MD/PhD, is it really a good idea?

[iwutitan]

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I was heading to apply to MD PhD program, to me finishing both degrees in 6-7 years sounds good right? Tonight I was dining with a MD and he was saying that he thinks it is a really bad idea. The problem he described is that schools wouldn't give you your MD degree until you finish your PhD degree and they often make it difficult on you, make you extend your time working in lab for them, some people waste >10 years trying to finish the PhD part and are not yet given their MD degree. In that case, doing a combined degree would take longer than finish the two degree separately. The MD argued that MD PhD programs first sound attractive because of the free ride but you end up in more financial problem, while other people finish their MD and start with a MD income, MD PhD people still have to slave over the school to finish their PhD part, the stipend for PhD in this case don't matter anymore. Plus MD are generally more respected. What do you guys think?

 

[DrBowtie]

Its a good idea if you want to do medical research. If so, you would know that they don't make as much as a private practice MD. As for MD's being generally more respected, an MD/PhD program gives you an MD. You should do a bit more research about it b/c you seem a bit clueless about it.

 

[teh-t]

the few md/phds i know work ~9-10 years for their degrees

i myself will take 10 years, although i took a different route in that I have already earned my phd and will be starting med school this fall

 

[teh-t]

i also agree that with the MD you spoke with. You are totally at the mercy of your phd advisor as to how long it will take. Most phd programs allow up to 6 years to complete this degree. Since your stipend is funded by NIH, you are essentially free labor, and thus the professor will most likely keep you as long as he can. Only after your phd is awarded can you begin your clerkships and then your MD degree

do some more reasearch

 

[teh-t]

also only do it if your are interested in blending basic science and clinical medicine

 

[iwutitan]

Its a good idea if you want to do medical research. You should do a bit more research about it b/c you seem a bit clueless about it.

May be you don't get my question here. Considering that I want to do medical research, would it be better to complete the two degrees separately or go with the combined program? The MD that I talked to thinks that MD PhD programs take longer to complete than what is advertised

 

[teh-t]

May be you don't get my question here. Considering that I want to do medical research, would it be better to complete the two degrees separately or go with the combined program? The MD that I talked to thinks that MD PhD programs take longer to complete than what is advertised

most definitely... see my above post.

 

[iwutitan]

i also agree that with the MD you spoke with. You are totally at the mercy of your phd advisor as to how long it will take. Most phd programs allow up to 6 years to complete this degree. Since your stipend is funded by NIH, you are essentially free labor, and thus the professor will most likely keep you as long as he can.

That totally sucks, what if you end up with a bad advisor, or if... he dies, if you work with rats, what if your rats die, then students would be majorly screwed. ok, I am just being 😡

 

[teh-t]

unfortunately, our phd system is in dire need of reform. I myself was fortunate to have a great advisor who pushed me to be my best, gave great support, and understood that things dont always go how you want them to. He was a newly hired assistant professor (a risky choice, but one that paid off) who has achieved much in science.

the choice of advisor is the single most important choice a phd student will make

 

[teh-t]

That totally sucks, what if you end up with a bad advisor, or if... he dies, if you work with rats, what if your rats die, then students would be majorly screwed. ok, I am just being 😡

lol... seriously though, these are real risks. For example, I did not want to work with an old dude because of the risk of him passing away and being unable to write recommendations for me (which I will be asking for even as a seasoned professional)

 

[j8131]

If you know you want to do both degrees, it's much better to do the combined degree program. The MD is funded, the PhD usually takes less time than done by itself, it's arguably more prestigious than done separately.

About the MD being more respected, well, that depends on who you talk to. But one thing's for sure, if you plan to be working with MDs, you want to have an MD.

 

[dave613]

How can an MD be more respected than an MD/PhD--someone want to explain what the logic is here?

 

[chattkis]

Post this down in the MSTP forum below. As far as it taking 10 years because you are free labor... sure I'm sure it happens, but who says you have to be a doormat and let it happen? It's your research, so finish it!

 

[Without Wax]

you should NOT get into MD/PhD program for the respect you will get.
you will spend 10 years doing things that you find miserable.

I think MD/PhD is for people who are serious about research, who have a clear vision of what he/she is going to do.

OP seems like he/she has little clue. if you are doing it for the respect, then I advise you to reconsider.

 

[chattkis]

you should NOT get into MD/PhD program for the respect you will get.
you will spend 10 years doing things that you find miserable.

I think MD/PhD is for people who are serious about research, who have a clear vision of what he/she is going to do.

this is true!

 

[LizzyM]

The MD/PhD makes far more sense than PhD followed by MD because with the MD/PhD the MD tuition is covered and you receive a stipend as well. Do the PhD first & then the MD and you'll need some other source of funding for med school tuition (loans or other).

Do the PhD first and then the MD and you are still going to need to finish the PhD before you'll be allowed to start the MD program.

Med school takes 4 years. It is unrealistic to figure that a PhD will take only 2-3 years (for 6-7 years total).

Your advisor pays your tuition and stipend for medical school and the years you are in the lab. It is in the advisor's best interest to get you in and out in the least amount of time. You are not free labor, you are a mouth to feed who should earn his keep by working toward the degree and advancing the work of the lab.

If maximizing income is your goal, you need to consider how you will finance the MD, get out in 4 years, do a residency & fellowship and start practicing a lucrative subspecialty. You'll be paying back loans or considering the opportunity cost of funds spent on med school tuition that could have been invested in some other venture.

If you want to be a physician-investigator, the fact that some of your M1 classmates will be earning the big bucks (and perhaps paying back loans) while you are just beginning your internship and still earning pennies per hour,will not discourage you from pursuing what you really want to do with your life.

 

[iwutitan]

Thank you for all the helpful advice. I have been doing research all 3 years in college and enjoy everyday of it. I don't think I would be able to live with a career that lacks the aspect of research and looking for new things, improving what exist. Since I am particularly interested in the application of science in medicine and the interactions of doctors-patients, MD PhD is probably the best fit for me. I was just alittle bit cold feet today after talking to that doctor but after considering my interests and revaluating what he said, I think I would stick with the initial plan.... ok thanks again, I am back to my personal statement. 🙂

 

[Shredder]

the free ride is misleading. in the time it takes to get the phd you could be a practicing md and easily recover your tuition with a lot left to spare.

 

[scrappysurfer]

i also agree that with the MD you spoke with. You are totally at the mercy of your phd advisor as to how long it will take. Most phd programs allow up to 6 years to complete this degree. Since your stipend is funded by NIH, you are essentially free labor, and thus the professor will most likely keep you as long as he can. Only after your phd is awarded can you begin your clerkships and then your MD degree

do some more reasearch

NIH pays for 5 years: 4 medicine and 1st graduate year. You are not free labor to your advisor because once you join a lab the lab pays your stipend. You are, however, free to your graduate department for a year because they would cover tuition and stipend for a regular PhD student.

VERY FEW programs claim 6 years. Most of these programs are MD/PhD rather than MSTP (NIH). These programs are funded by the school, by your lab, and by grants. The national average is 7-8 years. The 10 year dual degree students seem to be mostly at Harvard. MSTP program coordinators really lean on your lab to make sure that you get out.

As for MD/PhDs being less respected, it depends on your circle. I had a PhD once tell me that MD/PhDs are real PhDs. Then she sheepishly admitted that she wished she had gone the same route and that PhDs are obligated to make fun of MD/PhDs out of jealosy. In the MD realm, it really depends on how much time the MD/PhD spends in the clinic. If the doc in question spends very little time in clinic then you have a clinician with poor clinical skills.

If you are thinking about MD/PhD for the money, for crying out loud its not worth it. The purpose of funding MD/PhD's is to make a career in medical research (less lucrative than private practice/HMO) financially feasible. For godsakes, leave the MD/PhD slots for someone who actually wants to do research. It really irritated me to meet MD/PhD candidates at interviews who had one summer of research and no idea how the programs were even structured.

 

[gaki]

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/forumdisplay.php?f=32

there is a forum just for ppl wondering about md/phd and such, in case you didnt know. the faq sticky at the top of the forum ( http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=64282 ) has some nice links with more info in it too. one of the links said if you plan on committing like at least 70% of your time to research, md/phd could be good for you.

by the way, if you go into an md/phd, i have a feeling the difficulty finishing, problems with faculty/staff politics and beaurocracy and stuff would definately depend on what your phd half is going to be emphasizing, and what school and who you will be phd-ing under.

i read in some places that its possible to contact an advisors graduate students and ask them what they think of who they are working under. a lot of grad students school contact info can be found on a schools website.

you might also want to look at books about phd programs in general. like i have 'getting what you came for' which is about getting into and surviving a phd program. i thought it was good.

I am just an undergraduate student though, who has looked a little bit into these things myself. so my suggestions might all be crap.

 

[Medinsane]

I have a question. Depending on each school, is it possible to research in medical school and not be a MD/PhD? Because I am interested too in research but my main passion is medicine, so I dont want to do a MD/PhD program.

 

[45408]

the free ride is misleading. in the time it takes to get the phd you could be a practicing md and easily recover your tuition with a lot left to spare.

it's misleading for people who think it is just a free way to go through med school, but it's a huge benefit for people who really want/need both degrees.

 

[EkLiLiaN]

I have a question. Depending on each school, is it possible to research in medical school and not be a MD/PhD? Because I am interested too in research but my main passion is medicine, so I dont want to do a MD/PhD program.

I have asked several schools during sites visits and through e-mails and have been told that you can do research as a medical student. But it is kinda difficult considering the volume of information you will be learning in a short time. But most schools are more than happy to have an MD student work in a lab.

 

[wisteria318]

I have a question. Depending on each school, is it possible to research in medical school and not be a MD/PhD? Because I am interested too in research but my main passion is medicine, so I dont want to do a MD/PhD program.

I am under the impression that is definitely possible to do research in medical school. You can use summers to do research and there are programs at the NIH that allow you to spend a year researching at the NIH (http://www.training.nih.gov/student/index.asp) and I would think most schools will let you do that. Whether or not to get an MD/PhD or do research as an MD really depends on what you are looking for in a research/training experience.

 

[microgin]

I have asked several schools during sites visits and through e-mails and have been told that you can do research as a medical student. But it is kinda difficult considering the volume of information you will be learning in a short time. But most schools are more than happy to have an MD student work in a lab.

Many schools will give you the option of a 5th year of med school during which time you can undertake a research project. I am personally aware of this being the case at U of Chicago, Yale, and UCONN. And if I'm not mistaken, some programs even waive tuition for that year. Plus if you end up going to Yale, you have to complete a research thesis before graduation... it's a requirement in order to be awarded your MD.

 

[Hoberto]

If you are sure you want both MD and PhD degrees it would be foolish to not attempt to get into a combined program. I've definitely heard of more problems in straight PhD programs with people taking 10 years to finish. So, it wouldn't be unrealistic to take 14 years to finsh both degrees by doing them separately. With a combined program even if you spend an extra few years finishing it still won't be as long as doing them separately.

You could get a crappy advisor either way. You could start out w/a great PI who suddenly is up for tenure and then starts working you like mad and demanding papers and all sorts of horrible things. There are all kinds of negative scenarios possible. The nice thing about the federally funded programs is that it is in the best interest of the school to get you out in a reasonable amount of time. NIH wants to fund schools that are turning out good doctors and good PhDs, but in an efficient manner.

As others have said, you'll want to research your PI and talk to his/her grad students. Remember, contrary to popular belief, who you work for is far more important than the field/topic you are in. Even if you have the greatest project on Earth and you are completely fired up about it, if your boss doesn't want you to graduate, you won't.

 

[QofQuimica]

I would also like to weigh in favor of the combined MD/PhD program over doing separate MD and PhD degrees. I am finishing my PhD and applying to medical school now because ten years ago as an undergrad I did not know about combined programs. In hindsight, I would definitely have applied for MSTPs then if I knew what I know now. Not only is there the time and tuition saving, but also the moral support factor. It's definitely a bit demoralizing when you're finishing your PhD, and all your colleagues are getting post-docs and jobs, while you are volunteering in hospitals, studying for the MCAT, and sweating over your AMCAS just like the undergrad pre-meds.

The best advice I can give you about finishing a PhD in a reasonable amount of time is to pick a good mentor. Honestly, the actual research you do as a grad student is infinitely less important than the person who trains you, because your post-graduate training is not likely to involve the exact same research topic anyway. So you need to talk to older students, and look at things like the following:

1) How many PhDs has that advisor graduated?
2) What is the average amt. of time that students spend in his/her lab?
3) Where do his/her students get post-docs and jobs after graduation?
4) This is the most important issue: what kind of management style does this person have, and is it one that you can work with effectively? Ask the current students how they like working with that advisor, but also decide whether you prefer an advisor who is more hands-off versus hands-on. I am definitely a middle-of-the-road kind of person. I like my advisor to be available if I need his help but I don't want him breathing down my neck. On one extreme, there are advisors that are in the lab working with their students (common esp. for new profs), and at the other extreme, there are profs who are usually never around (common for prestigious profs w/ large labs and lots of speaking engagements or administrative duties).

 

[xanthines]

I really hate to keep this thread going but....

Where is everyone getting this 10 years to finish stuff? If you did them separately, maybe it would take 10 (6 for PhD and 4 for MD). The average time to completion for combined degree programs is 8 years at most schools. Some schools like Duke have an average of 7 because their general medical curriculum is already focused on academics. That's a pretty big time savings, in my mind! Like previous posters said, in any research training situation there are many factors that affect how long you will be in the lab.

I know I'm going to get flamed for this, but I think a lot of grad students get a little lazy in the lab. My theory is that after a year or two of classes and seminars and passiing quals, the lab can be like a vacation. You pretty much make your own schedule, your own hours, and other than taking longer to finish your PhD there isn't a whole to force you along. A good mentor will prod you along, but if you picked a hands-off type, well...

Combined degree program students know they have to go BACK to medical school after finishing the grad school phase and THEN they get to go start a residency program. By the time the MD/PhD-ers get back to medical school, the "regular" medical students they started with are already residents, fellows, or even attendings. While depressing, that's a pretty good motivator!

Whenever a program talks about six years, that IS misleading. The number six comes from the NIH MSTP training grant, I believe. That's how many years the grant wil technically fund a student. What typically happens is that the school pays for the MD years, and your advisor/mentor pays for PhD.

Just my 2 cents.

-X

 

[PineappleGirl]

That totally sucks, what if you end up with a bad advisor, or if... he dies

Seriously, this happened to my ex-bf. He's going on year 12 of his PhD. His advisor died then he got a bad one that knows absolutely nothing about his reseach and just seems to enjoy torturing him.

 

[PostalWookie]

I don't know where the 6-7 year thing ame from. 9-10 is not unheard of, but it's certainly not the norm (except maybe at harvard). UPenn claims they get their people out in like 7.5 years, for example, and I think 8 years is what you should expect.

As for doing an MD/PhD program versus the two degrees separately, i'd go with the MD/PhD program. The top programs have really good integration, so that you ideally should be getting more than just the sum of the two degrees.

 

[sunsweet]

This is really a curiosity question about MSTP vs. MD/PhD programs - is one more prestigious than the other? Or is the only difference where the funding comes from? thanks!

 

[jjmack]

From what I have heard MSTP is slighly more prestigious for the CV, but in the end it's really what you do, not the program you went to.

This is really a curiousity question about MSTP vs. MD/PhD programs - is one more prestigious than the other? Or is the only difference where the funding comes from? thanks!

 

[Medinsane]

I am under the impression that is definitely possible to do research in medical school. You can use summers to do research and there are programs at the NIH that allow you to spend a year researching at the NIH (http://www.training.nih.gov/student/index.asp) and I would think most schools will let you do that. Whether or not to get an MD/PhD or do research as an MD really depends on what you are looking for in a research/training experience.

Wow this is awesome. I will definitely look into this and other schools that support research in MD.