MD in 2years in Carib. for DPM's, DO's, DC's, DDS etc.

[backdoc]

Hello fellow doctors!

It has come to my attention that a few med schools in the Carribean, notably Antigua and St. Kitt's, are offering Accelerated 2-year MD programs for individuals who already possess advanced degrees in non-MD specialties such as dentists, DO's, podiatrists, and chiropractors among others.

Apparently, you are given 2-years of transfer credits for the basic science and didactic portion of the medical program since of course you have already taken the majority of these courses in dental school, podiatry school or chiropractic school. Although you may be required to take any courses which you are lacking.
You basically don't have to spend any time in the islands at all!

The medical program begins by going directly into your clinical years at a US hospital. You may take your USMLE's at any time after enrolment.

I have confirmed from LCME that you ARE eligible to sit for the USMLE (Whether you get 80+ is of course a different story).


MY QUESTION IS THIS: IS THIS TOO GOOD TO BE TRUE???
1. Will you be accepted by any reputable residency program after going this route?
(My indications are that this may be a real problem)
2. Or even if you DO get accepted into and complete a residency, some states may not want to give you a LICENSE since you have not "officially" done your basic sciences at a "medical" school.

IF ANYONE HAS ANY FIRST HAND KNOWLEDGE ON THIS SUBJECT PLEASE REPLY......or even if you think you may have heard something.......lets hear from you

Yours in health
BACkDOC

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[lizzied2003]

i saw the same type of thing on one of the websites and it also applied to Nurse Practitioners and ?? Pa's. To me it's just too easy and even tho i have a ton of clinical practice experience I would feel ill equipped in the more indepth areas such as neuroanatomy etc. etc. Seems a quick way to take money from someone and i am not sure there is data of those who have actually done this.

 

[Fenrezz]

Originally posted by backdoc
MY QUESTION IS THIS: IS THIS TOO GOOD TO BE TRUE???
1. Will you be accepted by any reputable residency program after going this route?
(My indications are that this may be a real problem)
2. Or even if you DO get accepted into and complete a residency, some states may not want to give you a LICENSE since you have not "officially" done your basic sciences at a "medical" school.

Any DO's who even think of doing something like this should have their license stripped. No offense, man, but this post is embarrassing. Even the thought of this form of "drive through MD degrees" is ridiculous.

Too good to be true?? God, man, don't be so insecure with whatever it is you've accomplished with life. If you wanted to be a MD, you should have went to allopathic school. If not, be happy with what you have, it's more than most people in the world.

With all due respect, anyone who actually wastes two years of their life just to get "M.D." put after their name should do some serious soul searching. You went in to medicine for the wrong reasons and maybe it's time to consider a new career.

If this program is true it just goes to prove one thing for sure: you can say whatever you want about DO's, but at least everyone knows how they got their degree.

 

[neilc]

no state will recognize a med education for license that accepts "advanced standing" credit that is not issued from a recognized med school...

attending after a DO degree would prob be recognized, as that is credit from a med school...but, i cannot even imagine what would possess a legit DO to taint his degree by pairing it with something like this.

so, maybe you can get the degree, maybe you can sit for the USMLE, but that is as far as you can go. in fact, you can't even put the MD after your name unless you get the license (at least that is true in Cali.)

stay away from these programs. instead of saving two years, you will be wasting two more years. i would also stay far away from any other program such schools offer. if they care so little about the students as to sell them a worthless product, it is somewhere to avoid.

 

[Doc101]

Although I am also skeptical of such programs, allow me to respectfully play devil's advocate by presenting the other side 😛 . I think that most schools have special "advanced standing" programs. This is almost the same as accepting transfer students. Assuming the credits are from an accredited University, why would a qualified student be required to "retake" a course? Is anatomy much different in D.O., Dental, or MD schools? I don't think that it is a "short cut", but more of a transfer option. Would you also object to a D.O. student who transfers their credits after 1 semester? How about 2? So what is the cut off? And why would that cut off be any different if the person ends up getting a degree? I think that most of the basic sciences are very similar in alot of the medical fields, with the biggest difference occurring during clinical training. But I do agree with one poster who questioned the reasoning behind making such a move in the first place....especially if you are already a D.O. or have some other "advanced standing"? Maybe that is the question that should be focused on rather than if the credits should transfer?? My $.02

 

[Bull's eye]

Actually for graduated DO's it is only a 1 year post grad (internet with 2 weeks in antigua and $19k) "document" for treating those in underserved islands they also give you an MD. Unless you wanted to practice on the islands some day, I don't see a reason for a DO to go that way. As a matter of fact, even if you wanted to practice on the islands some day I don't see a reason in doing it. However, if someone wanted to be an MD really bad and couldn't do it through the US or through the better carrib schools, I say go for it. I am one of those people that do not believe standardized tests determine who is a good doctor, or if you partied too much in college you don't deserve to do what you want to do. Getting into a competative residency program will be no picnic for you though (stick with IM FP Psych). I would check their match lists for the last couple of years.

 

[LordLister]

I know a few general dentists and oral surgeons who have finished these programs. They obtained an MD degree within 2 years while working full time in their offices. They fulfilled their graduation requirements by working one weekend day (at most) a week at a local hospital and shadowing an attending. There are no examinations or suggested readings. I know of an individual who did not even spend the one day a week in the hospital; he asked a friend of his (an attending at a local hospital) to fill in his evaluations for credit.
As such, I fail to see the purpose of obtaining a degree where no knowledge is gained and no work is required. Instead of furthering one's career goals or expanding one's fund of knowledge, it appears to me that these programs only work to negativeley affect the merit of other individuals who have sacrificed time (years) caring for patients, reading, taking exams, and taking call.
I've heard that one may not use these qualifications to advertise their services unless they fulfill the requirements and obtain a medical license (steps 1,2,3 and at least 1 year of residency); however, the people that I know do use their degree's in advertising without fulfilling any of the aforementioned requirements.

 

[markdc]

Interesting concept... I find it curious that some replies have mentioned that it is pathetic for someone to be interested in such a school. Most dentists, chiropractors etc have all taken the basic medical sciences that are presented at first and second year in med school. It can be argued that some med schools present the material better but it is possible that the reverse may be true in other circumstances. Re-taking microbiology, anatomy, physiology and so forth is not too appealing for many so the appeal of a 2 year program is obvious. That being said, even if your knowledge was solid in the basic medical sciences, details will fade the longer you are out of school so skipping these first 2 years may not be appropriate even if it is possible.

As for comments regarding choosing medicine in the first place, that is the most ridiculous thing mentioned. Do a little research and you will find that the average person shall have multiple careers in their lifetime. Perhaps mds who decide to do a second residency are foolish as well?

The bottom line is not neccessarily the fact that the program is only 2 years but whither or not it is recognized and practical. Since your top concern should be the quality and type of residency that you can get into, those interested in this 2 year program should inquire as to the states that recognize it, the chances for the various residencies and the failure rates. However that being said, 2 years means less tuition, back to the work world quicker and 2 years closer to your career goals if you can actually get the residency you want. I would personally avoid such a school based on not wanting to limit my options but perhaps others know more about the benefits vs the downsides of this path.

 

[backdoc]

Greetings colleagues,

I appreciate all the controversy and thoughts negative as well as positive in this regard.

Let me tell you the specific website that advertises this program:
The specific url is uhsa.ag

I have been in private practice for a few years now, so this opportunity, if legitimate, would allow me to continue with my practice while earning the MD degree.

Allow me to share a few pearls of wisdom. While it may be undeserved in lieu of the fact that many exceptional clinicians and diagnosticians exist in the other healthcare specilties (DO, DC, DPM, DDS), the following realities do exist:

1. The MD degree brings added prestige and credibility, especially to the average non-healthcare layperson.
2. The quest to get published or obtain funding for research is seriously hindered if one does not have an MD.
3. Trying to get on state, local and federal committees such as the Governor's committee for physical fitness is greatly aided by the MD credentials.

So once again if anybody actually can get some real information about people in the program who have done residencies or have obtained licensure, please respond.

 

[LordLister]

I believe that Dr. Nick on the Simpsons went through one of these programs. Perhaps you will be able to find out what you are looking for by pursing this leed. If prestige is what you're after, you may be interested in buying a knighthood from a European country. Titles such as "Earl of Bletchingly" or "Viscount of Frankenbach" can be had for equal or sometimes less that the cost of a medical degree from one of the aforementioned programs. Think of the awe and respect you will inspire with a title like "Lord Back" Doc.

Lord Lister

 

[MacGyver]

Originally posted by backdoc
Allow me to share a few pearls of wisdom. While it may be undeserved in lieu of the fact that many exceptional clinicians and diagnosticians exist in the other healthcare specilties (DO, DC, DPM, DDS), the following realities do exist:

1. The MD degree brings added prestige and credibility, especially to the average non-healthcare layperson.
2. The quest to get published or obtain funding for research is seriously hindered if one does not have an MD.
3. Trying to get on state, local and federal committees such as the Governor's committee for physical fitness is greatly aided by the MD credentials.

So once again if anybody actually can get some real information about people in the program who have done residencies or have obtained licensure, please respond.

Thats exactly why you should go thru normal channels and go thru a full blown allopathic medical school.

I dont see what the problem is. If you want the MD, then go the route that everybody else has to get thru.

 

[MacGyver]

By the way, I'm curious as to which American hospitals have agreements with these foreign med schools to do the 3rd/4th year of training.

I was under the impression that if you went to a Caribbean school, you would have to apply for clinical externships for 3rd/4th years, and that those are harder to get for a foreign grad than a US medical student.

So do people who go to these schools get guaranteed training at a US hospital that htey dont have to apply for separately?

Which hospitals are these?

 

[Skip Intro]

The Facts

Be very wary of any school that offers "advanced standing" into their curriculum to medical professionals. This is looked on extremely unfavorably by licensure boards in individual states. Allopathic education, wherever it may be carried out, is a learning process as much as it is an exercise in acquiring information. There are no shortcuts.

According to the AAIMG, a non-profit group that not only promotes the interest and public education of issues U.S. IMGs face but also evaluates the more popular off-shore schools, the only programs that met or exceeded their standards during evaluation are on this list:

http://www.aaimg.com/list/meeting.html

If anyone is considering attending a Caribbean program to pursue their M.D., regardless of advance standing issues or whatever other reasons, I would strongly reconsider matriculating if the program you are considering is not on that list.

If you are considering such an "advance standing" route and before you waste a lot of time and money, be sure to check with the license board of the state in which you intend to practice to see if they will honor such a degree and subsequently issue you a medical license when you complete your training.

The Opinion

Look at the number of posts the original poster along with his subsequent supporters have. In my opinion, this is a thinly-veiled advertisement for some program that they probably want you to PM them about, and likely nothing more than a scam.

 

[Doc101]

Originally posted by Skip Intro
The Facts

According to the AAIMG, a non-profit group that not only promotes the interest and public education of issues U.S. IMGs face but also evaluates the more popular off-shore schools, the only programs that met or exceeded their standards during evaluation are on this list:

http://www.aaimg.com/list/meeting.html

If anyone is considering attending a Caribbean program to pursue their M.D., regardless of advance standing issues or whatever other reasons, I would strongly reconsider matriculating if the program you are considering is not on that list.

Look at the number of posts the original poster along with his subsequent supporters have. In my opinion, this is a thinly-veiled advertisement for some program that they probably want you to PM them about, and likely nothing more than a scam.

Skip Intro:

I respectfully disagree with some of your comments. Firstly, I am not a "supporter" or some other sort of advertiser of any school. I might not have many posts here, but everyone knows that's because I spend most of my online time at ValueMD .

As far as your points about AAIMG, I would be very cautious when when following their recommendations (that's not to say that some of their statements aren't true). A user named Beaker on ValueMD wrote the following. His original post can be found at http://www.valuemd.com/viewtopic.php?t=999 :

its common knowledge that AAIMG is a total SCAM!!! they give a bunch of deficiencies to schools and then charge for "site visits to reevaluate the deficiencies". its simple, if you dont pay they leave the deficiencies. if you do then they say that they visited "anonymously" and now it all checks out ok. then they collect again the next year. any information on their website can easily be collected from forum like this and from the schools websites without even visiting.

don't believe me? how about this. why does this organization have a .com ending which = company. that means they need to make a profit. how do they make money? nothing on the site tells you. and their web address is registered in russia, but there is no address listed. they used to have a bogus american address and bogus e-mail before. but people caught on so now they dont have an address and use a HOTMAIL account. p-leeaassee!

still dont believe me? fine more proof. from the post above it says
"Spartan Health Sciences University,
St. Lucia, West Indies, 1981"
this bogus company at least could have done their homework to get the official date right. everyone knows spartan has been around since 1980. i doubt that a legit ORGANIZATION like WHO would get something like that wrong.

not enough? also from the post above it says that spartan deficiencies include "No catalog and web site". i wish i had a scanner to send pics of the catalog i have sitting in front of me right now. but you can check out the website at http://www.spartanmed.org/

it also says "Minimal 32 month curriculum is an unrealistic, piecemeal approach to basic sciences" i dont know any school that has 32 months of basic sciences. spartan has 4 semesters of basic sciences = 16 months.

also from above it says that ross has a deficiency in "The medical school is located in an environment that provides a reasonable degree of safety for the student and family members." thats a great statement for someone who was probably never there. are there any stats or statements or anything. oh thats right they said they pretended to be prospective students and parents to gather info for us. so their information is all heresay and nothing official.

hate to tell you but the only thing they pretended to be was a legitamate organization that is just trying to help. its really a bogus company that is just trying to fill their pockets. dont fall for their scam!!!

if you still think i'm lying just try to find anything legitimate about them and put it up here for all of us to see. but i wont hold my breath. peace.

Hope this helps.

 

[Skip Intro]

First off, who the hell is "Beaker" and why should I give one iota of creedence to anything he says? Secondly, I would, likewise, admonish you to be "very cautious" if you decide to take Beaker's comments at face value. I would equally admonish you to be very cautious in taking anyone's opinion or statements on ANY internet forum at face value, mine included. Do your own homework. I find the information, based on firsthand experience, on the AAIMG website to be wholly credible and consistent with what actually goes on in the Caribbean. I have no reason to doubt their motivations, and I find their primary reason for existence to be completely necessary and inherently good in advocating for U.S. IMGs.

I will also say this. I have corresponded with the president of AAIMG, and I find Beaker's comments to be completely unsupported, juvenile, and just outright silly. My opinion is that Beaker is an angry little person who is completely off his rocker probably because the evaluation of his school was not so nice. I don't know, and frankly I don't care. His comments carry about as much weight with me as would Saddam Hussein's stance on humanitarianism. If Beaker (or anyone else for that matter) would like to substantiate any of his diatribe with facts (e.g., a link to a U.S. DOE website, a particular state's medical licensure board link, etc.) that indicates that any of the information on the AAIMG website is invalid, wrong, or otherwise misleading, I'd be happy to read it.

In the meantime, this excerpt, straight for the AAIMG website, should clear things up:

"AAIMG does not endorse any single school or program. It is purely an information source to assist applicants in making informed, realistic choices. All prospective medical students are urged to do their own investigation and draw their own conclusions by making a personal visit to the medical admission office and the basic science campus of any school in their final selection pool. However, it is the policy of AAIMG to automatically place in the deficient category any school granting advanced placement to allied health professionals. Likewise, any school with significant distance learning components as part of the curriculum or part-time attendance requirements is placed in the deficient category."

http://www.aaimg.com/evaluation/index.html

In light of that clear statement, Beaker's comments on ValueMD seem a little silly and immature, don't they?

Now, as far as the things in my initial response you don't agree with, perhaps you can list precisely what those things are and why you don't agree with them instead of making a blanket statement. I think this would be much more useful to people who are reading this post.

-Skip
MSII Ross University
Sequestered and Studying for Step I

 

[Doc101]

Skip Intro:

I didn't mean to upset you. I posted your quote that I RESPECTFULLY disagreed with. Namely, the fact that myself and others on this thread were accused of trying to advertise for this school. Those who have read my posts know that I always try to remain objective and never promote nor demote any school.

The other point I made was to be cautious when following the AAIMG. Just as anyone on these forums can post just about anything, so can the AAIMG.....but I never said they said they do. I just presented what one of our users posted (and many others have as well) as he/she suggested to veryify this and any other statements. And about your comment about Beaker, "My opinion is that Beaker is an angry little person who is completely off his rocker probably because the evaluation of his school was not so nice. " I might be wrong about this, but I'm pretty sure that Beaker attends/attended the same school as you, Ross University....but you would have to take that up with Beaker. Further, it is irrelevant b/c Beaker is not asking anyone to believe his/her statements, but is asking people to beware and verify this company's claims. I think Beaker has provided a better arguement than you thus far. How do you explain his/her findings of the AAIMG with regards to the report of the incorrect founding date of Spartan, the incorrect deficiency about Spartan not having a website (provided above), the .com instead of .org ending (which signifies for profit companies vs. non-profit organizations), the Russian site registration, no address or phone directory listings, Hotmail e-mail address, reports based on heresay, etc? And if you read the original thread of his/her post, you will see that these findings were in response to only the statements about the AAIMG that users commented about in that particular thread, so who knows what other findings he/she may have?

You say Beaker had no proof, but where is yours? If you believe that AAIMG is a legitimate non-profit organization, then by all means, convince us (preferably by disputing Beaker's findings and with something other than AAIMG's own unsubstatiated claims). Don't get me wrong...I don't necessarily buy that it's a scam....but I don't necessarily buy that it's legitimate either. But more importantly, I think that most readers have the same skeptism as well.

Look, I'm just playing devil's advocate to stimulate conversation about this subject that you brought up. I personally do not have a strong view either way (although I do resent being accused of trying to promote a school which I have never even visited). So if you'd like to take up the debate with Beaker, you're more than welcome (I'll even send him/her this way if you'd like). But I hope that you don't take offense to this post as this was not my intent. However, if I inadvertantly offended you or any other reader in any way, than I offer my apologies. Best of luck to you.

 

[sleep deprived]

originally posted by backdoc

"3. Trying to get on state, local and federal committees such as the Governor's committee for physical fitness is greatly aided by the MD credentials"

The chair of the medical licensing board in the state of NY is Martin Diamond D.O.

 

[Skip Intro]

Originally posted by Doc101
Skip Intro:

I didn't mean to upset you.

Why do you think I'm upset? Not at all. 🙂 We are discussing hearsay and opinions. I am just as entitled to them as the next person.

Originally posted by Doc101
I posted your quote that I RESPECTFULLY disagreed with. Namely, the fact that myself and others on this thread were accused of trying to advertise for this school. Those who have read my posts know that I always try to remain objective and never promote nor demote any school.

Fine. I think I clearly stated in my original post that it was an opinion. You are free to disagree with my opinions. I do not know you, and now that you have specifically and further clarified that this was the part of my post that you disagree with, I accept that.

Originally posted by Doc101
The other point I made was to be cautious when following the AAIMG. Just as anyone on these forums can post just about anything, so can the AAIMG.....but I never said they said they do. I just presented what one of our users posted (and many others have as well) as he/she suggested to veryify this and any other statements.

I couldn't agree more, but I am much more likely to believe a website like this that clearly states what they have done and how they do it over someone who has made some possibly fallacious deductions and faulty inferences based on some circumstantial information and poor detective work.

Originally posted by Doc101
And about your comment about Beaker, "My opinion is that Beaker is an angry little person who is completely off his rocker probably because the evaluation of his school was not so nice. " I might be wrong about this, but I'm pretty sure that Beaker attends/attended the same school as you, Ross University....but you would have to take that up with Beaker.

Curious comment. Why should I care whether or not Beaker went to/currently attends Ross? Is this a suggestion that all students from the same school should hold the same opinions and values? Please expand.

Originally posted by Doc101
Further, it is irrelevant b/c Beaker is not asking anyone to believe his/her statements, but is asking people to beware and verify this company's claims.

No, I think Beaker is making several de facto assertions that are not well-substantiated and calling into question the reliability and credibility of this organization.

Originally posted by Doc101
I think Beaker has provided a better arguement than you thus far.

Okay, I'm not really making an "argument", but let's take Beaker's assertions (that you've summarized nicely) and look at them more carefully...

Originally posted by Doc101
How do you explain his/her findings of the AAIMG with regards to the report of the incorrect founding date of Spartan, the incorrect deficiency about Spartan not having a website (provided above),...

I cannot fully answer this, but I can comment. The first finding is trivial, unless the incorrect date (I did not review nor do I care to) would incorrectly establish the founding date of the school in a manner that would suggest that the school is less than ten years old, a general finding that AAIMG would suggest that prospective students strongly consider when making a decision to matriculate. The second finding (i.e., no website) may have been corrected AFTER the report was issued. The information may not be up to date.

On a separate note, I contacted Dr. Moore several months ago to ask why the information for the St. Matthew's website had not been updated (they are now on Grand Cayman and no longer on Belize, and many of the deficiencies noted have been addressed). At that time, he assured me that they will re-address this when the next site visit is made and the school is re-evaluated. (I will further discuss the relevance of this below.)

Originally posted by Doc101
... the .com instead of .org ending (which signifies for profit companies vs. non-profit organizations),...

This is completely insignificant and irrelevant. There is no "law" that says a not-for-profit has to register their website under ".org" or ".net" or whatever else. Most users type-in ".com" and when a domain is registered many people choose this ending because it is the easiest to remember. My personal website ends in ".com" and I can assure you that I am not trying to make any money with it.

Originally posted by Doc101
the Russian site registration, no address or phone directory listings, Hotmail e-mail address, reports based on heresay, etc?

WOW! A lot of smoke... but no fire, huh? First off, many low-cost web-designers, as you may or may not know, operate in Russia... and India, and other strange and odd places. You pay them a fee to develop and maintain your website. This is not at all uncommon. Secondly, a Hotmail address, while a little bit "hokie" for an organization, further spares expenses related to website maintainence. These may appear to the suspicious to be suspect, but they certainly don't point to any wrong-doing or deception, which is what I believe "Beaker" is intimating (and has apparently at least planted that seed in several people's, perhaps yourself included, mind). There mailing address is in Carson City, Nevada. They have a way to be contacted. Why not get in touch with them directly and clear this all up for yourself in lieu of perpetuating outlandish speculations?

http://www.aaimg.com/contact/index.html

Originally posted by Doc101
And if you read the original thread of his/her post, you will see that these findings were in response to only the statements about the AAIMG that users commented about in that particular thread, so who knows what other findings he/she may have?

This is just wild conjecture. What do you imagine the AAIMG to be? Do you think they have some big office somewhere and are funded by countless donations pouring in? I doubt it. I think it's probably a few people working out of their homes who are probably U.S. IMGs that practice medicine in the U.S. and have extremely good intentions mainly to advocate for their fellow U.S. IMGs. This is not a big operation.

Originally posted by Doc101
You say Beaker had no proof, but where is yours?

Well, I'm not making any wild and potentially slanderous assertions about AAIMG. There website is either true, or its not. But, it is their responsibility to put accurate information on it, especially when they are making evaluations and claims about schools.

Simply ask yourself this: If the information contained on that website was factually incorrect, misleading, and damaging to the business operations of the schools in question, don't you think that all the ones that have this willfully incorrect and libelous information printed about them would be lining up to sue the AAIMG?

So, where's my proof? Well, I take the merits of the information on the page and the fact that it is still in existence as a statement about it's veracity. I'm not making a claim that it's incorrect, misleading, and wrong; Beaker is. I don't have to provide any "proof" that what they say is correct. Beaker is asserting that it's wrong, not me. Nonetheless, anyone can (if they are interested) verify, for example, the federal loan status information on the U.S. DOE website. Additionally, one can visit individual school's websites and try to corroborate the information. This is the individual student's and the AAIMG's job, not mine. And, seeing as the AAIMG is still in operation and haven't been sued out of existence yet, I'm more likely to trust them than Beaker's (or anyone else's) conspiracy theories.

Originally posted by Doc101
If you believe that AAIMG is a legitimate non-profit organization, then by all means, convince us (preferably by disputing Beaker's findings and with something other than AAIMG's own unsubstatiated claims).

Who's saying their claims are unsubstantiated? Beaker? You? The schools in question? I think they clearly state and substantiate themselves how they evaluate schools, and if they are not doing what they are saying then they are in a prime position to get sued out of existence.

Originally posted by Doc101
Don't get me wrong...I don't necessarily buy that it's a scam....but I don't necessarily buy that it's legitimate either. But more importantly, I think that most readers have the same skeptism as well.

That's fine, but misplaced skepticism (along with misplaced trust) is equally bad. Don't invent evidence and deduce reasons that may not be there.

Originally posted by Doc101
Look, I'm just playing devil's advocate to stimulate conversation about this subject that you brought up. I personally do not have a strong view either way (although I do resent being accused of trying to promote a school which I have never even visited).

Fine. If I hurt your feelings or stepped on your toes, I'm sorry. There. Better?

Originally posted by Doc101
So if you'd like to take up the debate with Beaker, you're more than welcome (I'll even send him/her this way if you'd like). But I hope that you don't take offense to this post as this was not my intent. However, if I inadvertantly offended you or any other reader in any way, than I offer my apologies. Best of luck to you.

Send "Beaker" my way. I'm not here much right now, though, because I'm studying for Step I (which I take in six weeks). I hope to see more "evidence" than I've seen so far...

 

[Doc101]

Skip Intro:

I appreciate your comments and explanations. Like I said earlier, I really don't feel strongly one way or the other, and I'm just presenting the other side from someone else's point of view. I actually misread the content on your post and thought you were trying to be hostile. The only issue I had was the one I already pointed out, but I think that we both agree that it was simply a misunderstanding.

In view of your upcoming exam, I'll leave things as they are and simply wish you the best of luck. But I'll look forward to some friendly debates in 6 weeks 😉 .......

 

[Skip Intro]

(con't)

Perhaps one who is making such assertions can start by contacting the American Medical Students Association (AMSA), where the AAIMG is referred to in a question to the ECFMG... (my bolding for emphasis)

AMSA QUESTION IX: American Association of International Medical Graduates (AAIMG)

A. Could the ECFMG grant special status to students graduating from a school endorsed by the AAIMG? Since 1999 the AAIMG has undertaken a rigorous and comprehensive accreditation process to evaluate foreign medical schools in the Caribbean, Central America and Europe based on numerous criteria. Such an accreditation process has long been overdue, given that WHO and ECFMG recognition of foreign medical schools is basically a formality once a school has received a charter from its home country. AAIMG will also periodically reevaluate schools having received both passing and failing grades, as well as schools which have recently been established, to encourage that certain standards are met and maintained. The AAIMG's list of schools is not complete, but it might be an excellent foundation from which to build on, and hopefully it can be expanded with funding from ECFMG. For more information, you can visit the AAIMG's website at www.aaimg.com

http://www.amsa.org/member/ecfmg.cfm

Hmmm... didn't "Beaker" say this about the AAIMG (and you reposted it here)...

its common knowledge that AAIMG is a total SCAM!!!

I guess someone, perhaps Beaker him/herself, better inform AMSA that they are grossly informed! I guess Beaker is far more plugged-in to the issues that face medical students than AMSA is, right? He said it on a web forum so it must be at least partially true, right?

Or, perhaps someone better tell Florida State University to de-list this website in their student advocacy...

The American Association of International Medical Graduates (AAIMG) has a useful website, www.aaimg.org, which provides balanced and current information about schools in the Caribbean, Central America, Mexico, United Kingdom, Israel and Australia.

http://med.fsu.edu/PreHealthAdvising/Spring02.asp

Or, maybe one should contact Harvard who quotes AAIMG on their premedical advisory board page... http://www.ocs.fas.harvard.edu/resources/health/Foreign Medical Schools.htm

But, WAIT! Uh-oh! I did find this page...

http://www.fowma.com/bogus_asso.htm

WOW! This pretty much says everything that is asserted by "Beaker" (and apparently others)... however, I happened to also browse the rest of the website. And, maybe, just maybe, this is a competitor of AAIMG? Hmmm. Hard to say. But, I couldn't find any information on the web about any lawsuits. And, apparently, FOMWA thought this was so important that they listed it twice on their (still under construction since 2002) website. It appears that they are setting up shop to offer similar services that AAIMG is offering.

http://www.fowma.com/info.htm

Hmmm... and, they do many of the things themselves that they accuse AAIMG of doing (e.g. not listing address, no phone numbers, no office locations, etc.). Who should I believe? Clearly, something is rotten in Denmark.

Again, all I can say is that I have corresponded with this supposedly "mythical" Dr. Moore via e-mail in the past. He was cordial, sent me a message in perfectly legible English that made complete sense grammatically, and was more than happy to take the time to respond to my query. Why don't you e-mail him yourself with your concerns? I got a response about 2 days after I sent my message. So, why all the conjecture and unsupported accusations? Cut to the chase and go to the source, man!

Likewise, the address is a real place in the U.S. Check for yourself...

http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.ad...son+City&state=NV&zipcode=&homesubmit=Get+Map

Of course, I can't go down there myself and verify that there's an office there because I live about 2000 miles away from Carson City. For all I know, it could be a Mailboxes, Etc. or something.

The fact is that none of this is proof whether or not the AAIMG is legit, but it is evidence that, if they are a fraudulent organization, they sure have a lot of other credible, reputable organizations and universities fooled. And, regardless, none of this side discussion still doesn't take away the fact that the original reason why this thread was started (i.e., MD in two years) is itself a scam!

(BTW, type in WWW.AAIMG.ORG into your web browser and see what happens... do you think that maybe, just maybe, that the ".org" was already taken when they initially set-up their website? I dunno, but that seems like a possibility too.)

 

[Supernumerary]

I know a few general dentists and oral surgeons who have finished these programs. They obtained an MD degree within 2 years while working full time in their offices.

Why would a general dentist want an MD for advertising purposes unless he was into something shady like "holistic dentistry"? I guess if you were specifically targetting the gullible then something like that might be useful.

And why would an oral surgeon do a questionable program like this when there are legitimate and recognized 2 yr. programs granting an MD degree during the surgical residency? Are you sure these people you know went through programs like this, or are you guessing because they have MD after their name?

Anyhow, I don't see how this could be anything other than a scam - somehow I don't see graduates ever getting licensure or obtaining residencies. I think these people are just playing off the insecurities of chiros, dentists, DOs, etc... who for some reason or another feel like they aren't perceived as real doctors and just want the social recognition.

Unless you meet actual practicing MDs who have been through this program or are just wanting to fool prospective patients with your "credentials"... run away... run far, far away. 🙂

 

[Energon]

OMFS's have to match appropriately at accredited programs. These are some of the most intensive surgical programs out there. The fact that gen dents put MD's behind their name to do procedures that OMFS surgeons do scares the hell out of me.

 

[Supernumerary]

Originally posted by AMMD
OMFS's have to match appropriately at accredited programs. These are some of the most intensive surgical programs out there. The fact that gen dents put MD's behind their name to do procedures that OMFS surgeons do scares the hell out of me.

Yeah, it is scary, but I wouldn't let this keep you up at night. If there were even three cases of dentists posing as MDs in the past 40 years, Sixty minutes and Reader's Digest would have made a big scary story out of it already. I really doubt this happens at all.

I mean, why would someone risk their dental license by posing as an MD/oral surgeon when their license already allows them to perform any procedure they feel they can perform competently. Obviously orthognathic surgeries and cleft palates would be well out of the expertise of a general dentist, but the real money making procedures (I'm assuming that money would be the motivating factor here) performed by oral surgeons can also be performed by the general dentist at his discretion.

I really think that the poster who mentioned knowing "several" dentists and oral surgeons who had done this phony degree program was just making stuff up 'cause it sounded good. 🙂

 

[LordLister]

I stand by my origional statements that I posted earlier. There was an editorial in the Journal of Oral and Maxillofacial Surgery about two years ago on this issue, and seveal follow up lettes to the editor have surfaced. Six year OMFS graduates with medical licences are concerned that the merit and work associated witht their efforts to obtain a medical degree is being diluted by single degree four year OMS graduates who buy their medical degree from one of these online companies. Some of the single degree OMFS's who have bought their MD's online are prominent members of the OMFS academic community. To back up this statement, check out the following links:

American College Of Oral and Maxillofacial Surgery:

http://www.acoms.org/officers.php

University of Antigua Medical School Alumini List:
Dentists:

http://www.uhsa.com/pstudent/alumni/list.php?cat=dds

Dr. Brian Smith DDS, MD recieved his MD from the University of Antigua via their internet MD program. He used to be the program director of OMFS at Temple University and is now president-elect of the American College Of Oral and Maxillofacial Surgery. Dr. Smith was given the opportunity to obtain an MD from Temple under the stipulation that he passed part 1 of the USMLE. He failed step 1 three times before he opted to pursue an internet MD. Steven A. Guttenberg I believe, is an attending or program director of OMFS at Washinton Hospital Center. A faculty member at VCU dept. of OMFS is an alumni of the intenet MD program, Dr. Strauss (full time faculty member). None of the aforementioned Oral Surgeons have taken the USMLE nor have they undertaken any medical residency training; therefore they are ineligable for medical licensure in the US.

As for general dentists who have recieved their MD from this University, just look at the alumini list at the website of the medical school posted above. A few general dentist alum are listed.

 

[Energon]

If there are OMFS surgeons who have done the 4 residency and got an online MD that is ok. The 4 and 6 year program pretty much puts them at par. ie. the 6 yr dont do any more than the 4yr (unless some do a facioplasty fellowship after the 6yrs) But the gen dents.... scary as hell. I know that they are allowed to do 3rd molar extractions, but there are many complex cases where cutting into the maxilla/ mandible is req (heavily impacted cases) and I dont care what anyone says, gen dents just shouldn't be touching these cases. Also there are many OMFS people who handle infections in the adjoining areas. THe smallest error in a procedure would cause the infection to rampantly spread through various fascias which would result in serious consequenses from sepsis considering the vital organs around... point is Gen dents going near any of these things = serious bad news these cases should only be handled by OMFS or ENT period!!!

 

[Supernumerary]

Uncle... Uncle... 🙂

Wow, you were right. I guess there's really nothing the licensing boards can do though. As long as they've earned the "degree," they can put MD behind their names. And the legitimate two year med school option doesn't really affect the scope of the oral surgery training and licensure,so these guys can't really be touched. It just doesn't seem ethical to trick your patients like that though.

 

[LordLister]

Anyone who advertises that they have an MD must have a state medical license and must have a medical degree. The oral surgeons that I listed in my previous post are not licensed in any state to practice medicine (as they have not fulfilled the requirements for state licensure ie. passing step 1,2 and 3, passing the COMLEX exam, and fullfilling post graduate medical training requirements (ie. 1-2 years of medical residency training)). These OMFS's that I mentioned previously are therefore misleading the public by advertising that they are licensed physicians (which they are not) and this is both illegal and unethical. As a licensed physician, I find this growing trend of four year OMFS's listing an internet medical degree as a credential (when they are not licensed physicans) confusing and a misrepresentation of their training. If this trend continues, the entire OMFS community (especially the dual degree, dual licensed OMFS's) will be stigmatized by the medical community for this practice; MD's will assume that all OMFS's obtained their medical degree's over the internet and are neither licensed to practice medicine nor have they attended medical school.

I do not see the harm in anyone pursuing an internet MD. As mentioned earlier I am concerned that graduates of such a program are misrepresenting themselves as physicians to the public and other medical professionals. The internet MD program that I mentioned in previous posts is open to OMFS's, general dentists, chiropractors, osteopaths, RN's, PA's, essentially anyone. I personally know a dentist who finished the internet MD program because he was genuineley interested increasing his medical fund of knowledge and he was excited to earn a medical degree. He had no interest in performing OMFS procdures (my friend is a pedodontist) nor does this program portend to such aspirations. My buddy does not advertise his medical degree at his clinic (because he is not a licensed physician) and he enjoyed the experience. He readily admits that the program is a poor substitute for medical school (he spent one weekend day a week for almost two years shadowing am internest at a local hospital as credit), but he says that he does have a better understanding of medicine in general.

 

[LordLister]

On the University of Antigua med school website, they listed an aluminus who represented himself as MD,PhD. His medical degree was acquired over the internet and an internet PhD from the following site:

http://www.americancollege.com/

I'm not sure whether such examples of misrepresentation are amusing or scarry.

 

[sagddsmd]

I have read with amazement, the misinformation placed in this thread. As a graduate of UHSA I feel that I can help set the record straight. First of all, nearly all medical schools that I am familiar with will allow a dentist to bypass the first two years of medical school education. Why? Because the first two years of each is virtually identical. In many schools the dental and medical students sit side by side in the same classes and take the same exams. In addition, many of the students in my UHSA medical class were, like me, oral and maxillofacial surgeons who had already completed 4-6 years of additional hospital residency prorgrams rotating on the same services and performing the same duties as the MDs.
As far as the UHSA medical school is concerned, the courses were taugh primarily by US Medical School professors. The lectures were received online and were of better quality than anything I saw in my previous training. I could read the lectures when I wanted and absorb the information better than I could have if forced to sit in a classroom at 8 am with a professor that I might not even be able to understand.
Some one in this thread commented on the lack of text books. Hogwash! There are required texts for each module and they are they exact same as if you were in any major medical school.
No tests? Hah. The examinations were very challenging, and in some classes the failure rates were unfortunate. So much for sending in your check and getting a degree! (That was very inflammatory).
As far as clinical exposure is concerned, the requirements meet or exceed the number of hours for each and every state in the US. I personally spent between 50 and 60 hours weekly at a Green Book teaching hospital along side medical students from major traditional medical schools. The difference was that I got to perform many more treatment procedures and got much more responsibilites than they...because of my previous training. I was treated more like a resident. So, in fact, my medical school experience was far richer than that which the traditional students I encountered.
As far as the USMLEs are concerned, UHSA students pass them with flying colors and those who have wished to change careers and practice in a medical field (rather than their primary specialty as I have chosen) get into residencies and do get licensed in nearly all states. Pennsylvania, one of the few states which did not recognize the UHSA medical degree recently reversed that stand and now does. I expect that if there are any others, they will soon follow suit.
So if you have a degree in Dentistry, Podiatry, Osteopathy or Chiropractic you would be foolish to not explore this option. If you do not have a health care degree already, you can enter their traditional 4 year program.

 

[RLA BS DC]

Originally posted by Fenrezz
If you wanted to be a MD, you should have went to allopathic school.

Sorry but I can't resist - I guess English is not a pre-requisite for the Oklahoma osteopathic school. Or rather, "I guess you should have went to your English classes instead of watching your cousin on Jerry Springer".

Anyway, I am currently attending UHSA SOM (Antigua) and believe it is going to serve me well in many ways. Calling it an "internet degree" is a mischaracterization. 95% of my basic sciences were done in typical classroom settings. As well, Antigua SOM is wise and fair to give me advanced credit for things like anatomy with dissection. Chiropractors receive a very good education in anatomy and some other basic sciences. Of course, as a DC my education was lacking in things like pharmacology and this lack had to be addressed by Antigua.

However the idea that it is better to attend all other lectures in a typical classroom setting is a myth. That is why homeschooled children (who usually do their programs by correspondance) statistically outperform children in public school and even many private schools, even though the public school children have the privilege of lecture type classroom settings. Some of these public/private school children educated in typical lecture settings will go on to advanced education (some will even "went" to medical school), but they will not necessarily be better educated.

Having been through many typical lectures both in undergrad and grad schools, I know that internet conducted lectures are much more productive for several reasons. One is, the online lectures foster more student participation. I have endured traditional classroom lectures and experienced the sad truth that most students do not participate or venture forth comments. I have yet to sit through an online lecture and not have 100%, or at least nearly 100% just for the sake of a rare situation here or there, of the students participate.

My brother graduated from John's Hopkin's medical school, and also was a professor at the University of Missouri school of medicine for about 15 years. I know he will vouch for the fact that many students do not even attend lectures and simply get notes from a classmate. Its hard to blame them - it is highly insulting to be a medical student, have a teacher hand out notes, then read them to you - word for word. I mean after all, you should be able to read the notes yourself. Also, many who do attend classes are otherwise distracted. A few pay attention and fewer still participate actively. Not so with an online classroom - it is my experience that everyone participates. It is also easy to go back and get lecture notes as they exist in printed format available at any time for me to read.

My online instructors have been highly credible MD's. Many also teach at USA medical schools.

I find it ironic that someone ignorant of medicine can offer an opinion about health and be held legally liable for practicing medicine without a license, but people ignorant on other subjects can offer ignorant opinions freely with no culpability. The DIXIE CHICKS as a recent case in point, but at least their's is case of ignorance as they barely have a highschool education. However assuming most people on this board have been in, are in or are going to go to medical school ignorance should have no claim on these incorrect opinions.

The idea that someone gets the degree without doing the necessary work is ridiculous. The idea that UHSA has no text requirements and no tests would be laughable if it was not presented as a legitimate claim. Since it is coming from supposedly educated people it cannot be called ignorance, but stupidity.

I use the same texts used at John's Hopkin's and Indiana SOM (where my current mentor graduated from). I am doing my current obstetric rotation/ward hours in a greenbook hospital alongside other med students and residents from USA schools of medicine. I was standing at the operatory table the other day while my obstetric mentor was doing a C-section. They were asking one of the chief family medicine residents pimp questions - ones he had asked me already - and I was stunned that this USA educated chief resident did not know a great many of them (i.e what medical non-surgical treatments are available for endometriosis, what dose, how frequent a dose?). She did recognize the round ligament of the uterus though - so apparently anatomy stuck with her. My medical mentors often ask my opinion on musculoskeletal cases, recognizing my talents aquired through chiropractic education and 15 years of professional practice.

Being a practical person, one thing I like about Antigua's program is that when I graduate I will have no outstanding student loan debts. If I went to a USA school I would have large debt. Some of you are too young and inexperienced to know what compounding debt can do to you. I have already paid off deep student loans and know what a challenge it can be, even when you take home a 6 figure yearly income as I did as a chiropractor. Houses can take decades to pay off. "Stupid is as stupid does", and it would be stupid for me to get an education and be in debt when an equivalent one is available that leaves me with no debt.

How can I say it is equivalent? I take all the same basic science courses, I use the same texts for the 3rd and 4th year courses, I do all my rotations in the same greenbook hospitals here in the USA, I will take all the same USMLE examinations and I will do the same residency as any USA educated medical doctor.

As far as licensure, I am only interested in licensure in 2 states. UHSA grads are already licensed in one of the states I am interested in and I have full gaurantee in writing from the state board in the other state I am interested in that they will accept UHSA's license with no problems. The person issuing that written gaurantee has been in charge of the licensing for that board for over a decade and knows the subject in and out.

As was mentioned in the earlier post from a UHSA grad, even Pennsylvania has recently reversed a previous decision NOT to recognize the degree and now they currently recognize it and there are UHSA (Antigua) grads licensed there.

One last comment - as MD's, or even just grad students we are held to a higher standard. Do a fact check before stating such opinions. Many people often believe what an MD says even when they are completely wrong. You have an obligation to make accurate comments. Many of the opinions about Antigua school of medicine posted here are inaccurate.

One post above says that they know of someone getting a degree from Antigua for shadowing some doctor on weekends for 2 years. Sorry, that can't be done; it is untrue and I believe the person posting that message knowingly lies. As examples of the clinical hours required by Antigua for my core rotations, I have to fullfill 150 hours in Family medicine, 380 clinical hours in ob/gyn, and 520 clinical hours in general surgery. Of course there is still psychiatry and internal medicine to complete the cores. Once elective hours are figured into the equation, thousands of clinical hours in rotations will have been done. The clinical experience through UHSA SOM (Antigua) is very extensive and does not consist of a weekend here or there shadowing some doctor, nor does it consist of a little time spent in 3rd world countries taking care of a few sick people.

It is offensive that supposedly educated people present fabrications as truth. If these people actually believe these false claims to be true, then it would be hard to ever call the people making these claims "doctor" since doctor is a title reserved for someone with high levels of ACCURATE knowledge.

 

[LordLister]

Rather than spending so much time and energy legitimizing your pursuits of a bogus degree, why not take the steps required to become a licensed physician? If the examinations and coursework at UHSA are so rigorous, you should have no problems passing the USMLE. Until then, you are as much of a physician as any other bogus practioner.

 

[backdoc]

Lord Lister,

(quote)
"If the examinations and coursework at UHSA are so rigorous, you should have no problems passing the USMLE. Until then, you are as much of a physician as any other bogus practioner."

Is it possible then, Lord Lister, that even AFTER a UHSA grad attains a passing grade on the USMLE AND completes an accredited residency, that they would not attain the Lord Lister professional "seal of approval" and hence remain in the hinterland reserved for "bogus practitioners"?

In that case all Caribbean grads are bogus practitioners, seeing as all of you have circumvented the traditional way of getting a US approved and accredited medical education. At least those of us who do decide to take this path already HAVE accredited US DEGREES from US dentistry, podiatric or chiropractic schools. I did not get my basic sciences on some island with questionable lab facilities, or perhaps none at all. Our basic sciences were taught to us in the US by trained and certified professors who do in fact have the right to teach in the United States as opposed to some asylum-seeking professor in some banana republic. So please forgive me if I already know that the hallmark of gastric CA is coffee-ground vomitus. I read Robbins in the comfort of my air-conditoned dorm room in the US instead of under your mosquito net in Dominica.

In fact NO Caribbean med school is ACCREDITED by any US accrediting agency. They ALL rely on their WHO listing for their supposed "legitimacy".

It is curious to me however, that you should have such a passionate interest in what you claim are such "scams", since you are obviously in a "legitimate" medical school, and not in some Carribean degree mill.

Perhaps your ire stems from the fact that you did not get your money's worth after purchasing your previous degree from a fly-by-night organization? Or just maybe you purchased the title of "Lord" online. Which of course begs the question, are you the Lord Lister of Farmingham, or the Lord Lister of Nottingham?

What ever the case is, it is time for you to get a grip and abandon your pathetic med-school cliches and stop questioning others about why and how they became doctors. If the gold standard for legitimacy is a US allopathic medical school education, then ask yourself which side of the "bogus" line you fall on.

Until the day arrives that you can tell me that you graduated from the top of your class at Harvard Med school, drive a beat-up old Pinto and have now decided to devote the rest of your life to erradicating AIDS in Sub-Saharan Africa, save me the puerile tirade on how you and you alone are a "legitimate" medical practitioner.

 

[LordLister]

Backdoc;

Coffee ground emesis is by no means a common hallmark of gastric cancer (or as you state: ?the hallmark?). Gastric cancer usually presents as unexplained weight loss, abdominal pain or discomphort,, emesis, indigestion, blood in the stool, or reduced appetite. Other less common causes of vomiting blood include bleeding tendencies, problems with blood clotting, gastric cancer and esophageal varices.?Coffee ground vomit? results from the action of stomach acid on the blood. The most common causes of hematemesis are a bleeding ulcer, either in the stomach or the duodenum, gastritis, tears in the lining of the esophagus known as the Mallory-Weiss syndrome and esophagitis.

 

[backdoc]

To the venerable "Lord" Lister

Your ability to copy from the pages of the Merck Manual is impressive indeed.

Yet allow me to point out that while my reference to gastric carcinoma was in no way meant to be exhaustive, your ability to totally miss the point is quite legendary.

You may not have realized that in your lengthy treatise you actually confirmed that coffee ground vomitus IS a classic pathological sign of gastric CA due, as you so eloquently state, to the interaction of the gastric acid with blood in the stomach. Thanks for that.

Also, could you please forward the name of the "medical" school you attend. The reason I ask is because of your statement:

(quote)
"as I was taught in medical school that stupidity, arrogance, impudence, and obfuscation the hallmarks of a chiropractor."
(endquote)

You are obviously not aware of the Wilkes vs American Medical Association case heard in US district court in which the the AMA was found guilty and held liable for its slanderous, derogatory and unsubstantiated misrepresentations of the chiropractic profession.

Perhaps the "medical school" which supposedly "taught" you such ignorant and xenophobic attitudes needs to be made aware of this ruling. On the other hand I doubt that the long arm of US law might apply to the despotic banana republic where this medical school of yours is located. Yet, I somehow doubt that such views were taught to you by anyone, rather they stem from your own narrow and uninformed worldview.

Chiropractors, accupuncturists, herbalists, nutritionists, and other Complementary and Alternative Medicine practitioners are here to stay my friend, whether you find this to be "stupid", or the like is totally irrelevant. It is extremely unfortunate that your future patients (and I shudder as I think this) will seek your opinion on these and other subjects. No doubt you will authoritatively and eloquently assert to your patients that such therapies are "stupid" as you go on over-perscribing antibiotics to every forseeable ailment that walks through your doors.

I seek to broaden my professional outlook by combining the expertise of both the chiropractic and medical professions for the betterment of my existing and future patients.

As far as who is stupid, arrogant, impudent, and obfuscatious, suffice it to say the readers of your childish posting can come to their own conclusions. You're trying to become a "professional", so at least try to act the part.

 

[backdoc]

Also, you totally did not answer my question:

Would a UHSA grad who passes the USMLE and completes an accredited residency be in your esteemed opinion a "legitimate" medical practitioner?

 

[LordLister]

Backdoc;

I appologise for any inflamatory remarks I have made previously. I think that perhaps my origional point may have been missed. Regarding your questions, I believed that they have been discussed in previous posts.

 

[backdoc]

Its all in good fun my friend,

I also appreciate that you have edited your posting to remove the derogatory and insulting comments directed towards the chiropractic profession. I hope you truly seek to keep an open mind as is the mark of a true scholar.

I do however welcome your extensive input to this thread, and fully agree with your sense of indignation if people are indeed spending just one weekend a month for a couple of years and getting a pseudo-MD degree.

I am currently in a pain management practice, which employs myself, 2 physical therapists, a psychiatrist and 3 pain docs (MD anesthesiologists). The professional collaboration amongst my colleagues and I is extensive, and I respect their judgement as much as they respect mine.

If this opportunity to attain the MD degree is indeed legitimate and viable, I would be foolish indeed to pass it up. This is of course why I started this thread, to obtain advice, and not to advertise anything as previous respondants have stated.

By the way, I found out about this opportunity from a colleague who is a podiatrist. He DID put in extensive hours and did all the other types of scut work that kids half his age had to do (he's 56). All of this was done at one of the largest teaching hospitals in the country (I am not at liberty to talk on his behalf so I'll not mention which one). He sacrificed tremendously both in terms of time, effort and in patient volume. He estimates that his costs were close to $1 million dollars in tuition and lost revenues. But he feels it was well worth it.

Of course I welcome all types of advice as I make up my mind as to pursue this option or not.

Thanks also to RLA and SAGDDSMD for your input. Perhaps you could private message me so that we could talk at length.

Thanks to all of you.
backdoc

 

[LordLister]

SAGDDSMS is Steven A Guttenberg, whom I mentioned in a previous post. On the UHSA website, he is listed as class president of the class of 2002. The rhetoric in his post here is similar to the rhetoric on the UHSA website. He is included in a group of OMFS?s who recently wrote a letter to the editor of the Journal of Oral and Maxillofacial Surgery on this subject. Here is an excerpt of that letter:

?One foreign school, the University of Health Sciences, Antigua (UHSA) has designed a curriculum for oral and maxillofacial surgeons to earn their MD degree that is very similar to the current course work for US dual-degree programs for medical school. The major difference is that UHSA allows OMSs to pursue their MD degree while maintaining at least a part-time practice....Two members of our class have already been accepted to US medical residencies after passing their USMLE prior to graduation. Most of us have taken the USMLE or are scheduled to do so. Some of my OMS colleagues have even expressed some interest in continuing postgraduate education in a medical residency, while the majority just want to get back to their practice.?

My origional posts were written with regard to the UHSA program?s influence on the practice of OMFS. In regards to allied health professionals (podiatrists, chiropractors, pharmacists, dentists, etc) hoping to get into a US residency after completing the UHSA program, this appears to be difficult. From the above excerpt, I would gather that this program could not be that good if only two people from Dr. Guttenberg?s class were accepted to US medical residencies prior to graduation. The website posts photocopies of individual?s USMLE reports online (I gather this is an offer of proof that graduates of this program do pass the USMLE). The website also posts photocopies of individual letters of acceptance to residency programs (albeit not that many).

In my opinion, Dr. Guttenberg?s response, both in this forum and elsewhere, are misleading and self serving. His responses to questions and criticisms read as advertisments for UHSA; his responses give the impression that he has a financial interest in recruiting students. He is not a licenced physican, yet he misleadingly presents himself as one.

Backdoc, I wish you the best regarding furthering your career in medicine. It appears that there are both pro?s and con?s to this program. I saw on the UHSA website that a program graduate, who scored 183 and 207 in steps 1 and 2 respectively, placed in a family practice residency. This gives the impression that it is possible to complete the program and matriculate into a US residency. I would, however, think that it would be very difficult to pass the USMLE after completing this program (I found all 3 steps to be extremely difficult even when taking them at the appropriate times (after 2nd yr, 4th yr, etc)).

The link to the full letter is:

http://www2.joms.org/scripts/om.dll...special=hilite&query=[body](double+standard,)

 

[hosskp1]

I chose a DO even when I had the grades to be an MD ( I knew that I would never have to go to a foriegn country for medical training). I knew then that I could practice anywhere in this fine country I wanted. I find it laughable and insulting to think a DO would ever even consider this. By lopping the DO in with chiropracters and DPM you are insulting us. I think this is a joke and the only reason I checked this forum was to see if there was anything posted on international health issues because I am interested in public health-- Then I find this insulting thing listed.

 

[dmon]

hosskp1 wrote:

...I find it laughable and insulting to think a DO would ever even consider this. By lopping the DO in with chiropracters and DPM you are insulting us...

Dear hosskp1,

I think that by you lopping yourself in with the D.O.s is an insult to the osteopathic profession. I have read through some of your previous posts in other threads and I am horrified. How can a person with so much hate and predjudice in them get into a profession which requires empathy and compassion. Maybe there should be some sort of psychological evaluation as part of the medical school admissions process.

 

[calidc]

Hey backdoc,

I also checked out this school's website and wondered if it is really possible to go this route and get a residence and licensure in the usa or whether it's a complete waste of money and time. Really, with the state of online technology etc., I don't see why this couldn't be used to create a decent and perhaps even exceptional teaching method, but whether it is considered legitimate and will ever be accepted is entirely another story. Hell, when I was in chiro school, much of the classroom learning was simply MD or Phd professors simply reading their textbooks. Ridiculous, and much more efficient and effective to learn at students own pace. As for the "accelerated" question, in chiro school some of my classmates would compare notes with MD student or grad siblings and the consensus seemed to be the books and coursework were practically indistinguishable for the basic sciences like anatomy, physiology, histology etc. Before other posters jump on me, No, I am not claiming that chiro school is comparable to med school in other respects, just basic science ed. And yes, I am sure that varies quite a bit between the chiro schools.

Anyhoo, I wanted to find out if you had found anything else about this program from other sources. From what I've gathered, Ross, SGU, and SABA all have good, legitimate programs, but studying in the islands is damned expensive with many attendant problems. If there is another legitamate way, I want to hear about it. If it's a scam or giant waste of $, I want to hear that too from more than one source. Can you email me at [email protected] Thanks.