the system is not set up with the expectation that med students can support families on loan money. My school allows us to borrow more like $2k/month for living expenses though.

Otherwise, I'm not sure what to tell you. Most people I know do not spend even 50 hours a week studying and would probably be AOA if they did, but then again you don't really know how hard it will be until you get here. I think it's foolish to plan on going to med school if you can't devote a reasonable amount of time and effort to it, and if you are not going to get any support from your wife on this it's going to be very very difficult. From what you've described it sounds like even if you get through the first two years you will have to either drop out or get a divorce come 3rd year.

 

[Blesbok]

That $80K has to come from a private lender though, and I can't find one. It can't come from federally-backed student loans because it's in excess of the cost of attendance that the school sets. I was under the impression that if the school says the cost of attendance is $50K per year, then that's the absolute maximum that can be borrowed in student loans, even if my actual need is, say, $75K per year, and even if I could theoretically borrow $75K and still be under my aggregate limit for federally-backed student loan borrowing.

Basically, I need a private lender who lends without regard to cost of attendance.

Any ideas?

Most schools set the cost of living for $20-30k over the cost of tuition. For example, my school costs just under $20k and we can take out up to $40k. Only $8.5k of that is subsidized, but the other part is still federally funded loans. Anything over that $40k requires a high interest private lender.

 

[Kris1]

Okay... here is my secret. My family and I get food stamps. Because I have children and because I am a full-time student we qualify for over $500 a month. I'm sure this varies across states and I am certain to spark some ethical debate among SDNers about using welfare, but it has been a HUGE help and one certainly worth checking into.

 

[Blesbok]

Okay... here is my secret. My family and I get food stamps. Because I have children and because I am a full-time student we qualify for over $500 a month. I'm sure this varies across states and I am certain to spark some ethical debate among SDNers about using welfare, but it has been a HUGE help and one certainly worth checking into.

I see you slept through your ethics classes. I am glad to see that instead of fending for yourself, you would rather leach off the rest of society.

 

[pseudoknot]

I see you slept through your ethics classes. I am glad to see that instead of fending for yourself, you would rather leach off the rest of society.

Well, you can't argue that he's not going to give the money back in taxes later on (unlike the average recipient).

 

[Doctor J]

I see you slept through your ethics classes. I am glad to see that instead of fending for yourself, you would rather leach off the rest of society.

I see it was Blesbok who actually slept through the ethics classes.

Please. If it allows someone to make a better life for their family then that's exactly what programs like food stamps were designed for. And to put it in some pretty elementary terms (since that's what Blesbok seems to understand about ethics), Kris1 will pay far more back into the system when s/he is a physician than the amount 'taken out' as a medical student.

You're this vitriolic against a medical student on the system, I can only imagine how cheerful you'll be to your Medicaid patients. Good luck.

 

[LadyWolverine]

I see it was Blesbok who actually slept through the ethics classes.

Please. If it allows someone to make a better life for their family then that's exactly what programs like food stamps were designed for. And to put it in some pretty elementary terms (since that's what Blesbok seems to understand about ethics), Kris1 will pay far more back into the system when s/he is a physician than the amount 'taken out' as a medical student.

You're this vitriolic against a medical student on the system, I can only imagine how cheerful you'll be to your Medicaid patients. Good luck.

Oh, give me a break. This is someone who has a college education, and the ability to work and provide for their family. Instead, they made the choice to go into more debt and stop working to go to school. I'm sorry, but I have to agree with Blesbok here. The "system" was set up to help people who really need it. Not selfish medical students who want it all, but aren't willing to pay for it, and instead expect the taxpayer to support their expenses. I understand that it must be tough to have a family to feed while in school, but you made the choice to go. Don't go to medical school if you aren't capable of paying for it without relying on the taxpayer to bail you out.

I'm assuming that Blesbok is angry because of the fact that it IS a medical student on the system, INSTEAD of a Medicaid patient. And he/she and I will "put back into the system" just as much as Kris1 is taking out. Why don't we get the same benefits?

 

[Blesbok]

I see it was Blesbok who actually slept through the ethics classes.

Please. If it allows someone to make a better life for their family then that's exactly what programs like food stamps were designed for. And to put it in some pretty elementary terms (since that's what Blesbok seems to understand about ethics), Kris1 will pay far more back into the system when s/he is a physician than the amount 'taken out' as a medical student.

You're this vitriolic against a medical student on the system, I can only imagine how cheerful you'll be to your Medicaid patients. Good luck.

These programs are designed for the people that are incapable of providing for themselves, he is fully capable of taking out a few k more in loans per year and paying them back through his future salary. He is no different than a person that doesn't want to work so they collect welfare instead, except instead of not wanting to work, he doesn't want to pay. What makes one medical student any different than the thousands of others who manage to get by without welfare?

 

[Doctor J]

These programs are designed for the people that are incapable of providing for themselves, he is fully capable of taking out a few k more in loans per year and paying them back through his future salary. He is no different than a person that doesn't want to work so they collect welfare instead, except instead of not wanting to work, he doesn't want to pay. What makes one medical student any different than the thousands of others who manage to get by without welfare?

You misunderstand the purpose of food stamps. Despite what you believe, food stamps [and other government assistance programs] have special eligibility rules for students. Most students are perfectly capable of taking care of themselves [after all they could just withdraw and work a fairly well paying job], yet they still qualify. Weird how the laws governing food stamp eligibility completely disagree with you.

Also, all medical students using federally funded loans are accepting a form of government assistance. The government pays the interest on your subsidized loans while you're in school and guarantees a low interest rate on your unsubsidized loans. And yet this form of government handout is socially acceptable and you wouldn't dream of denigrating it as 'welfare'.

When you turn down your subsidized loans in favor of striking it out on your own with private lenders thus sparing the taxpayers the burden of supporting your education, then you have the moral high ground and can proselytize all you want. Just don't expect many people to listen to you.

Sorry for the thread hijack.

 

[Doctor J]

Don't go to medical school if you aren't capable of paying for it without relying on the taxpayer to bail you out.

Wow, you just inadvertently slammed everyone who goes to a state medical school. Well done.

Edit: You go to a state school! Ah the irony!! Your education is supported to the tune of over 16 grand a year by those hard-working and long suffering taxpayers.

 

[lilnoelle]

These programs are designed for the people that are incapable of providing for themselves, he is fully capable of taking out a few k more in loans per year and paying them back through his future salary.

Not really.... yes, a med student can borrow extra money to pay for food and clothes for their children.... but not at rates much better than credit card rates. In fact, I've had to borrow about $10K extra in the last two years and have used credit cards to do it because I actually got better rates on cards than I did in loans or in refinancing my house.

I suppose you could argue that I will be able to repay my credit cards once I'm bringing in a decent income. True... but thats 5-7 years in the future. Not exactly an immediate option....

I'm not currently using any government assistance... but I'm not going to look down on someone else in a similar situation (with kids and a spouse with limited income) who does.

 

[TheMantaRay]

I'm gonna say that if I had to resort to food stamps to get through medical school, I'd probably work. I firmly believe that welfare, in all forms, should be given to those who cannot fend for themselves, not those who don't want to fend for themselves. (And yes, I have a problem with many of the plain ol' lazy people on welfare right now - they give the honest recipients a bad reputation).

$500 a month? That's 20 hours a month at a moderate $25 per hour. 5 hours a week. I think even the most hardcore student with a family could find 5 hours a week.

That said, each to their own. If a med student feels it's okay to go on food stamps, that's cool. I personally have my own "issues" - I feel it's okay to drive 5 to 10 mph over the speed limit. I feel it's okay to cheat a little on my taxes. Nobody's perfect and we all buck the system when we can.

 

[Blesbok]

You misunderstand the purpose of food stamps. Despite what you believe, food stamps [and other government assistance programs] have special eligibility rules for students. Most students are perfectly capable of taking care of themselves [after all they could just withdraw and work a fairly well paying job], yet they still qualify. Weird how the laws governing food stamp eligibility completely disagree with you.

Also, all medical students using federally funded loans are accepting a form of government assistance. The government pays the interest on your subsidized loans while you're in school and guarantees a low interest rate on your unsubsidized loans. And yet this form of government handout is socially acceptable and you wouldn't dream of denigrating it as 'welfare'.

When you turn down your subsidized loans in favor of striking it out on your own with private lenders thus sparing the taxpayers the burden of supporting your education, then you have the moral high ground and can proselytize all you want. Just don't expect many people to listen to you.

Sorry for the thread hijack.

Maybe you are too dense to realize this, but those laws are designed for single parents who are trying to further their education and during the process are physically incapable of providing for their family. If his wife worked at least a part time job, I would have more empathy.

 

[lilnoelle]

I'm gonna say that if I had to resort to food stamps to get through medical school, I'd probably work. I firmly believe that welfare, in all forms, should be given to those who cannot fend for themselves, not those who don't want to fend for themselves. (And yes, I have a problem with many of the plain ol' lazy people on welfare right now - they give the honest recipients a bad reputation).

$500 a month? That's 20 hours a month at a moderate $25 per hour. 5 hours a week. I think even the most hardcore student with a family could find 5 hours a week.

That said, each to their own. If a med student feels it's okay to go on food stamps, that's cool. I personally have my own "issues" - I feel it's okay to drive 5 to 10 mph over the speed limit. I feel it's okay to cheat a little on my taxes. Nobody's perfect and we all buck the system when we can.

Yeah, I imagine you could probably find time for 5 hours a week.... but you are going to require your wife to pull the majority of the domestic work so that you can find time to fit it all in.

 

[Blesbok]

Yeah, I imagine you could probably find time for 5 hours a week.... but you are going to require your wife to pull the majority of the domestic work so that you can find time to fit it all in.

I would expect that already considering she is a stay at home wife and he is a med student. If she stays at home and does nothing all day, he needs to find a better wife.

 

[Kris1]

Maybe you are too dense to realize this, but those laws are designed for single parents who are trying to further their education and during the process are physically incapable of providing for their family. If his wife worked at least a part time job, I would have more empathy.

She is a full-time student too. She was a single parent but we got married and I adopted the children.

 

[lilnoelle]

I would expect that already considering she is a stay at home wife and he is a med student. If she stays at home and does nothing all day, he needs to find a better wife.

I just found it odd because he says that he's the one that gets up at 6:00 to get the kids ready for school in the morning and he's the one that picks them up at school in the afternoon and takes care of them, puts them to bed, etc.... If this is the kind of schedule he already keeps, then how is he putting in 50 hour work weeks already?

It sounds like he's either exaggerating the time his children require of him, or his wife isn't pitching in a whole lot.

 

[Blesbok]

She is a full-time student too. She was a single parent but we got married and I adopted the children.

I am going to retract my previous statements. I don't feel it is wrong for you to collect welfare if you are both full time students. I apologize for jumping the gun on that one.

 

[Blesbok]

I just found it odd because he says that he's the one that gets up at 6:00 to get the kids ready for school in the morning and he's the one that picks them up at school in the afternoon and takes care of them, puts them to bed, etc.... If this is the kind of schedule he already keeps, then how is he putting in 50 hour work weeks already?

It sounds like he's either exaggerating the time his children require of him, or his wife isn't pitching in a whole lot.

I just hate stay at home moms like that. My friends stepmom used to stay at home all day. She would play computer games all day and then have the kids do ALL the housework. I wanted to punch her in the face. Needless to say she didn't like me all that much, because I didn't give her much respect.

 

[TheMantaRay]

I just found it odd because he says that he's the one that gets up at 6:00 to get the kids ready for school in the morning and he's the one that picks them up at school in the afternoon and takes care of them, puts them to bed, etc.... If this is the kind of schedule he already keeps, then how is he putting in 50 hour work weeks already?

It sounds like he's either exaggerating the time his children require of him, or his wife isn't pitching in a whole lot.

Thanks for the dissection of my personal life!

I take them to school in the morning. I get to work at about 8:00. I work until about 7:00 most weekdays. Some days, I get the kids from school (about 3:00) to spend time with them while it's still light and warm outside. (It's not so much the time that they "require" of me - they could live happily without me. I make a conscious effort not to be an absent father.)

Then once the kids are in bed (or sometimes sooner), I pull out the laptop, log in to work, and continue working for a couple of hours.

Some days, I get up at 5:00 to get an hour of work in before the kids get up.

At least one weekend day, I pull a solid 8 to 10 hours.

I have a flexible schedule - that's how I manage to pull 50+ hours a week. Wife picks up kids, helps with homework, looking after kids, cleaning, some cooking, going to store, managing the household etc. I help with homework, the kids etc.

Typical single professional salary family, to be honest.

 

[TheMantaRay]

If she stays at home and does nothing all day, he needs to find a better wife.

I just hate stay at home moms like that. I wanted to punch her in the face. Needless to say she didn't like me all that much, because I didn't give her much respect.

Are you sure you don't have any unresolved anger issues towards women? Maybe a rape conviction in your past? Did your dad beat your mom and you thought it was cool?

 

[TheMantaRay]

Getting this thread back on topic, I found out from the school that they typically set their student "living budget" at about $25K to $30K above the cost of tuition. That's far more than I had expected.

Say I can get $30K per year. That's like earning a taxable gross income of about $40K or more per year. Adding perhaps a private loan on top of that, or perhaps trying to eek a little cash out of my one sympathetic parent (the other isnt' keen to help out at all), I could probably make ends meet. If the Mrs. wants to pick up some part time work, that'd really help. And with me working during that first summer, things are looking far more possible.

And if I can convince the school to up my budget by including discretionary items such as child care (which I believe the school will be happy to include, seeing as the cost doesn't come out of the school's pocket), then I could up my borrowing by another $5K to $10K per year, give or take, which is the cash equivalent of a $50K to $60K gross income.

If I can't live off that, I need to get a grip on reality.

The best part is that I would be able to devote all my "work time" to school, give myself the best shot of doing well, and end up somewhat more of a competitive applicant for a residency that'll lead to good money.

Glad that's sorted out. Now feel free to argue between yourselves about the ethics surrounding food stamps...

 

[lilnoelle]

Thanks for the dissection of my personal life!

Sorry.... I didn't mean to. I was just a bit confused about your situation. Its different than mine.... since I'm not only a busy med student but also the major caregiver of my children. You sound like a great father and husband. Kudos to you . I wish my husband was half as involved as you are.

 

[lilnoelle]

If I can't live off that, I need to get a grip on reality.

The best part is that I would be able to devote all my "work time" to school, give myself the best shot of doing well, and end up somewhat more of a competitive applicant for a residency that'll lead to good money.

Sounds good.... I think thats what we were trying to tell you all along.... but the best source of information was your school - not us.

 

[TheMantaRay]

I'm not only a busy med student but also the major caregiver of my children.

My hat's off to you. I work but I guess I'd still be considered a secondary caregiver. Juggling both full-time mom and full-time med student is amazing.

Thanks for all the insight. I'm feeling a lot better now that I've spoken to the school and had a kick up the backside from some real med students.

 

[lilnoelle]

Juggling both full-time mom and full-time med student is amazing.

Theres no chance I'd be able to do it without daycare.

 

[Blesbok]

Are you sure you don't have any unresolved anger issues towards women? Maybe a rape conviction in your past? Did your dad beat your mom and you thought it was cool?

No, I just have legitimate expectations that my wife put in the same amount of effort as I do in raising a family and keeping a fit home. Maybe you should work on getting some self respect and you would understand.

 

[Blesbok]

Sorry.... I didn't mean to. I was just a bit confused about your situation. Its different than mine.... since I'm not only a busy med student but also the major caregiver of my children. You sound like a great father and husband. Kudos to you . I wish my husband was half as involved as you are.

That is impressive, but just not right. After your husband gets home from work, he should be doing the majority of the housework and childcare in order to allow you to learn. When you have a family, med school is more than a one person show.

 

[lilnoelle]

That is impressive, but just not right. After your husband gets home from work, he should be doing the majority of the housework and childcare in order to allow you to learn. When you have a family, med school is more than a one person show.

Yep, I agree. He does help some, especially the week before my exams. I wouldn't say that I do a whole lot more than I should need to, but rather that less gets done because I just can't do it all and he doesn't do a whole lot to help.

He does do some housework.... mostly project type stuff that I refuse to touch, but when it comes to day to day stuff and especially getting the kids ready for daycare, picking them up after daycare, getting the family fed, bathed, put to sleep, changing diapers, taking out the trash, getting the dishes in the dishwasher, etc its all me. And yes, I do get after him about it (he considers it nagging...)

Next year he will just HAVE to step up. Theres no other way.

 

[Blesbok]

Yep, I agree. He does help some, especially the week before my exams. I wouldn't say that I do a whole lot more than I should need to, but rather that less gets done because I just can't do it all and he doesn't do a whole lot to help.

He does do some housework.... mostly project type stuff that I refuse to touch, but when it comes to day to day stuff and especially getting the kids ready for daycare, picking them up after daycare, getting the family fed, bathed, put to sleep, changing diapers, taking out the trash, getting the dishes in the dishwasher, etc its all me. And yes, I do get after him about it (he considers it nagging...)

Next year he will just HAVE to step up. Theres no other way.

That is very noble of you for working so hard for your kids despite the time spent studying and going to school.

 

[TheMantaRay]

No, I just have legitimate expectations that my wife put in the same amount of effort as I do in raising a family and keeping a fit home. Maybe you should work on getting some self respect and you would understand.

My wife does put in the same amount of effort as I do. Just in different ways. And I don't have to beat it out of her either.

Perhaps when you've got a couple of kids, you'll understand.

(Jeez, I already feel stupider for having responded to this...)

 

[paintballdoc]

OP, do you definitely want to do medicine? My first thought is that most of the best students in my med school class were married and many had children. If you are concerned about the studying and are so/so interested in medicine, have you considered dental school? Not that dental is easier, but you don't have the stress of obtaining a residency (unless you are the top of your class and want Orthodontics). You also start making money earlier. I know you probably have thought of this, and if you still want to do medicine, my advice is try to do your absolute best and goodluck. You do not want to be stuck near the bottom of the class b/c this limits your field choices (even though you can still be a very competent doctor).

 

[lilnoelle]

That is very noble of you for working so hard for your kids despite the time spent studying and going to school.

I don't know that its noble.... a lot of the stuff I do because if I didn't, it wouldn't get done, and its necessary. So.... my house isn't necessarily clean, but when we run out of plates, I have to do the dishes. When my kids start looking dingy, they get a bath, etc. I wouldn't consider it to my credit. It just needs to be done.

Now if my marriage lasts through residency.... that might be something to credit me with. (only partially kidding)

 

[45408]

OP, do you definitely want to do medicine? My first thought is that most of the best students in my med school class were married and many had children.

Yeah, me too. Two of the guys I know that are pretty dominant in all of our classes have children (2 or more), are married, their wives can't work more than part-time, and they're actually getting food stamps as well. They both do extremely well in school - I have no kids, and I can't keep up with them at all. There's no reason to assume you're doomed from the start.

 

[45408]

Now if my marriage lasts through residency.... that might be something to credit me with. (only partially kidding)

 

[Blesbok]

I don't know that its noble.... a lot of the stuff I do because if I didn't, it wouldn't get done, and its necessary. So.... my house isn't necessarily clean, but when we run out of plates, I have to do the dishes. When my kids start looking dingy, they get a bath, etc. I wouldn't consider it to my credit. It just needs to be done.

Now if my marriage lasts through residency.... that might be something to credit me with. (only partially kidding)

It sucks, but I can't think of a better test of a relationship than a residency, especially a non-lifestyle residency. IIRC you wanted to go into path, right?

 

[lilnoelle]

you wanted to go into path, right?

Naw, I don't know what field I like. Probably won't be surgery.... (I have my kids to think about...) Could be about anything else. I seem to change my mind every testing block.... I just like a large variety of things, I guess.

 

[Wylde]

Maybe the OP doesn't want to spend years trying to get into and through medical school if he would only be happy in a competitive specialty?

While it's not a good idea to "aim" for non-competitive specialties, it's a good idea to make sure you're able to live with one of them.

You could absolutely love the idea of being a radiologist 60 hours a week, but if you'd hate doing x/y/z non-competitive specialties then you probably want to settle for something else.

 

[la petite mort]

I'm curious about how your wife feels about all these prospects.

I know you're being sensible, but it's a terrible idea to choose a specialty out of easy availability as the only criteria. It sounds like you've switched careers, why would you want to make the tough commitment and change of med school only to end up in another field you're not passionate about?

Of course, if non-competitives like peds and IM happen to be your inclinations naturally (like me), I get it.

 

[la petite mort]

Gah...this thread makes my head throb, between the arguments about not accepting food stamps (as if the US government were a beacon of transparency and justice. For real - if you're going to do something that will improve your community, take whatever you can get!), the guy that's putting down stay-at-home moms and the other dude who's patting himself on the back for getting good grades while having a 9 and 7 year old.

We don't really know that much about this poster. And God knows the parenting pressures are vastly different when you have older children (9) and, for example, a toddler. We don't know how old his kids are. My stepdaughter is 11 and I have seen her maturity and self-reliance strengthen on an almost weekly basis for three years. Yesterday she even made dinner. My point is, my boat is much different from lilnoelle's boat, and perhaps Manta-Ray's children are even younger than hers, in which case they need a LOT of attention and we should hesitate to judge.