MD/PhD over MSTP?

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happygoluck

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First post...

I'm in a fortunate position where I'm deciding between two programs. I'm looking for things to think about before I make a final decision in the coming months. One is a Top 20 US News (research) MSTP, the other is a strong, up-and-coming non-MSTP MD/PhD that offers full funding + stipend.

I find the location of the MSTP to be less desirable than the MD/PhD for personal reasons (closer to family, feel of the area). With that said, the MSTP is much more established and has a stellar track record backing it up.

Both schools would be an excellent choice and provide ample opportunities regarding the research field that I will go into. Felt both academic environments (students, faculty, leadership) were top-notch.

I guess my question is -- based on this limited information -- what do current or graduated MD/PhD'ers feel I, or anyone else in my position, should think about before making a decision?

Any input would be appreciated.

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it sounds like you would be happier at the non-MSTP one. Clearly you should do that one. Unless of course the stellar track record one is truly stellar- in which case you will come to love the area. Trust yourself, if you are capable of adapting, I'd say take a risk, go to the MSTP one and hope you won't miss your family too terribly much, im sure you are/will be starting a family of your own within the next 8 years, so you gotta see where would be best to do that as well (social places where this would be possible is important as well). Not from personal experience sorry, hope this helps.
 
I think only issue is how established is this MDPhD program, are you going to get into trouble with funding during the 8 years? Ranking doesn't matter too much for med school but I think for PhD it matters where you get it from imo, at least a little bit more, and who your advisor is. If they are great labs with grants and good pubs, then i dont see a problem. I would say go to the MD/PhD if you think you'll be more happy then outside of school... not a student yet. :/
 
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Ranking doesn't matter too much for med school but I think for PhD it matters where you get it from imo, at least a little bit more, and who your advisor is.

I disagree with this in part. The quality of the med school can make a difference in terms of applying to residencies. Although I'm guessing that the OP is deciding between two schools that are good enough for it to not make a huge difference. And in terms of the PhD, I think the school "rank" matters very little if at all. What does matter is the quality of the work you produce during your PhD. If you produce a Cell paper at BFE University, no one is going to care that it happened to be at BFE University, they're going to care that you produced a Cell paper.

To the OP, that's a tough decision. Normally my advice is go for the MSTP. However, my advice is also normally choose the location that you prefer because you're going to be there for the next 7-9 years. If you think you can make a go of it and be happy at the MSTP, then I'd recommend that. But it's a long slog, and you don't want to be somewhere that you'll be miserable for the next almost-decade of your life. I say go to both of the re-visits, and try to get a feel for how both of the programs are run, talk to the students, and ultimately go with your gut.
 
First post...

I'm in a fortunate position where I'm deciding between two programs. I'm looking for things to think about before I make a final decision in the coming months. One is a Top 20 US News (research) MSTP, the other is a strong, up-and-coming non-MSTP MD/PhD that offers full funding + stipend.

I find the location of the MSTP to be less desirable than the MD/PhD for personal reasons (closer to family, feel of the area). With that said, the MSTP is much more established and has a stellar track record backing it up.

Both schools would be an excellent choice and provide ample opportunities regarding the research field that I will go into. Felt both academic environments (students, faculty, leadership) were top-notch.

I guess my question is -- based on this limited information -- what do current or graduated MD/PhD'ers feel I, or anyone else in my position, should think about before making a decision?

Any input would be appreciated.

Congratulations! Make sure the non-MSTP program doesn't have a repayment clause. MSTP programs can't ask you for their money back if you drop out. You never know if you would change your mind about the PhD in the future.
 
I disagree with this in part. The quality of the med school can make a difference in terms of applying to residencies.

This was not my experience going through residency interviews and the match.

If you produce a Cell paper at BFE University, no one is going to care that it happened to be at BFE University, they're going to care that you produced a Cell paper.

and when you apply to residency, nobody will care that you produced a Cell paper.

Nevertheless, I think everyone else brought up the issues I'd be concerned with: funding, program organization, and repayment clauses. From there, it's a personal decision.
 
This was not my experience going through residency interviews and the match.

Really? That's good to know. I guess I (incorrectly) assumed that it could make a difference to top tier residencies if they were comparing candidates with otherwise similar stats who came from a top tier med school vs. a third tier med school. You found this to not be the case?



and when you apply to residency, nobody will care that you produced a Cell paper.

Sorry if I was unclear. I wasn't trying to imply that residencies would care all that much about publication record, but that it does matter when it comes to applying for academic and industry positions.
 
Really? That's good to know. I guess I (incorrectly) assumed that it could make a difference to top tier residencies if they were comparing candidates with otherwise similar stats who came from a top tier med school vs. a third tier med school. You found this to not be the case?


Sorry if I was unclear. I wasn't trying to imply that residencies would care all that much about publication record, but that it does matter when it comes to applying for academic and industry positions.

EVERYTHING matters. Its just that some things matter more to some people than others. It's kind of hard to know when that will be true, and in what circumstance. For Neuronix, it was true having a Cell paper might not have mattered. I've seen other cases where it did matter. Different specialties look at these factors differently. It may also matter where you went to med school (I think it does matter). But it won't mean EVERYTHING. If you come out of an MD/PhD program with good grades and good productivity- you will be fine. It's just your chances for productivity are probably somewhat less than at an MSTP. It may also matter who your advisor is. If they are a famous person, that CAN take you far.
 
What about arguments that one should chose programs where you have more access to clinical chairs during research years in order to get more clinically relevant letters of recommendation from your research years?

Also, is there any effective difference when you are talking about choosing between the top 5 or top 10 programs in terms of rank and their impact on your residency applications? As disclosure, I'm considering not going to Harvard because I think I will be better supported at other schools and because I think research match is better at other schools....and personal happiness...but I don't want the thread to be about that....just differences between top5/10 impact on residency applications.

Also, maybe this should be a new thread?
 
Really? That's good to know. I guess I (incorrectly) assumed that it could make a difference to top tier residencies if they were comparing candidates with otherwise similar stats who came from a top tier med school vs. a third tier med school. You found this to not be the case?

"Otherwise similar stats" are basically based on AOA status and class rank. If you are AOA and have a 270 step 1 score, you will win. If you throw a top-tier MSTP on top of that, you will do even better, but even without the PhD or the top tier med school, you will do extremely well and land a top program. Those two factors matter more than anything else for competitive specialties. And yes, when I look at where I got interviews and where I landed on my rank list, I got beat out extensively by some non-MD/PhDs and some MD/PhDs from not big name schools. My non-MD/PhD classmates all had better class rank and step 1 scores than I did, and matched to big name academic programs where I didn't even get interviews.

If you come out of an MD/PhD program with average class rank and a national average step 1 score, you may not match top a competitive specialty at all. So I disagree with gbwillner's post on that.

Sorry if I was unclear. I wasn't trying to imply that residencies would care all that much about publication record, but that it does matter when it comes to applying for academic and industry positions.

What tends to matter is what you did during residency and fellowship. If you did amazingly well during your PhD it might come back to help you later, but really the major factors are after the PhD program. I thought I had a very strong graduate school record. Sure, I didn't publish in Cell, but I did publish in another big name journal and several other first author papers with my own grant. But residency directors are clinicians and generally don't pay that much attention to your research. The exceptions tend to be in certain fields that don't take as much interest in clinical benchmarks (pathology), aren't that competitive, or are evaluating you for a research track. But even within the research track programs, they are still expecting you to be excellent (read: not average) coming in so they will give you the option to take some time out of your clinical training. They also generally are looking for very few of their residents to be research-oriented so it doesn't pull too many out of their indentured servitude, errr clinics, and this creates even more competition.

justgo said:
What about arguments that one should chose programs where you have more access to clinical chairs during research years in order to get more clinically relevant letters of recommendation from your research years?

I'm not sure what you mean. This seems irrelevant to me. To me what's most important is identifying your residency of interest early, and doing research/establishing connections in THAT field early.
 
Thank you all for taking the time to respond -- gave me plenty to think about. I will definitely ask questions regarding the issues everyone raised as I head into my revisits.
 
With regards to matching into top programs coming from less than stellar MD-PhD programs, I can speak from experience. Our MD/PhD program has graduated the following in the last few years.

Orthopedics, University of Alabama at Birmingham
Radiation Oncology, Johns Hopkins University Medical Center
Pediatrics, University of Virginia Medical Center
Pediatrics, University of California at San Francisco
Internal Medicine (Physician-scientist training program) New York Hospital/Weill Cornell Medical Center
Otolaryngology, University of Washington Medical Center (me)
Internal Medicine, Duke University Medical Center
Internal Medicine, (physician-scientist training program) University of Pittsburgh Medical Center
Radiation Oncology, University of Pittsburgh Medical Center
Pathology, Duke University Medical Center
Radiology, Hospital of the University of Pennsylvania
Neurosurgery, University of California at San Francisco
Neurosurgery, Yale University
Plastic surgery, Stanford University
Internal medicine (physician-scientist program), Vanderbilt University
Pediatrics, Harvard University, Massachusetts General Hospital.
Pnternal medicine, Duke University
Padiology, University of Pennsylvania
Pediatrics, University of Chicago
Neurosurgery, University of California, San Francisco

Also, personally I was an average applicant (230s, 50th percentile, but will an excellent publication record). So I have always been of the opinion that if you get an MD/PhD degree and publish, you will do very well in the match in competitive specialties where research is emphasized.

Good luck...
 
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