MD/PhD a bad idea if I want to go into a surgical specialty?

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

basophilic

Full Member
7+ Year Member
Joined
May 30, 2015
Messages
404
Reaction score
83
If so, why?
I get that extended training time is one disadvantage, but what if I don't care about pay as much?
Assume I am equally interested in the clinical as well as research side of specialty; also, PhD in a field closely tied to the specialty.

Members don't see this ad.
 
Is it bad? Honestly depends on your tolerance for pain

If you plan on starting a family or settling down, could a 20+ yr training path have its toll on the relationship? certainly possible

Will YOU feel like doing it when you're in your late 30s and still not making bank? Life happens and how you feel now may not be how you feel in two decades

How great of a surgeon and PI do you expect you'll be? Both require a lot of time to perfect their respective skill sets

These are some of the the real/life considerations that you'll eventually have to answer if you embark on this journey

P.S. I'm not saying it's bad but I'd certainly try to talk to a few surgeon-scientists and get their take on the matter. This is ultimately gonna come down to your preferences
 
my main concerns are
1. At some point during 15-18 years of gruelling training and living off a little more than a college budget you will wish you took a diffeeent path
2. The PhD and surgery training may not overlap as much as you would like. It seems hard to get a PhD before becoming a surgeon. Like what do you research exactly that would be really relevant to you once you become a surgeon. A new device or something? To me seems MD at a good research institution followed by academic residency is better.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
It's not just about getting the PhD, which in some rare instances can be done in 3 years. It's what you want to do with it. Some people just get the PhD and never do a post-doc or young faculty fellowship. If you expect to be a PI one day, add 20-30+ hours to your weekly schedule.

Some MD/PhD's do get lucky though. They might be able to negotiate 3 days of lab time per week. But couple that with a surgical career, where doing more cases makes you a better surgeon, and well, you can see it becomes a delicate balance.

There's plenty of areas you can study. Wound healing comes to mind. Transplant/immuno. Oncology. Regenerative tissues.
 
Is it bad? Honestly depends on your tolerance for pain

If you plan on starting a family or settling down, could a 20+ yr training path have its toll on the relationship? certainly possible

Will YOU feel like doing it when you're in your late 30s and still not making bank? Life happens and how you feel now may not be how you feel in two decades

How great of a surgeon and PI do you expect you'll be? Both require a lot of time to perfect their respective skill sets

These are some of the the real/life considerations that you'll eventually have to answer if you embark on this journey

P.S. I'm not saying it's bad but I'd certainly try to talk to a few surgeon-scientists and get their take on the matter. This is ultimately gonna come down to your preferences

If you don't mind me asking, what specialty are you planning on doing? I see that you are currently an MD/PhD student.

Let me be a little more concrete here: my dream would be to do MD/PhD and then land a decent academic orthopedic residency.

Also, living on the stipend would only go on till maybe around 30-32, after which I'd be making a resident's pay, which is still a decent middle-class lifestyle (after immigrating here to US, my family and I lived with my mom's sole minimum-wage salary which is probably at or below the average yearly stipend; after that, we lived fairly comfortably on my father's IM resident salary). Furthermore, the complete lack of debt is also an important factor; most MD students would have to start paying the debt during residency years. While there is some net loss in salary with the MD/PhD, in the long run there's the benefit of having open to you a larger array of residencies in your chosen specialty (assuming of course a decent Step 1); I would personally like to do a more academic residency, which I understand is more selective but gives higher preference to MD/PhDs. What's wrong with this mode of thinking?

Also, you say there's a sort of a tug-of-war between being a surgeon vs. being a PI; is this not applicable to any medical specialty (surgical and nonsurgical)? Wouldn't the time demand for being a good neurologist be in a tug-of-war with the time demand for being a PI?

Having said that, is it a waste if I do MD/PhD but then decided to focus primarily on surgical practice? Would ~60 hours post-residency be too little to focus on both surgical practice as well as research? If I worked in a hospital, would my pay be significantly lower if I split my time between surgical practice and research (like say a ratio of 2:1 of clinic:research)?

Also, I can start a family once I start residency, which would be somewhere in the 30-35 age range; I personally don't think that's too late and I've heard of people marrying anywhere from before to midway through med school or midway through residency. What's wrong with my thinking here?

I hope I don't sound like I'm demeaning the points you made, which are perfectly sound; I would just really like some genuine criticism for my (naive) thought processes here. Thanks for the input.
 
It's not just about getting the PhD, which in some rare instances can be done in 3 years. It's what you want to do with it. Some people just get the PhD and never do a post-doc or young faculty fellowship. If you expect to be a PI one day, add 20-30+ hours to your weekly schedule.

Some MD/PhD's do get lucky though. They might be able to negotiate 3 days of lab time per week. But couple that with a surgical career, where doing more cases makes you a better surgeon, and well, you can see it becomes a delicate balance.

There's plenty of areas you can study. Wound healing comes to mind. Transplant/immuno. Oncology. Regenerative tissues.

Excuse my ignorance, but what exactly do most MD/PhDs do with their PhD?

Also, regarding your last point: I wanted to focus on regenerative biology of musculoskeletal tissues like bone/intervertebral disc/cartilage; wouldn't this be directly relevant to orthopedics in general and even more so to specific subspecialties like joint-replacement, ligament/tendon reconstruction surgery, cartilage implantation, etc. Wouldn't PhDs in such fields reinforce the surgical practice?

My dream would be to be an ortho (I fully realize this is a super-competitive field in itself, requiring stellar Step 1, clinical grades, etc.; I'm just painting my ideal scenario) who does surgical procedures but who also aims to improve these same procedures. I'd think being an orthopod and doing research in regenerative musculoskeletal biology would pretty strongly go hand-in-hand.
 
Excuse my ignorance, but what exactly do most MD/PhDs do with their PhD?

Also, regarding your last point: I wanted to focus on regenerative biology of musculoskeletal tissues like bone/intervertebral disc/cartilage; wouldn't this be directly relevant to orthopedics in general and even more so to specific subspecialties like joint-replacement, ligament/tendon reconstruction surgery, cartilage implantation, etc. Wouldn't PhDs in such fields reinforce the surgical practice?

My dream would be to be an ortho (I fully realize this is a super-competitive field in itself, requiring stellar Step 1, clinical grades, etc.; I'm just painting my ideal scenario) who does surgical procedures but who also aims to improve these same procedures. I'd think being an orthopod and doing research in regenerative musculoskeletal biology would pretty strongly go hand-in-hand.

They do what MD's do, and typically run a lab like PhD's do. They might have post-docs and grad students working for them. They apply for grants, lead projects, advise post-docs, mentor grad students, publish like crazy, etc. There are many who know more than me on the subject. I think it might be worth your time to speak to different MD/PhD's, see what their life is like.

Now that you mention it, that research interest really reminds me of Pitt. Dr. Fu is one of the most prolific orthopedic surgeon/scientists I can think of. He didn't get a PhD, to throw a wrench in the conversation. Might want to check out his work. I don't know where you go for med school, but Pitt has an excellent program in regenerative medicine. I know some med schools allow you to do your PhD at other institutions.

http://orthonet.pitt.edu/people/freddie-h-fu-md
 
Why do you need a PhD? You can be a PI, run a lab and do research without the combined degree.

We have a Physician Scientist forum here and many will tell you that they regret getting the combined degree; worth taking a look there and see what they think.

There are surgeon-scientists who run labs and do clinical work, but they are in the minority. If you are employed by an academic institution, your salary will be tied to RVUs, grants, etc. As grant funding trends downward, its going to get even more competitive to fight for those. Unless you become a superstar with a huge grant and a productive lab, you will make less than your clinical colleagues. What passes for success in a lab is defined differently by hospital administrators: they need surgeons to be in the OR generating income.
 
Last edited:
If you don't mind me asking, what specialty are you planning on doing? I see that you are currently an MD/PhD student.

Let me be a little more concrete here: my dream would be to do MD/PhD and then land a decent academic orthopedic residency.

Also, living on the stipend would only go on till maybe around 30-32, after which I'd be making a resident's pay, which is still a decent middle-class lifestyle (after immigrating here to US, my family and I lived with my mom's sole minimum-wage salary which is probably at or below the average yearly stipend; after that, we lived fairly comfortably on my father's IM resident salary). Furthermore, the complete lack of debt is also an important factor; most MD students would have to start paying the debt during residency years. While there is some net loss in salary with the MD/PhD, in the long run there's the benefit of having open to you a larger array of residencies in your chosen specialty (assuming of course a decent Step 1); I would personally like to do a more academic residency, which I understand is more selective but gives higher preference to MD/PhDs. What's wrong with this mode of thinking?

Also, you say there's a sort of a tug-of-war between being a surgeon vs. being a PI; is this not applicable to any medical specialty (surgical and nonsurgical)? Wouldn't the time demand for being a good neurologist be in a tug-of-war with the time demand for being a PI?

Having said that, is it a waste if I do MD/PhD but then decided to focus primarily on surgical practice? Would ~60 hours post-residency be too little to focus on both surgical practice as well as research? If I worked in a hospital, would my pay be significantly lower if I split my time between surgical practice and research (like say a ratio of 2:1 of clinic:research)?

Also, I can start a family once I start residency, which would be somewhere in the 30-35 age range; I personally don't think that's too late and I've heard of people marrying anywhere from before to midway through med school or midway through residency. What's wrong with my thinking here?

I hope I don't sound like I'm demeaning the points you made, which are perfectly sound; I would just really like some genuine criticism for my (naive) thought processes here. Thanks for the input.

- I'm planning on going into medical oncology. My PhD is in cancer biology so it provides some useful basic science training (at least that's my thought process at this point)
- The debt-free aspect is a bit of a misnomer since you're essentially giving up some prime attending earning years. Though if you plan on staying in academia, you'll be taking a pay cut anyhow.
- The MD/PhD doesn't really help you get into any more residencies than just having the MD. Some specialties tend to have more MD/PhDs go into them if that what you mean. Realistically speaking getting strong step scores will by and large open more doors than the PhD. Sticking with residency training at academic centers tends to be a good bet since many community programs may hold negative stigmas about the PhD (this is what i've heard from those further down the path on SDN and IRL)
- I do believe some medical specialties have better synergies with being a PI than others (e.g. path, rad onc, med onc, pulm, cards, optho, etc). Surgery generally doesn't fall under that category since to be a competent surgeon requires not only long, rigorous training, but constant practice (basically 60-70+ hrs/wk post-residency depending on the subspecialty) which leaves very little time left for one to be an effective PI (~60-70 hrs/wk). It takes a ton of time and practice to learn how to manage people, train people, WRITE grants, publish, etc. - the bread and butter of being a PI. I've seen it done successfully rarely but just understand that it'll be tough. Winged Scapula eluded to some of the challenges surgeon-scientists face.
- If you decide to focus primarily on surgery after then I guess that's fine if you don't mind/enjoy taking a 4-5 yr break to study the basic/translational science behind something (I know some people who've done that).
- If you can bring in a ton of research dollars (i.e. grants) to your department, can convince the chair to give you some protected research time and don't mind working like a dog for less pay than your purely clinical peers, then striking a balance between surgery and research is possible in academia albeit very difficult.
- Starting a family during residency tends to be easier for males than females so in that sense what you're saying makes sense. You'd of course have to work out who'd raise the child, daycare, nannies, etc. with your spouse.

Overall, I'm not trying to dissuade you just point out the difficulties that are inherent with the dual degree pathway. Below is a sample time line (rough estimates since i'm not super familiar with all the inner workings of surgical residencies):

MD/PhD = 8-9 yrs
Ortho residency = 5 yrs
Fellowship = 1-2 yrs
post-doc = 3-5 yrs (you need time to get data for those early career grants)
Establish lab ->tenured PI = 5-7 yrs (depends on department)
Total (if everything successful) = 22-28 yrs
 
My program has started graduating 1 surgical MD/PhD annually. Typically their research is in cancer bio or biomechanics but I remember one was neuro and wanted to study anesthestics. A recent graduate said that his goal was no longer to be a PI, just involved in research and felt like that wouldn't be too hard to balance as a surgeon.

I remember meeting an alum of our program who is an ENT MD/PhD (cancer research) at a prestigious university and while he sounded really happy and I'm sure he genuinely is, I would never want to live like he did. Spent all his time outside of his clinical hours in the lab during his residency (e.g. nights, weekends, vacation, post-call all in lab) and said that family/home wise his wife is essentially a single mom who doesn't have to work because he's there so little and thankfully earns enough to be the sole breadwinner. It was either that or mom works and nannies raise the kids and housekeepers tend to the house. As others have said, surgery requires many more hours "in person" to stay sharp than the other specialties do so you can't really be a surgeon who sees patients/operates 1 day/week like you could do for a medical field. He still rarely takes vacation and even if he is home for dinner with his family it's right back to work at home and still working most weekends and rarely taking vacation. Aside from his obvious personal satisfaction, the one benefit to the route was that one time when he was struggling to get grants he just started doing more surgeries to increase his salary and put the extra money towards the lab. The guy is basically a machine but I guess if you want it bad enough you can make it happen.
 
My program has started graduating 1 surgical MD/PhD annually. Typically their research is in cancer bio or biomechanics but I remember one was neuro and wanted to study anesthestics. A recent graduate said that his goal was no longer to be a PI, just involved in research and felt like that wouldn't be too hard to balance as a surgeon.

I remember meeting an alum of our program who is an ENT MD/PhD (cancer research) at a prestigious university and while he sounded really happy and I'm sure he genuinely is, I would never want to live like he did. Spent all his time outside of his clinical hours in the lab during his residency (e.g. nights, weekends, vacation, post-call all in lab) and said that family/home wise his wife is essentially a single mom who doesn't have to work because he's there so little and thankfully earns enough to be the sole breadwinner. It was either that or mom works and nannies raise the kids and housekeepers tend to the house. As others have said, surgery requires many more hours "in person" to stay sharp than the other specialties do so you can't really be a surgeon who sees patients/operates 1 day/week like you could do for a medical field. He still rarely takes vacation and even if he is home for dinner with his family it's right back to work at home and still working most weekends and rarely taking vacation. Aside from his obvious personal satisfaction, the one benefit to the route was that one time when he was struggling to get grants he just started doing more surgeries to increase his salary and put the extra money towards the lab. The guy is basically a machine but I guess if you want it bad enough you can make it happen.

Being a surgeon-scientist is a no-no proposition. You guys should read about this Vanderbilt surgery resident, Eugene Gu, and all the trouble he has gone through to be a surgeon-scientist. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugene_Gu). News about him popped up on my phone right before the election. I assume he is even more screwed now.
 
Being a surgeon-scientist is a no-no proposition. You guys should read about this Vanderbilt surgery resident, Eugene Gu, and all the trouble he has gone through to be a surgeon-scientist. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugene_Gu). News about him popped up on my phone right before the election. I assume he is even more screwed now.

judging by how much political stuff that dude posts on his twitter he can't be working that hard
 
If you don't mind me asking, what specialty are you planning on doing? I see that you are currently an MD/PhD student.

Let me be a little more concrete here: my dream would be to do MD/PhD and then land a decent academic orthopedic residency.

Also, living on the stipend would only go on till maybe around 30-32, after which I'd be making a resident's pay, which is still a decent middle-class lifestyle (after immigrating here to US, my family and I lived with my mom's sole minimum-wage salary which is probably at or below the average yearly stipend; after that, we lived fairly comfortably on my father's IM resident salary). Furthermore, the complete lack of debt is also an important factor; most MD students would have to start paying the debt during residency years. While there is some net loss in salary with the MD/PhD, in the long run there's the benefit of having open to you a larger array of residencies in your chosen specialty (assuming of course a decent Step 1); I would personally like to do a more academic residency, which I understand is more selective but gives higher preference to MD/PhDs. What's wrong with this mode of thinking?

Also, you say there's a sort of a tug-of-war between being a surgeon vs. being a PI; is this not applicable to any medical specialty (surgical and nonsurgical)? Wouldn't the time demand for being a good neurologist be in a tug-of-war with the time demand for being a PI?

Having said that, is it a waste if I do MD/PhD but then decided to focus primarily on surgical practice? Would ~60 hours post-residency be too little to focus on both surgical practice as well as research? If I worked in a hospital, would my pay be significantly lower if I split my time between surgical practice and research (like say a ratio of 2:1 of clinic:research)?

Also, I can start a family once I start residency, which would be somewhere in the 30-35 age range; I personally don't think that's too late and I've heard of people marrying anywhere from before to midway through med school or midway through residency. What's wrong with my thinking here?

I hope I don't sound like I'm demeaning the points you made, which are perfectly sound; I would just really like some genuine criticism for my (naive) thought processes here. Thanks for the input.

In brief:
1. You can do research without having a PhD.
2. Ortho requires practice and constant repetition to achieve clinical competence. 60 hrs just doing surgery is almost too short, let alone throwing research into the mix.
3. A 2:1 clinical:research ratio is almost unheard of, unless you've been in practice 20 years and are scaling down your clinical practice. Don't expect it out of the gate. Most hospitals don't provide for research time, or if they do, they expect you to also be productive in terms of RVUs.
4. Having a PhD won't make you more likely to match in Ortho, unless you specifically apply to programs that have a separate research year. But it seems like a long road for an essentially useless degree. Few people become professional researchers, and the surgeons who do research are either not operating at all, or have a good balance of research and clinical practice without having PhDs.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
If you want a surgical subspecialty, and that is the end goal, then don't waste your time. Step 1, step 1, step 1. 4 years of research pales in comparison to that one day test.
 
I want to throw into the mix that you can also do a 1-year research fellowship in med school like Doris Duke, HHMI, or NIH-MRSP. It'll cut down on your training time and give you the credentials and network you need to get a solid post-doc. Its a gamble, but if you're serious about research, PIs that regularly place people in those programs will see that and sponsor you.

In my HHMI class, there are a number of people who want to do surgery and research as a career. You just have to temper your expectations of each. I highly recommend talking to surgeon-scientists to see how they do their clinic:lab balance. My anecdotal evidence is that some do 90:10 surgery-research for half the year and then 20:80 for the other half (ex. taking samples for half the year, studying them the other half while keeping skills sharp).
 
judging by how much political stuff that dude posts on his twitter he can't be working that hard
I don't know too much about Twitter and how much time it takes, but I've seen neurosurgery residents post huge essays on Facebook about mundane things. Twitter has like a 200 or something character limit so it seems like it would be much more of a time saver than other forms of social media. Moreover, posting political things when you are subpoenaed by Congress and under investigation by the Trump administration seems to be relevant to me rather than a frivolous use of time.
 
I am in my last year of MD/PhD and going into a surgical subspecialty. I have a lot I could talk about but here are some thoughts:

1) It is difficult, but certainly possible to have a successful career as a surgeon scientist. During my time as a student, and also on my interview trail, I met many role models (both MDs and MD/PhDs) who are very successful in both clinical practice and basic research. From what I've seen, there are 2 things that all of the successful surgeon scientists had in common: 1) Have a full-time PhD colleague/subordinate be in charge of the day-to-day operations of your lab. All of the role models I met had a fantastic full-time researcher be in charge of a lot of the mundane but time-consuming tasks of being a PI. This way the surgeon scientist only really needs to worry about writing grants and attending lab meetings. 2) Limit your clinical practice to a small number of surgeries/diseases. For example, I met a surgical oncologist who only operates once a week, but does only one kind of operation. So even though the TOTAL number of operations he performs is relatively small, in that one operation he has one of the highest case volumes in the state.

2) The time commitment required for MD/PhD is no joke, as others say. You are giving up on many years of attending salary. This can really affect your personal life in other unforeseen ways too. I've definitely had to put off having a child with my significant other because of the extended training and low income. Watching the past few Match Days from afar has been a miserable experience also. With that said, now that I'm finally at the end, it's very nice to go into residency not having any loans whatsoever - it will help a lot in getting good mortgage for a house, for example. Also, consider that there are many MD-only students who took years off between undergrad and med school. For example, I know someone who started medical school in his early 30's after working in the restaurant business. He is now a 4th year ENT resident at the age of ~40. Compared to him, I will still finish my training at a younger age, have a PhD degree, and be debt-free.

3) As OrthoTraumaMD said, I don't think you NEED to be a MD/PhD in order to be a good basic researcher. The role models I encountered during med school and on interview trail were about 50:50 split in terms of MDs vs. MD/PhDs. But I think that a lot of the MDs who engage in serious basic research spend a couple of years doing research fellowships to get the required skills (whether it's during medical school, residency, or later), so the difference in "years wasted" may be smaller than you think.

4) I do disagree with OrthoTraumaMD that having a PhD has no beneficial effect on residency applications. In my experience, having a PhD definitely helps you land more interviews at "top" academic institutions - provided you are already a good medical student in the absence of your research experience. If applicant A has great grades from classes/clerkships, stellar Step scores and LORs but no research experience, and applicant B has a PhD and dozens of publications but crappy grades/Steps/LORs, residency programs will pick applicant A 100% of the time - and they should. But all else being equal, having the PhD on top of everything definitely makes you more attractive to academic programs.

I had very good medical school track record, but there was a fair number of other applicants with similar stats as mine. But most of these applicants still had a mix of "top" and "mid-tier" interviews, whereas I was able to fill out all of my 18 or so interviews with just the "top" academic programs. And at many of the interviews I attended, I got very strong feedback from faculty that other candidates didn't (e.g. getting the Department Chair's personal cell phone number, someone telling me that I was only 1 of 2 candidates to get the maximum score on their "application score sheet" and showing it to me as proof, post-interview communications both to myself and my home PD). I think that was primarily because of my PhD and 30+ pubs/abstracts, even though my research has nothing to do with my chosen specialty.

But again, there are other, less time-consuming ways to achieve the same thing. There was one other applicant who I met at basically all of my interviews. This person was a MD-only student who was a lot younger than me. I think the main reasons they were able to land all of the "top" academic interviews were because 1) they had similar medical school stats as me, 2) they had chosen our specialty early in medical school and became very involved, having multiple national leadership positions and becoming very well-connected, and 3) they had extensive experience in health services research. I would certainly NOT do a MD/PhD with the primary goal of making yourself competitive for a good residency program.

As an aside, I think that for me personally, I don't think I would have done as well in my clinical clerkships if I had gone straight through medical school. I think that my PhD years helped me to develop team work skills and maturity that I wouldn't have had otherwise. So that was another benefit of the MD/PhD, for me.

5) Finally, I said the same thing in another thread, but don't worry if the specialty you ultimately decide on has nothing to do with your PhD research. This was the case for me and it didn't hinder me in any way. I was universally told that 1) they value my experience and skill set more than the actual topic of my research, and 2) it's going to be many (7+) years between when I finish my PhD and when I seriously dabble in basic research again during fellowship - by then, the basic science field would have changed so much that whatever I did during my PhD would be very outdated anyway.
 
Last edited:
I am in my last year of MD/PhD and going into a surgical subspecialty. I have a lot I could talk about but here are some thoughts:

1) It is difficult, but certainly possible to have a successful career as a surgeon scientist. During my time as a student, and also on my interview trail, I met many role models (both MDs and MD/PhDs) who are very successful in both clinical practice and basic research. From what I've seen, there are 2 things that all of the successful surgeon scientists had in common: 1) Have a full-time PhD colleague/subordinate be in charge of the day-to-day operations of your lab. All of the role models I met had a fantastic full-time researcher be in charge of a lot of the mundane but time-consuming tasks of being a PI. This way the surgeon scientist only really needs to worry about writing grants and attending lab meetings. 2) Limit your clinical practice to a small number of surgeries/diseases. For example, I met a surgical oncologist who only operates once a week, but does only one kind of operation. So even though the TOTAL number of operations he performs is relatively small, in that one operation he has one of the highest case volumes in the state.

2) The time commitment required for MD/PhD is no joke, as others say. You are giving up on many years of attending salary. This can really affect your personal life in other unforeseen ways too. I've definitely had to put off having a child with my significant other because of the extended training and low income. Watching the past few Match Days from afar has been a miserable experience also. With that said, now that I'm finally at the end, it's very nice to go into residency not having any loans whatsoever - it will help a lot in getting good mortgage for a house, for example. Also, consider that there are many MD-only students who took years off between undergrad and med school. For example, I know someone who started medical school in his early 30's after working in the restaurant business. He is now a 4th year ENT resident at the age of ~40. Compared to him, I will still finish my training at a younger age, have a PhD degree, and be debt-free.

3) As OrthoTraumaMD said, I don't think you NEED to be a MD/PhD in order to be a good basic researcher. The role models I encountered during med school and on interview trail were about 50:50 split in terms of MDs vs. MD/PhDs. But I think that a lot of the MDs who engage in serious basic research spend a couple of years doing research fellowships to get the required skills (whether it's during medical school, residency, or later), so the difference in "years wasted" may be smaller than you think.

4) I do disagree with OrthoTraumaMD that having a PhD has no beneficial effect on residency applications. In my experience, having a PhD definitely helps you land more interviews at "top" academic institutions - provided you are already a good medical student in the absence of your research experience. If applicant A has great grades from classes/clerkships, stellar Step scores and LORs but no research experience, and applicant B has a PhD and dozens of publications but crappy grades/Steps/LORs, residency programs will pick applicant A 100% of the time - and they should. But all else being equal, having the PhD on top of everything definitely makes you more attractive to academic programs.

I had very good medical school track record, but there was a fair number of other applicants with similar stats as mine. But most of these applicants still had a mix of "top" and "mid-tier" interviews, whereas I was able to fill out all of my 18 or so interviews with just the "top" academic programs. And at many of the interviews I attended, I got very strong feedback from faculty that other candidates didn't (e.g. getting the Department Chair's personal cell phone number, someone telling me that I was only 1 of 2 candidates to get the maximum score on their "application score sheet" and showing it to me as proof, post-interview communications both to myself and my home PD). I think that was primarily because of my PhD and 30+ pubs/abstracts, even though my research has nothing to do with my chosen specialty.

But again, there are other, less time-consuming ways to achieve the same thing. There was one other applicant who I met at basically all of my interviews. This person was a MD-only student who was a lot younger than me. I think the main reasons they were able to land all of the "top" academic interviews were because 1) they had similar medical school stats as me, 2) they had chosen our specialty early in medical school and became very involved, having multiple national leadership positions and becoming very well-connected, and 3) they had extensive experience in health services research. I would certainly NOT do a MD/PhD with the primary goal of making yourself competitive for a good residency program.

As an aside, I think that for me personally, I don't think I would have done as well in my clinical clerkships if I had gone straight through medical school. I think that my PhD years helped me to develop team work skills and maturity that I wouldn't have had otherwise. So that was another benefit of the MD/PhD, for me.

5) Finally, I said the same thing in another thread, but don't worry if the specialty you ultimately decide on has nothing to do with your PhD research. This was the case for me and it didn't hinder me in any way. I was universally told that 1) they value my experience and skill set more than the actual topic of my research, and 2) it's going to be many (7+) years between when I finish my PhD and when I seriously dabble in basic research again during fellowship - by then, the basic science field would have changed so much that whatever I did during my PhD would be very outdated anyway.

I bolded and underlined because you bolded some stuff. Does the underlined part seem fulfilling to you? So they're not really doing much research themselves and they also only do 1 operation.

It just seems like spreading yourself way too thin. It's like the person who wants to be an officer in 30 different clubs. You never actually know what is going on with any of them. (Totally different scale but same concept)
 
Yeah, I agree with you in some respects. It really depends on your career goals and what you find fulfilling. I think being a surgeon-scientist like the ones I've met is great if 1) you don't mind being an ultra-specialist within your field, and 2) you are happy taking on an overseer role for your lab, without being physically in there with your crew every day of the week. Personally I think I fit both criteria, so I'm happy being a MD/PhD going into my specialty. The mentors I've met are certainly happy with what they do (and yes, most of them manage to have great family lives and outside interests, at least from what I can tell).

But who knows, residency and fellowship are going to be long processes, and my thinking could certainly change.
 
Anyway, my main point is that being a surgeon-scientist especially under the current anti-science climate is a pretty risky and ultimately
I'm guessing from your post history that there is about a 99% chance you are Eugene.

Not sure what his history has anything to do with the OP's question (not that it has anything to do with the topics in the other threads you've spammed about this).

Dude, you seem rather defensive. His history has a lot to do with the OP's question. Do you only want to cite rosy examples of surgeon-scientists who breeze through everything and win a Nobel prize and life is so dandy? I felt it necessary to bring to light an example when everything does not go well and, in fact, can be a cautionary tale. It's great that you believe that there is a 99% I am Eugene. Especially if that were the case, then my words would carry 99% more weight and be 99% more relevant to this discussion wouldn't it?
 
At the five medical schools where I've been, from grad student to now (over a 30+ year history), I'd estimate that that about 80% of them were PIs 100% of the time, and the other 20% had some clinical duties, in addition to being PIs. They were miserable when grant deadlines came around.



Excuse my ignorance, but what exactly do most MD/PhDs do with their PhD?

Also, regarding your last point: I wanted to focus on regenerative biology of musculoskeletal tissues like bone/intervertebral disc/cartilage; wouldn't this be directly relevant to orthopedics in general and even more so to specific subspecialties like joint-replacement, ligament/tendon reconstruction surgery, cartilage implantation, etc. Wouldn't PhDs in such fields reinforce the surgical practice?

My dream would be to be an ortho (I fully realize this is a super-competitive field in itself, requiring stellar Step 1, clinical grades, etc.; I'm just painting my ideal scenario) who does surgical procedures but who also aims to improve these same procedures. I'd think being an orthopod and doing research in regenerative musculoskeletal biology would pretty strongly go hand-in-hand.
 
I have a question for @SouthernSurgeon or any others with experience on this issue. If it is so difficult to maintain the balance of a surgeon scientist, and if many surgeons do not go on to do research, why does there appear to be a large emphasis on research for surgical specialty residencies?
 
I have a question for @SouthernSurgeon or any others with experience on this issue. If it is so difficult to maintain the balance of a surgeon scientist, and if many surgeons do not go on to do research, why does there appear to be a large emphasis on research for surgical specialty residencies?

Most residency programs are academic in nature. In order to obtain funding from certain organizations, such a program needs to provide proof of a research component. Also, to advance an academic career (professor status etc), an attending needs to have publications. A resident who does projects helps improve the program and makes the attendings look good-- therefore, med students who are involved in research are desirable.
 
Also, most academic residency programs prefer that their trainees go into academia. Statistically, students with strong research track record are more likely to go into academia.

At least, that was what I was told when I asked my home PD and various residency PDs why my MD/PhD made me a more attractive candidate for them, considering I won't be doing much in the way of basic research during residency.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app
 
Most residency programs are academic in nature. In order to obtain funding from certain organizations, such a program needs to provide proof of a research component. Also, to advance an academic career (professor status etc), an attending needs to have publications. A resident who does projects helps improve the program and makes the attendings look good-- therefore, med students who are involved in research are desirable.

Also, most academic residency programs prefer that their trainees go into academia. Statistically, students with strong research track record are more likely to go into academia.

At least, that was what I was told when I asked my home PD and various residency PDs why my MD/PhD made me a more attractive candidate for them, considering I won't be doing much in the way of basic research during residency.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app

Ah, I see. Makes sense. Thanks to the both of you.
 
Based on the wikipedia link Eugene's real troubles aren't because he's a surgeon scientist, they're because he works with fetal tissue. An internist/pediatrician +/- cardiology or nephrology fellowship would have the same issues he's faced with regards to government subpoenas and attacks from right wing media.
 
Top