MD/Ph.D Opportunities?

[Arijos0222]

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I'm not thinking about this now but I was just curious as the doctor i'm shadowing is an MD/Ph.D.

Lets just say an MD/Ph.D has a Ph.D focusing on neuroscience

At any point (after he/she is residency trained) can an MD/Ph.D choose to become a full time professor at a Research University and say, become a Neuroscience professor at a University? I always thought that they had the upper hand in job opportunities because they are clinicians AND scientists. The idea seems good and I don't think I would mind being a college professor later in life myself...

Thoughts?

 

[JPodel]

I don't see why not... But after putting hard work into getting an MD, I'd hope you still practice medicine while doing research/teaching. I know MD/PhD's that are Oncologist and also do research in cancer vaccines and such so that they can be the first to implement the new vaccine/founding.

Bottom line, yes you will be able to teach full time as there are no reasons to why not.

 

[DesertPT]

Yes, most MD/PhD's serve as both practicing physicians and professors/researchers. That's a long road though. 4 years undergrad + 8 years grad school + 3-10 years residency and fellowship training depending on specialty. Your looking at anywhere from 15-22 years out of high school before you have anything resembling the physician/scientist job you dream of. Seems a bit crazy to me. Do it if it really is the only thing that will ever make you happy in life. Lots of people with just MD's are professors and researchers, just perhaps without the upper edge on the MD/PhD's.

 

[Medstart108]

MD/PhD falls in the camp of Neurosurgery, Cardiothoracic Surgery.. All things every high schooler thinks they will do until they grow up and realize the reality of the time, the effort and the grades it takes to do these jobs. Finally most people just give up lol.

For an MD doing a PhD is years of lost income. If your PhD takes 3 or 4 years thats 3 or 4 years of lost income for almost nothing. PhD will give you a little advantage in the research side of things however it really isn't worth all that effort in my opinion. MDs become professors as well.

 

[red doctober]

MD/PhD falls in the camp of Neurosurgery, Cardiothoracic Surgery.. All things every high schooler thinks they will do until they grow up and realize the reality of the time, the effort and the grades it takes to do these jobs. Finally most people just give up lol.

For an MD doing a PhD is years of lost income. If your PhD takes 3 or 4 years thats 3 or 4 years of lost income for almost nothing. PhD will give you a little advantage in the research side of things however it really isn't worth all that effort in my opinion. MDs become professors as well.

Haha, ever think of becoming a motivational speaker? Go find the nearest MD/PhD faculty at your medical school and see how brave you are telling them that.

You as a medical student saying that MD/PhD is a waste is like a nurse anesthetist student saying that going to medical school to become an anesthesiologist a waste of time and money. Stay in the boundaries of your own realm.

 

[PTPoeny]

Haha, ever think of becoming a motivational speaker? Go find the nearest MD/PhD faculty at your medical school and see how brave you are telling them that.

You as a medical student saying that MD/PhD is a waste is like a nurse anesthetist student saying that going to medical school to become an anesthesiologist a waste of time and money. Stay in the boundaries of your own realm.

To be fair doing an MD/PhD has a definite benefit for one specific career path that a minority of MD/PhD graduates pursue. There was a relatively recent thread on whether or not people would do MD/PhD again and a lot would not: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=13604127

The experience has value, but a lot of costs as well and it can be difficult to predict the exact path one's career will take when you are first applying as you won't be starting it for 10-15 years.

 

[Anon212]

The reality is that the majority of academic physicians are MD's. Even a lot of people who have their own lab- they're MD's. There are research fellowships that can be done in most specialties, and some residency programs include a good amount of full-time research (2+ years) as well. In fact, many (most?) of the top general surgery programs in the country are 7 years, not 5, because they include 2 years of research. All of these things can help a practicing MD pursue academic research with 4 years of grad school.

That being said, my understanding is that the PhD just makes that process easier. Research brings money and prestige to an institution, so MD/PhD's tend to do very well in the Match. And it is easier to get your own lab if you have the PhD.

But also as far as I've seen, one of the big limiting factors for MD's going into heavy academia with a big emphasis on research is interest/time, not the lack of PhD. Generally speaking, most (?) MD's went into medicine because they like clinical medicine- they may like some research sprinkled in there, but based on what I've seen, most people are pretty intent on the clinical stuff or may have other interests such as global health, medical missions, medical policy, hospital administration etc- different kinds of research that do not necessitate a Phd.

Also, let's not forget that academia offers a big pay cut compared to community work. I think it's hard to definitively rule out community practice when you don't really know what it is and you've always been in ivory tower academics. I remember at one of my interviews I was told that overall, about 80% of residency applicants said they want academic careers, and only 20% of them actually pursue them. This is because once you're in residency you realize that you can work in the community and still be at a big tertiary care center with plenty of teaching- you don't need to be at a university hospital for that.

Anyways, I'm rambling a little but the point is that you don't really need the PhD to pursue academics, especially if your goal is to teach and not necessarily to own your own lab etc. The MD is a doctorate of medicine, so you can pursue research in medicine without more degrees. If you do have it, my understanding is that it can help place you in that academic track pretty quickly, should help get you a fancy spot for residency and MAY help you get a lab faster. Whether you're willing to take the gamble of not changing your mind about absolutely doing academic medicine, with the pay cuts and extra PITA of putting up with the bureaucracy of academics, 17+ years from now- that's up to you.

 

[Coffee Machine]

I'm not thinking about this now but I was just curious as the doctor i'm shadowing is an MD/Ph.D.

Lets just say an MD/Ph.D has a Ph.D focusing on neuroscience

At any point (after he/she is residency trained) can an MD/Ph.D choose to become a full time professor at a Research University and say, become a Neuroscience professor at a University? I always thought that they had the upper hand in job opportunities because they are clinicians AND scientists. The idea seems good and I don't think I would mind being a college professor later in life myself...

Thoughts?

I thought I would do MD/PhD all throughout college (did a bunch of research with an MD/PhD), applied and was accepted to a couple MD/PhD programs, but decided halfway through the interview season that it wasn't for me. So I have a few thoughts.

MD/PhD is the ideal program for people who want to run their own research lab and spend at least 70% of their time doing basic science research, the other 30% in the clinic seeing patients. These are not set numbers... There are many who do not see patients at all, and many who do no lab work. But the 70/30 split is considered to be the ideal. They probably have an upper hand when it comes to landing academic jobs, and there's some evidence that they're slightly more successful at getting grants than pure PhDs. Generally speaking, the more research you do, the less you will earn. In fact, in one of my interviews, a PhD recommended that when I'm searching for academic jobs as an MD/PhD that I offer to take a 50% pay cut compared to my purely clinical colleagues so that I can secure dedicated research time.

Pluses to the path include a full scholarship for med and grad school, plus a stipend (which is huge). However, most would agree that you end up making less in the long run even though you graduate with zero debt, because of the extra time spent not making MD money and because you generally make less once you're finished.

Yes, most MD/PhD's serve as both practicing physicians and professors/researchers.

Most MD/PhD grads currently do just one or the other, with more doing purely clinical than purely research. This is due in part because of the vast differences in salary and because of the current headaches with getting grants.

MD/PhD falls in the camp of Neurosurgery, Cardiothoracic Surgery...

I agree with most of your points, but just wanted to say something about specialty choice. The most common fields for MD/PhD grads to go into are IM, peds, and path. Neurosurgery and rad onc (I believe) are the fields with the highest percentage of matched students having a PhD. It is extremely rare to see MD/PhD CT surgeons.

In conclusion, OP, the MD/PhD road is long and poorly reimbursed. But it also represents the ideal training for someone wanting to live the translational research dream: taking the breakthroughs you make at the bench to the patients bedside. It's a he commitment, and it takes a lot of careful thought to determine whether or not its the right career decision.

I would encourage anyone who is interested in learning more about the pros and cons of the combined path to checkout the MD/PhD forums. A wonderful resource that was absolutely invaluable to me throughout my college years and interview process.

 

[Coffee Machine]

Haha, ever think of becoming a motivational speaker? Go find the nearest MD/PhD faculty at your medical school and see how brave you are telling them that.

You as a medical student saying that MD/PhD is a waste is like a nurse anesthetist student saying that going to medical school to become an anesthesiologist a waste of time and money. Stay in the boundaries of your own realm.

He/she wouldn't need to be brave to tell the MD/PhD faculty at their school that. The faculty would likely tell them. As the MD/PhD who replied to you pointed out, there are many who wish they hadn't done it. As she said, it's really only worth it if you follow a very particular career path (the 70:30 split I mentioned above). And no, it's actually nothing like the CRNA/anesthesiologist example you cited.

 

[CedarZ4]

There are 2 types of people who have both an MD and PhD

1) People who are interested in academia (as mentioned before, those who would rather have a more relax lifestyle so they opt to be a teaching professor and only do clinical work once or twice a week)

and the rest (majority) of the people, 2) International students who need to get a PhD in order to stay in the US.

In other words, if you plan on practicing as a physician as your primary career, do not get the dual degree. It is a waste of time and most likely useless.