MD/PhD has MSTP..What about MD's?

[ChinaDoll]

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Ok..I am new and kinda confused...so bear with me

MD/PhD people have MSTP program to apply to and get fully funded...does this mean MD only applicants are in great disadvantage? Do MD students also have good opportunity to get full scholarship or funds or whatever?? Or med school usually gives fund to MD/PhD people?


Ok..I dont know...so please answer me! thanks!

 

[SN2ed]

If you don't love, not just like, but love, research, do NOT apply MD/PhD.

 

[Beta Cell]

Ok..I am new and kinda confused...so bear with me

MD/PhD people have MSTP program to apply to and get fully funded...does this mean MD only applicants are in great disadvantage? Do MD students also have good opportunity to get full scholarship or funds or whatever?? Or med school usually gives fund to MD/PhD people?

It's just confusing...I am leaning towards MD more than MD/PhD because research is just not for me (sorry...) And after I read so many threads about the fully funded MD/PhD people and such..I get a little scared (for real!!) and thinking may be I should apply MD/PhD???😕
Ok..I dont know...so please answer me! thanks!

Most people graduate medical school with some form of debt. Don't enter into MD/PhD just because it's free -- it has a fairly high dropout rate. A fair amount of the MD/PhD people end up dropping the PhD and going for just an MD. You don't like research, so therefore don't apply MD/PhD. The admissions process is significantly harder for MD/PhD's and I would assume getting the PhD itself would be extremely hard if you didn't like research. Many schools offer tons of options: you can have something similar to a "med scholars" program where you take 2 years off to complete research and possibly two years more after residency (and by then you can really decide if you want to do research or just go straight into practice), you can apply into MD/PhD after your first year, you can do a combined MD/MS, etc.

If you don't like research, you probably won't be accepted MD/PhD because you don't have the research qualifications. Simply put, don't go into the medical school admissions process expecting a full-ride or anything more than just the acceptance. If you do receive a scholarship, it probably won't be full and you'll be pleasantly surprised.

 

[CoolWhipp]

I am leaning towards MD more than MD/PhD because research is just not for me (sorry...)

If you know that for sure, PhD should not be an option. Do you want to do research for 4-7 years? Probably not, so don't take a spot for the MSTP program. You would be wasting your time. There are ways to pay for medical school, even if you have to loan it.

 

[Beta Cell]

If you know that for sure, PhD should not be an option. Do you want to do research for 4-7 years? Probably not, so don't take a spot for the MSTP program. You would be wasting your time. There are ways to pay for medical school, even if you have to loan it.

MD/PhD programs generally make the PhD 3-5 years. Pure PhD is 4-7 + Postdoctoral work.

 

[NeuroChaos]

Realize that MD/Ph.D is a double degree not just an MD with research. You will spend 4+ years in Lab and if you hate bench work, you just wasted 4 years of your life just so you could get a full ride. The full ride is there as an incentive for MD/PhDs because the huge debts that an MD degree will incur will make MD/Phd hopefuls think twice of spending another four years living below the poverty level.


MDs donot get full ride or scholarhships (some scholarships do exist) because generally medical graduates have little to no trouble paying off their debts in a timely manner. You will be in 200k+ debt once you get out of Med school, but all of it can be paid off w/ a physicians salary.

 

[Red Leader]

Yes, for MD students its called financial aid. No joke.

If you do not like research and cash is your only reason for wanting to do MSTP, that is a huge mistake. You do not want to be doing something you hate for at least 4 years of your life.

 

[CoolWhipp]

MD/PhD programs generally make the PhD 3-5 years. Pure PhD is 4-7 + Postdoctoral work.

I see. I personally never met or heard anyone that got their PhD from an MSTP in 3 years. If you have, I stand corrected.

 

[Red Leader]

I see. I personally never met or heard anyone that got their PhD from an MSTP in 3 years. If you have, I stand corrected.

Actually CoolWhipp you are kind of right about 6-7 years of research as most MSTP applicants have significant amounts of research experience on the order of several years. Not necessarily publications, but enough research experiences to show they mean it. With only 10 spots roughly per school (bar some exceptions) gauging true interest from those who are only after the stipend is key.

 

[Beta Cell]

I see. I personally never met or heard anyone that got their PhD from an MSTP in 3 years. If you have, I stand corrected.

There you go:

http://neurosurgery.ucsf.edu/index.php/about_us_residents_lu.html

 

[CoolWhipp]

There you go:

http://neurosurgery.ucsf.edu/index.php/about_us_residents_lu.html

Impressive, I'm glad I was wrong. But in most cases, 4 years is considered fast.

 

[normlsaline]

Yes, for MD students its called financial aid. No joke.

If you do not like research and cash is your only reason for wanting to do MSTP, that is a huge mistake. You do not want to be doing something you hate for at least 4 years of your life.

Or steal that opportunity from someone else! OP, you seem to be a little confused and misguided. So tell me, is medicine something you really want to do or something your parents told you to do? Because there is a difference...🙄

 

[CoolWhipp]

So tell me, is medicine something you really want to do or something your parents told you to do? Because there is a difference...🙄

MSTP is the new MD. Too many parents have kids going into 'just' medicine and its losing the 'prestige.'

All jokes aside though, people with MD/PhD degrees live totally different lifestyles than clinical MD's. I suggest thinking about what kind of interest you have as well as the lifestyle you want to live. If you are an MD/PhD practicing solely as a clinician, what's the point? I met an MD/PhD who got offered $500k a year at a neighboring hospital to practice solely as a physician and rejected it. He was earning less than half of that ($170k), he had told me that he didn't get an MD/PhD to "work in a hospital all day long" and that it was a "waste" of his degree.

 

[FuturaDocta]

MDs donot get full ride or scholarhships (some scholarships do exist) because generally medical graduates have little to no trouble paying off their debts in a timely manner. You will be in 200k+ debt once you get out of Med school, but all of it can be paid off w/ a physicians salary.

Not true... Because there is a couple of students that I know who got full rides. And, now that they are finished with med school, I found out one of them is going to help serve the army as a doctor.

PS. It was a really prestigious school too.

 

[starfishprime]

Not true... Because there is a couple of students that I know who got full rides. And, now that they are finished with med school, I found out one of them is going to help serve the army as a doctor.

PS. It was a really prestigious school too.

"Full ride" in this case is a misnomer. Instead of paying with cash dollars he'll be paying for med school with several years of his life. Debt is debt.

 

[FuturaDocta]

"Full ride" in this case is a misnomer. Instead of paying with cash dollars he'll be paying for med school with several years of his life. Debt is debt.

Well, she got the full ride despite her will to serve. She decided while she was already a medical student. Sounds like a rough road to me as well. But, some people have a lot of resilience and feel an obligation to heal others.

 

[shemarty]

There are some people who are offered merit-based "full ride" scholarships, but they are rare, so don't count on that. Assume that you will have debt.

 

[URHere]

MD/PhD people have MSTP program to apply to and get fully funded...does this mean MD only applicants are in great disadvantage? Do MD students also have good opportunity to get full scholarship or funds or whatever?? Or med school usually gives fund to MD/PhD people?

I think you may be a little unclear on what the MSTP program is. That program is a federal government program designed to create more physician scientists. It usually covers the first year or so of school/stipend for the students (the money comes from the feds, not the schools). After that, MSTP students are partially supported by their schools, their labs, and their own grants.

I suppose my point is that the schools do not just dish out 7+ years worth of cash to MSTP students. Sure, some non-MSTP programs might, but in general, the MSTP programs are not taking money away from MD only student scholarships. The money comes from different places.

 

[NickNaylor]

Another point to remember is that MD/Ph.D programs are designed for people interested in going into research as a career. Even if you have an interest in research, you will probably get eliminated from the process once you say you want to be a physician and not a scientist. Graduates from MSTP programs that become physicians are considered failures; it's not the goal of the program.

 

[ninetynine]

I have a few thoughts, so for the sake of simplicity, I'll just bullet point.

1. Why MD/PhD is funded, and MD isn't:

Grad schools (Master's programs, PhD programs) usually give students a stipend and help cover the student's education in the form of teaching assistantships, research fellowships, etc. The point is that they're training tomorrow's scientists, who will give back to the science world and hopefully make a name for the school and support the science community. So the schools pay. Professional schools (MD, JD, MBA programs, etc.) tend to be very expensive because (as far as the school is concerned) students are there to advance their own careers and make more money by getting a higher degree so the student has to pay. They'll just leave the school and get their own job anyway, whereas grad students and PhD programs are designed as science training programs. Similarly, MD/PhD programs were established to give research-driven individuals a solid training in medicine and science to ultimately produce tomorrow's best biomedical scientists. That's why it takes so long, is so hard to get into, and so rigorous, and why the NIH funds MSTP programs. The point is to train scientists, and that's why they pay for you. MD/PhD programs are not to produce physicians strictly, but physician-scientists to advance the science world. Because of this, there is no NIH funding for med school. The NIH is a research-oriented center. Its real mission is science more than merely producing doctors. The NIH was started as a lab, and continues to fund labs and people who work in and will work in labs. I'm oversimplifying a little, but that's the gyst of the difference between MD and MD/PhD and why one is funeded and the other isn't..

2. How long for the PhD?

Usually MD/PhD programs have an accelerated PhD portion. The traditional format is 2 years MD (these are just book learning - for boards round 1 ), 3 years PhD (they shove you through it fast) and another 2 years of MD (clinical wards for boards round 2). Your first board scores expire after 5 years, so that's why most schools will try to get you to finish the PhD in 3. But if you don't feel you can finish your PhD in 3 years, it's a good idea to consider taking your boards later. Many MD/PhD programs have different formats and mix things up, but that's the "traditional" one. The obvious rigor of MD/PhD is why it is so competitive to get into. People who aren't in love with research just don't do as well, and there is a high MD/PhD student attrition rate because of this. Why waste your life doing something you don't love?

So yeah, final point, like everyone else above me is saying - MD/PhD is for research. not money.

 

[Charles_Carmichael]

2. How long for the PhD?

Usually MD/PhD programs have an accelerated PhD portion. The traditional format is 2 years MD (these are just book learning - for boards round 1 ), 3 years PhD (they shove you through it fast) and another 2 years of MD (clinical wards for boards round 2). Your first board scores expire after 5 years, so that's why most schools will try to get you to finish the PhD in 3. But if you don't feel you can finish your PhD in 3 years, it's a good idea to consider taking your boards later. Many MD/PhD programs have different formats and mix things up, but that's the "traditional" one. The obvious rigor of MD/PhD is why it is so competitive to get into. People who aren't in love with research just don't do as well, and there is a high MD/PhD student attrition rate because of this. Why waste your life doing something you don't love?

So yeah, final point, like everyone else above me is saying - MD/PhD is for research. not money.

That's not true. 3 years for a PhD is very fast and rare; I've never heard of anyone getting a PhD in 3 years. They don't shove you through it fast either; from what I gathered from reading the Physician Scientist forum, PIs like having students working for them and sometimes even try to keep them longer (ie. prevent them from getting a PhD until a while later).

And not every school does 2 years of med school followed by PhD followed by clinical years. At the school I attend, for example, you can take the basic science courses for med school anytime during your PhD; so you can take one or two M1/M2 courses per semester. So, there's no worry about board scores expiring and thus, there's no worry about "pushing" you through a PhD.

 

[URHere]

I just want to add a few things to this

I have a few thoughts, so for the sake of simplicity, I'll just bullet point.

1. Why MD/PhD is funded, and MD isn't:

1) Unlike students who go through MD only programs, MD/PhD students are generally prepping themselves to make far less money once they graduate. In general, clinical work pays much more than science, and the more time a physician scientist spends in lab, the less they can expect to make per year. Because programs are so long, very few people would opt to earn both degrees if they knew they would have so much loan money to repay on a lower salary.

2) Like other graduate students, MD/PhD students provide cheap labor for labs at their schools. It would be unreasonable to not pay PhD students for their time, and the added pay/tuition waver during the MD portion is necessary because many students do PhD work during their MD years in the program. Again, it's also an added incentive for taking time for those extra years.

3) As this poster said, the government has an interest in training physician scientists who can participate in translational research. Who better to do research targeting clinical problems than those trained in both areas?

2. How long for the PhD?

In general, the PhD portion of a program is anywhere from 3 (rare) to 5 years, depending on how lucky a student gets with his/her research. MD/PhD students generally finish their PhDs more quickly than PhD students, but this is mostly because they may take graduate courses or complete rotations during their MS1 and MS2 years. This leaves more time for thesis work once they hit the graduate years, and lets them hit the ground running.

Note that time will vary depending on the student, the PI, and luck. PhDs are unpredictable and have no definite endpoint.

Also, the issue isn't so much that board scores expire...the problem is that some states require all licensing exams to be taken within a certain number of years of eachother. Many states grant exemptions for MD/PhD students, and others don't restrict this at all.

 

[richse]

I see. I personally never met or heard anyone that got their PhD from an MSTP in 3 years. If you have, I stand corrected.

I have met quite a few that finished in 3 years and one that finished in 2 years. Three is actually pretty normal at most schools since you do rotations during the first two years of med school and pick your thesis lab right at the start of the PhD portion. Normal time in a thesis lab is about 3 or 3.5 years for regular PhD students so for most MD/PHDs finishing in 3 years is reasonable. People on here saying its 4-7 years in addition to med school are either talking about some worst case at a specific school or are misinformed.

 

[Red Leader]

I have met quite a few that finished in 3 years and one that finished in 2 years. Three is actually pretty normal at most schools since you do rotations during the first two years of med school and pick your thesis lab right at the start of the PhD portion. Normal time in a thesis lab is about 3 or 3.5 years for regular PhD students so for most MD/PHDs finishing in 3 years is reasonable. People on here saying its 4-7 years in addition to med school are either talking about some worst case at a specific school or are misinformed.

No dude, many PhD programs can easily last more than 4 years. In several labs at my school the average is 7 years for PhD.

2 years PhD in MSTP? No way. The program is designed to be 8 years long: 2 yrs MD, 4 years PhD (tentative), 2 years MD.

If you look up the averages for MD-PhD grads it takes about 7.8 years on average to complete. I think that was a stat from a year ago, and I remember even further back the average was something like 6.5 years. However, while this varies from person to person and from school to school, I don't believe you can get a PhD in 2 years. Masters programs are 2 years...

 

[r1oid]

3 years is very uncommon for a MSTP program. There are some non MSTP MD/PhD programs that "guarantee" your PhD in 3 but these programs are defiantly not MSTP, and I was discouraged from applying to such programs back in the day. The NIH tries to encourage programs to get the PhD to around 4 years (through constant student updates with their committees and program directors) so most programs have a PhD average around 4-4.5 years. If there was a MSTP program consistently pumping out a lot of 3 year PhD's that would raise a red flag.