MD/PhD and Psychology

[Neurosis]

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Okay, I know this particular question has been asked before (and I have asked it, on the wrong forum no less) but I am really curious about this program. First of I would like to start off by giving a brief description of myself: URM, 3.90 GPA (after first semester), majoring in, and passionate about Psychology. I know as a non-basic science, it isn't really approved nationally among the MSTP institution, however I still would like to pursue such a program. I know it exists in a few schools, I know of Dartmouth, Harvard and U of Rochester (my dream school/my local university) that may offer the program. But the reason I'm posting in the first place is to see why there is so much resistance against social science MD/PhD, and to see why it wouldn't be feasible to pursue it. Again, sorry for creating another thread like this but I would like personalized answers for this one.

 

[SBR249]

Met a psych interviewee at Penn too, so you may want to put that school on your list as well.

 

[Neurosis]

Met a psych interviewee at Penn too, so you may want to put that school on your list as well.

eh, thanks. I know Penn is almost impossible to get into though 🙁

 

[SBR249]

eh, thanks. I know Penn is almost impossible to get into though 🙁

More impossible than Harvard? That's gotta be some voodoo magic because they have an MSTP class 2.5 times the size of Harvard's MSTP.

 

[ElChamaco]

These are the schools I applied to as a social science MD/PhD:

Harvard
Penn
Johns Hopkins
WashU
UCSF
Yale
Duke
U Mich
University of Chicago
UCLA
UCSD
Emory
Case

I recommend calling the MSTP offices or email the directors and explaining what you want to do and ask if the program would be open to your application.

 

[Neurosis]

These are the schools I applied to as a social science MD/PhD:

Harvard
Penn
Johns Hopkins
WashU
UCSF
Yale
Duke
U Mich
University of Chicago
UCLA
UCSD
Emory
Case

I recommend calling the MSTP offices or email the directors and explaining what you want to do and ask if the program would be open to your application.

of course, they are all highly ranked schools :cry:. But thanks for the list nonetheless. Hopefully I will find more instate schools

 

[Starlightembers]

of course, they are all highly ranked schools :cry:. But thanks for the list nonetheless. Hopefully I will find more instate schools

You're a NYer, I assume (I am, as well)? That I know of, no schools in NYS other than of UofRochester allow for social science PhDs.

 

[Neurosis]

You're a NYer, I assume (I am, as well)? That I know of, no schools in NYS other than of UofRochester allow for social science PhDs.

Well I guess that's my best bet for medical/graduate school (at least for now. you never know right 😉) And it's nice to meet another new yorker on these forums.

 

[ElChamaco]

of course, they are all highly ranked schools :cry:. But thanks for the list nonetheless. Hopefully I will find more instate schools

Keep your grades up and most importantly start doing research now on a project that you can get heavily involved in and think about taking a year off to do full-time research. If you throw yourself into your research and make good grades and score well on the MCAT then you will have a great chance at any MSTP. You don't need a crazy MCAT score, but a 35 or more will guarantee that you are not passed over because of your MCAT anywhere.

Part of the problem with the social science MD/PhD is that the programs most open to it are the most highly ranked. Only a few schools accept social science MD/PhDs and of those that do nearly all accept at most 1-2 social science MD/PhD and often there are years when they won't accept any, so you are going to need a compelling application for any school.

A school I did not apply to that is open to social science MD/PhDs and is less competitive is the Univ of Illinois Urbana-Champaign.

Also, I don't know enough about the field of psychology to give any advice on the matter, but you might explore the option of doing the type of research you want as a straight MD. I have to say I have never heard of anyone doing a joint MD/PhD in psychology, though I'm sure it has been done. The most common fields as far as I can tell are anthropology and history.

Good luck.

 

[SBR249]

I hear University of Illinois Chicago is also open to those interested in non-traditional PhDs.

 

[intricacy]

It might be worth looking into Neuroscience/Neurobiology programs if you're interested in Psych. From what I've seem, many psych professors have some appointment in a neuroscience-related department as well.

 

[Neuronix]

Okay, I know this particular question has been asked before (and I have asked it, on the wrong forum no less) but I am really curious about this program. First of I would like to start off by giving a brief description of myself: URM, 3.90 GPA (after first semester), majoring in, and passionate about Psychology. I know as a non-basic science, it isn't really approved nationally among the MSTP institution, however I still would like to pursue such a program. I know it exists in a few schools, I know of Dartmouth, Harvard and U of Rochester (my dream school/my local university) that may offer the program. But the reason I'm posting in the first place is to see why there is so much resistance against social science MD/PhD, and to see why it wouldn't be feasible to pursue it. Again, sorry for creating another thread like this but I would like personalized answers for this one.

eh, thanks. I know Penn is almost impossible to get into though 🙁

You are a URM with a 3.9 GPA. Don't sell yourself short. Keep up the GPA, get research experience ASAP and as much as possible, and score high on the MCAT (aim for 34+). If you do that, there is no reason you won't end up at a top program.

of course, they are all highly ranked schools :cry:. But thanks for the list nonetheless. Hopefully I will find more instate schools

You won't. The NIH prefers to fund basic science MD/PhD students. The big private schools have more funding to fund alternative MD/PhD students. Some programs (lower ranked/some state programs) will take social science students with limited/tenuous funding. Aim for a fully-funded MSTP position as this creates much less hassle for you. The limited number of positions does make social science positions more competitive, and that's just the nature of things.

It might be worth looking into Neuroscience/Neurobiology programs if you're interested in Psych. From what I've seem, many psych professors have some appointment in a neuroscience-related department as well.

This is a good suggestion for several reasons. It makes your life as an MD/PhD student easier to do your PhD in a biomedical department. What type of psych research are you proposing to do? Many branches can be studied within a neuroscience PhD through various techniques. Also, are you sure you need an MD to do what you want to do? You may be served well with a PhD in clinical psychology. Note that if you are considering this, you need to decide if you want to be a psychologist or a psychiatrist at some point. This may help guide your decision making. MDs/Psychiatrists more deal with meds, neurotransmitters, disease models, and the like which lend themselves to biomedical and bench research. This is the traditional MD/PhD model and creates no particular hassles. PhDs in Clinical psychology more deal with psychotherapy and non-bench techniques. So for now focus on getting research experience and deciding which sort of pathway you'd best fit into.

If you want to break the mold that's not a bad thing, but I don't think you're ready to ask this question about MD/PhD programs. Save it for another year or two when you have more research and shadowing experience, as then you will know for sure if you fit into a more traditional pathway or if you really need to ask about squeezing between the traditional pathways.

 

[Neurosis]

This is a good suggestion for several reasons. It makes your life as an MD/PhD student easier to do your PhD in a biomedical department. What type of psych research are you proposing to do? Many branches can be studied within a neuroscience PhD through various techniques. Also, are you sure you need an MD to do what you want to do? You may be served well with a PhD in clinical psychology. Note that if you are considering this, you need to decide if you want to be a psychologist or a psychiatrist at some point. This may help guide your decision making. MDs/Psychiatrists more deal with meds, neurotransmitters, disease models, and the like which lend themselves to biomedical and bench research. This is the traditional MD/PhD model and creates no particular hassles. PhDs in Clinical psychology more deal with psychotherapy and non-bench techniques. So for now focus on getting research experience and deciding which sort of pathway you'd best fit into.

If you want to break the mold that's not a bad thing, but I don't think you're ready to ask this question about MD/PhD programs. Save it for another year or two when you have more research and shadowing experience, as then you will know for sure if you fit into a more traditional pathway or if you really need to ask about squeezing between the traditional pathways.

I'm definitely sure I want to do psychiatry (personal reasons as to why) but I felt that I would get enough biomedical background/perspective simply by the med school proponent of the MD/PhD program. I want to have both psychological and biomedical perspectives when either doing research or making diagnoses. I know this is pretty much unheard of but I thought I meant as well try. Also I'm aware of the neuroscience option, and I haven't entirely ruled it out. In fact, if there was a cognitive or behavioral neuroscience program I would definitely choose that above Psychology or Neuroscience.

 

[ImagineThis]

It might be worth looking into Neuroscience/Neurobiology programs if you're interested in Psych. From what I've seem, many psych professors have some appointment in a neuroscience-related department as well.

This is excellent advice as I'm sure you can tell by the fact that Neuronix is backing it. A little background on me: I do neuroimaging and a lot of my previous research has actually been with psych professors. Although I am more on the neuroscience side of things, I was still a little worried applying to programs in that what I do is basic science but it is not traditional bench research. I ended up being totally fine. Not only did programs view the neuroscience side of my research as completely legitimate (as ANY psychology or behavior research is closely linked to neuroscience) but many actively encouraged me to meet with professors housed in the Psychology department (although, as intracacy points out, most of them also had an appointment in a neuroscience-related field). I'm sure there are more, but the list above is a very good start for programs that would support your interests. Also, Pitt has the Center for the Neural Basis of Cognition, so if you have an interest in the neuroscience side of psychology (like I do), you would 100% be a fit there.

Best of luck 👍.

 

[StoicJosher]

I hear University of Illinois Chicago is also open to those interested in non-traditional PhDs.

I can confirm this.

 

[Starlightembers]

I'm definitely sure I want to do psychiatry (personal reasons as to why) but I felt that I would get enough biomedical background/perspective simply by the med school proponent of the MD/PhD program. I want to have both psychological and biomedical perspectives when either doing research or making diagnoses. I know this is pretty much unheard of but I thought I meant as well try. Also I'm aware of the neuroscience option, and I haven't entirely ruled it out. In fact, if there was a cognitive or behavioral neuroscience program I would definitely choose that above Psychology or Neuroscience.

From what I can tell, there is not a shortage of these programs. Some are actual, separate degrees from the traditional Neuroscience program, while others -- most -- are departments within that. Look through the websites of the schools you are interested in.

Just from a quick Google search:

OHSU. Emory. Wayne State. Chicago. MIT (Harvard-MIT MD/PhD program). Boston University. UofMich. UPenn. UC-Irvine. UCLA. Stanford? (maybe?) UCSF (certain faculty). Hopkins. UMaryland. Yale (maybe, certain faculty)? There are many others, too, I am sure. This is a list of MSTP programs and this is a list of all MD/PhD programs (MSTP and non-MSTP), if you would like to look through them.

 

[Neurosis]

From what I can tell, there is not a shortage of these programs. Some are actual, separate degrees from the traditional Neuroscience program, while others -- most -- are departments within that. Look through the websites of the schools you are interested in.

Just from a quick Google search:

OHSU. Emory. Wayne State. Chicago. MIT (Harvard-MIT MD/PhD program). Boston University. UofMich. UPenn. UC-Irvine. UCLA. Stanford? (maybe?) UCSF (certain faculty). Hopkins. UMaryland. Yale (maybe, certain faculty)? There are many others, too, I am sure. This is a list of MSTP programs and this is a list of all MD/PhD programs (MSTP and non-MSTP), if you would like to look through them.

thanks, I'll check them out 👍

 

[strangeglove]

I did my PhD in Neuroscience. My dissertation was on the cognitive neuroscience of emotion and decision-making and their relationship to addiction. I did a residency in psychiatry. Now I study how psychotherapies for addiction work. My cognitive neuroscience training included cognitive psychology, evolutionary psychology, social psychology, philosophy of mind, animal behavior, neuropsychology, in addition to neuroanatomy, developmental neurobiology, molecular biology, neurophysiology, statistics. I found this training quite helpful in becoming a translational researcher.

 

[Silverfalcon]

I'm definitely sure I want to do psychiatry (personal reasons as to why) but I felt that I would get enough biomedical background/perspective simply by the med school proponent of the MD/PhD program. I want to have both psychological and biomedical perspectives when either doing research or making diagnoses. I know this is pretty much unheard of but I thought I meant as well try. Also I'm aware of the neuroscience option, and I haven't entirely ruled it out. In fact, if there was a cognitive or behavioral neuroscience program I would definitely choose that above Psychology or Neuroscience.

Since you are a freshman, I'll try to make it sound as soft as possible. The quoted part seriously reveals that you have no idea what it means to be for MD/PhD program - the idea of "psychological and biomedical perspectives when either doing research or making diagnoses" is extremely common. In fact, that's the definition of research scientist when he/she takes the disease from bedside and examines it on bench (lab).

The better question you should ask yourself is, whether your primary interest will be on treating patients or devoting your life to research. And you don't need the answer now, but you should consider that if you are set to this path. MD/PhD isn't 50/50 between diagnosis and research. As you go on this route more, you will even realize whether you need MD (or PhD) at all - and I have a feeling that your "interest" in Psychology at this point doesn't really strike as needing both degrees.

 

[Neuronix]

I'm definitely sure I want to do psychiatry (personal reasons as to why) but I felt that I would get enough biomedical background/perspective simply by the med school proponent of the MD/PhD program. I want to have both psychological and biomedical perspectives when either doing research or making diagnoses. I know this is pretty much unheard of but I thought I meant as well try. Also I'm aware of the neuroscience option, and I haven't entirely ruled it out. In fact, if there was a cognitive or behavioral neuroscience program I would definitely choose that above Psychology or Neuroscience.

Do you plan on spending most of your time performing research or clinical work?

You will gain the psychological and biomedical perspectives on behavior by nature of performing medical school and a psychiatry residency. A PhD program (particularly when combined with an MD) trains you in a subspecialized area of research with the goal of making you a career researcher. It does not make you a better clinician. You pick which PhD based on what type of area in which you plan on doing your research.

 

[phonyreal98]

This is excellent advice as I'm sure you can tell by the fact that Neuronix is backing it. A little background on me: I do neuroimaging and a lot of my previous research has actually been with psych professors. Although I am more on the neuroscience side of things, I was still a little worried applying to programs in that what I do is basic science but it is not traditional bench research. I ended up being totally fine. Not only did programs view the neuroscience side of my research as completely legitimate (as ANY psychology or behavior research is closely linked to neuroscience) but many actively encouraged me to meet with professors housed in the Psychology department (although, as intracacy points out, most of them also had an appointment in a neuroscience-related field). I'm sure there are more, but the list above is a very good start for programs that would support your interests. Also, Pitt has the Center for the Neural Basis of Cognition, so if you have an interest in the neuroscience side of psychology (like I do), you would 100% be a fit there.

Best of luck 👍.

Would you mind giving us a list of places you applied? I'm interested in doing neuroscience research, but more on the end of behavioral or cognitive neuroscience rather than molecular or cellular neuroscience...I know not every MD/PhD program offers this, but I'm trying to see if there's anywhere I might consider, particularly somewhere that might have a lower GPA/MCAT average, since my list currently seems to me to be top-heavy.

 

[ImagineThis]

Would you mind giving us a list of places you applied? I'm interested in doing neuroscience research, but more on the end of behavioral or cognitive neuroscience rather than molecular or cellular neuroscience...I know not every MD/PhD program offers this, but I'm trying to see if there's anywhere I might consider, particularly somewhere that might have a lower GPA/MCAT average, since my list currently seems to me to be top-heavy.

Of course. I'll PM it to you.