MD/PhD or MD

[Arc]

Right now I'm a sophomore in college, and I'm still a bit (actually a lot) undecided of what I want to do in medicine. I was wondering if you have the option of getting a MD only and still being able to pursue a physician scientist career path, or go into residency and take a specialty (i.e surgery) if I change my mind.
Is the application process the same?

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[franniemeow07]

Of course you have the option of doing a physician scientist path, if you get an MD first. It just depends how "much" of one you want to be. To get the full-fledged scientist training, get the PhD afterwards. Although it seems to me this happens rarely, considering you will be carrying a full debt load after MD graduation, and will most likely want to do the residency (and get board certification) so you can actually practice.

To get a "lite" version of scientist training, I believe there are MD/MS programs out there. I don't know much about them, there are people here that know more.

 

[Arc]

Of course you have the option of doing a physician scientist path, if you get an MD first. It just depends how "much" of one you want to be. To get the full-fledged scientist training, get the PhD afterwards. Although it seems to me this happens rarely, considering you will be carrying a full debt load after MD graduation, and will most likely want to do the residency (and get board certification) so you can actually practice.

To get a "lite" version of scientist training, I believe there are MD/MS programs out there. I don't know much about them, there are people here that know more.

So this means I can start research after I get the PhD, or will I have to go through some sort of 'residency' period before I can do research? Right now I just want to keep as many options open as possible.

 

[notlikethat]

So this means I can start research after I get the PhD, or will I have to go through some sort of 'residency' period before I can do research? Right now I just want to keep as many options open as possible.

the PhD in a MD/PhD is a full PhD, you can do what any graduate school graduate does. That said, you wont be able to do any clinical work really without a residency. Also, in most fields you will have considerable trouble finding a research job in an academic without doing a postdoc

 

[Arc]

the PhD in a MD/PhD is a full PhD, you can do what any graduate school graduate does. That said, you wont be able to do any clinical work really without a residency. Also, in most fields you will have considerable trouble finding a research job in an academic without doing a postdoc

But it sounds like if I went the MD/PhD route, I won't have the option of going to residency and becoming a regular doctor, if that is what I want to do. I'm a bit confused.

 

[QofQuimica]

But it sounds like if I went the MD/PhD route, I won't have the option of going to residency and becoming a regular doctor, if that is what I want to do. I'm a bit confused.

No, you would still have that option. It just wouldn't make much sense to do it, because why would you want to spend several years getting a PhD if you know that you want to be a regular doctor?

It sounds to me like you should spend some time shadowing physicians and working in a research lab. Seek out some MDs and some MD/PhDs and spend time with them so that you can get a better idea of what they do. You shouldn't go for an MD/PhD unless you want to do research.

If you want more info about different paths (including MD, MD/MS, and MD/PhD), check out my sticky on Paths to Becoming a Physician Scientist.

 

[AtheGre]

What is everyone's opinion on the potential to go into research, but just with an MD ? I am scared that if I do MD/PhD then I will just be bitter about research and not want to consider it after I go thru residency and such. I keep thinking that if I do MD/PhD then all my MD friends will move on after their 2nd year and I will be alone doing my MD/PhD, isolated. Then I'll just be bitter b/c I'm not getting my MD yet. I've also heard from doctors that MD/PhD makes you neither a good researcher or a good physician. The thing is that I reallly like research and would like to pursue research as a physician. I just don't think I have to waste 5 years of my life to prove to everyone that I like doing research and then just get bitter about it during the process. What do you guys think ? Could I just get an MD and then go into research afterwards ? What are some good programs for that ?

Sorry for being a nubie. Could somebody (or tell me how) move this to the thread with the identical topic: "md/phd or md" thread.

 

[Arc]

Thanks. Just submitted a resume to Livermore lab, and Oakland Childrens Reasarch clinic..so hopefully something comes thorugh.

 

[Coconut45]

A lot of schools have a "research track" where you can do a year of research (usually clinical or basic science) to develop your skill set. There's also the option of taking a year off to do a research year at another location (i.e. NCI, etc.) There's a lot to address in your post, but anything besides what I just told you would be uber subjective and unhelpful. But I can't resist. I guess like anything else, just be as sure as you can that the training you're pursuing is actually what you want. For me, I don't pretend to know that I will be able to run a practice, be an awesome co-PI, have a family...even though right now that's ideally what I would like to do. I do know that I enjoyed my two years of research during undergrad, and would like to spend 4+ years working on a thesis project. It's not a waste if you enjoy it, and if you enjoy it then it will inevitably shape you. Any med student will tell you about people in their class that spent 3 years in a jungle or seven years in Tibet, and everyone's a-buzz about that and all impressed. Most people don't call that a waste, the ADCOM apparently thought it was cool. They chase birds or assimilate to some tribal culture, I tease out the interaction between IgA and Shigella. I think that's pretty cool too.

 

[Neuronix]

But it sounds like if I went the MD/PhD route, I won't have the option of going to residency and becoming a regular doctor, if that is what I want to do.

This statement is confusing to me because I want to clear up what you may have meant by it. Some people think most MD/PhDs don't do residency and don't practice medicine. In reality, that's NOT true. The "goal" of MD/PhD as defined by many out there is 80% research 20% clinical. On the order of 95% of MD/PhDs do a residency. The vast majority will become a board certified physician, including all those years training and practicing as a resident and then continuing.

I'm certain that more than 50% of MD/PhDs end up doing majority clinical, but there's no good data on this (only that some percentage are academic, whatever that means research vs. clinical). So you ALWAYS have that option to go do as much clinical work as you desire--even private practice.

However, you don't want to spend all the extra years training to not use your research training a majority of the time, which is what it's meant for. It doesn't make financial or length of training sense. So my advice is get as much research experience as you can as well as some clinical experience and figure out if the research pathway is really right for you. If you see yourself being mostly an MD, do an MD. If you see yourself being a researcher but wanted to get medical training, then the MD/PhD may be for you.

You can still be a researcher as an MD of course. The main fear among students is that the extra debt burden will preclude you from that pathway, which is definately a huge concern. I also think that once you're done med school and/or part of residency you'll be so bruised and beat up from the system that all you'll want to do is become an attending and make $$$ rather than delay your training and remain a student. But, that option remains available, PhD or not. You can certainly do research without a PhD, but you will still need extensive training to do basic science.

 

[Brunette1981]

I heard this in my interviews too - people have different opinions and faculty tend to be opinionated generally... I wouldn't worry so much. Will you feel left behind when your MD classmates graduate? Yes. Everyone does. But then straight-MD researchers usually do 3-5 year postdocs so they end up spending the same amount of time learning to do research, without getting a degree or a free ride through med school.

You could also do the year-out research method although it can be looked upon as a way to buff up a residency app in derm/neurosurg/plastics/rads rather than as real research training (so I'm biased but 1-year projects are usually finishing touches type of things rather than tear-your-hair-out-in-frustration types of things so maybe not close to real research/real research training...)

Oh, and I wouldn't use the term "just" on your interviews - your interviewers won't like it and as you currently have neither degree, it sounds pompous.

 

[RxnMan]

What is everyone's opinion on the potential to go into research, but just with an MD ?...

This topic has been talked about extensively. After reading the replies here, you should do a search of this forum. Also look at the "Paths to Physician-Scientist" thread at the top of this forum.

...I am scared that if I do MD/PhD then I will just be bitter about research and not want to consider it after I go thru residency and such...

If you feel bitter after doing a PhD, then you would also feel bitter about research after going through MD -> residency. You either like it or you don't.

...I've also heard from doctors that MD/PhD makes you neither a good researcher or a good physician. The thing is that I reallly like research and would like to pursue research as a physician...

You really need to read the "Paths" thread. There are many ways to tailor your practice such that you can do research and retain clinical skills. As with anything, there are trade offs.

...I just don't think I have to waste 5 years of my life to prove to everyone that I like doing research and then just get bitter about it during the process...

Getting a PhD isn't 'proving you like research' - applying for one is statement of one's desire to do research. Getting a PhD requires learning a set of skills that will enable you to research independently. They are two completely different things.

And it wouldn't be a waste of time if you're learning and moving towards a career that you want.

...What do you guys think ? Could I just get an MD and then go into research afterwards ? What are some good programs for that ?

There are many different ways to go about this. You can

- MD/PhD
- MD -> fellowship (with protected research time)
- ABIM Research residency or similar (with protected research time)
- MD w/Research emphasis (part of a 4-yr program)
- MD + year off (as a part of the curriculum or via external program)

But you want to know if you can "go bare" and not do a PhD. That's something you'll have to figure out for yourself. You can read how I came to my decision in the "Paths" thread.

 

[QofQuimica]

What is everyone's opinion on the potential to go into research, but just with an MD ? I am scared that if I do MD/PhD then I will just be bitter about research and not want to consider it after I go thru residency and such. I keep thinking that if I do MD/PhD then all my MD friends will move on after their 2nd year and I will be alone doing my MD/PhD, isolated. Then I'll just be bitter b/c I'm not getting my MD yet. I've also heard from doctors that MD/PhD makes you neither a good researcher or a good physician. The thing is that I reallly like research and would like to pursue research as a physician. I just don't think I have to waste 5 years of my life to prove to everyone that I like doing research and then just get bitter about it during the process. What do you guys think ? Could I just get an MD and then go into research afterwards ? What are some good programs for that ?

Sorry for being a nubie. Could somebody (or tell me how) move this to the thread with the identical topic: "md/phd or md" thread.

Done.

The short answer to your question is that yes, you can do research with just an MD. Check out the Pathways to Becoming a Physician Scientist and the FAQ threads stickied at the top of this forum.