MD/PhD program decisions

[TowBow]

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Hi all,

I'm having a hard time deciding between MD/PhD programs. I know that this choice is a very personal one, but I would like the input of others more knowledgeable than me so that I can make a more informed decision.

Program A is a fully-funded MD/PhD program. It is amazing for the research that I am interested in (if it matters, a top 5 school in the graduate rankings) with great faculty and facilities. Also, when I visited, I loved the environment and campus. Everyone I met was so genuinely nice and laid-back, and I felt that this school really showed me a lot of love throughout the admissions process. However, due to the way this program is structured, I would likely be in the program for more than eight years.

Program B is a MSTP. This is my home state's institution, and I haven't been back home in about 7 years and I really miss it. It is good for the research that I am interested in (top 30) and the facilities/resources seem good, but nowhere near as great as that of Program A. Also, every time I talked with admissions from this school, my interactions have always been just short of rude (though it may be only one individual in the admissions office). When I interviewed here, one of my interviewers, who happened to be the head of the department I'm interested in, was out and out rude.

My questions are as follows:

1. What is the inherent value of an MSTP? Is it simply due to the guaranteed funding throughout training or is there something else that MSTP status gives to a program?

2. I want to go to a place where I will be happy for the next eight (or more) years. Am I being stupid for letting rude staff and faculty influence my feelings on a school if it's likely I will have limited interaction with them during the program?

Thanks, guys.

 

[Neuronix]

1. What is the inherent value of an MSTP? Is it simply due to the guaranteed funding throughout training or is there something else that MSTP status gives to a program?

The funding and the oversight mostly. That's about it. There are fully funded MD/PhD programs as well that will guarantee you funding. The only difference is that some MD/PhD programs will expect payback if you drop out of the program, whereas MSTPs aren't allowed to do that. Other than that, I'm not sure how much the oversight from the NIGMS really counts, but at least the NIGMS has certified that the program is up to snuff. That doesn't mean there won't be problems.

2. I want to go to a place where I will be happy for the next eight (or more) years. Am I being stupid for letting rude staff and faculty influence my feelings on a school if it's likely I will have limited interaction with them during the program?

Gut feel is important and this is part of it. I personally wouldn't go to any program where I expect to be there longer than 8 years.

 

[Maebea]

With the average time to degree for MSTP programs pushing past 8.5 years, it seems that spending 9 years at Program A would not be too big a deal. Spending nine years in a place you will probably love with top notch research versus 8 or 9 years in a place you might hate with lesser research? I would go for the love.

 

[Neuronix]

We're past 8.5 years now? Ouch. At this rate in another 20 years we'll be at a decade for an MD/PhD program...

 

[Fencer]

We are as a group trending down from as high as 8.8 years, now it is closer to 8.2-8.4 years nationally.

Regarding the advice about the MD/PhD programs that have not yet received MSTP support, the policy for each program is different. For example, my MD/PhD program abides by the NIGMS recommendations and we do not have a re-payment clause.

 

[TowBow]

Thank you all for your responses.

I personally wouldn't go to any program where I expect to be there longer than 8 years.

I definitely lean towards agreeing with this sentiment. I'm not matriculating right out of school and it's hard to be patient when you feel like you're already behind your peers career-wise. Program B also allows for flexibility in terms of when you can finish the PhD and begin M3, so it's possible that if I really work hard I could feasibly finish in 7 years. This is compared to Program A, where I believe there would be little to no flexibility in the duration of and timing of graduation for the PhD (4-5 years). I know that 2 years may not seem like much, but I have big dreams for what I want to do after finishing all of this training and big dreams take time.

If anyone can chime in with their experiences with the length of programs, red flags you wish you had seen, things you would have done differently, etc. I would much appreciate it.

Regarding the advice about the MSTP status of programs, I don't believe the repayment clause would change anything for me, but it's good to know about the NIGMS recommendations. It was also my understanding that MSTP status correlated to "prestige" of program. Does "prestige" of program then correlate to competitiveness for residency applications?

Program A has been around for a while, but I'm not sure why they are not an MSTP. I get the impression they do not wish to change the structure of the program, which doesn't follow the 2/4/2 pattern, but I don't know if it would be courteous to ask their specific reason.

 

[Datypicalpremed]

The funding and the oversight mostly. That's about it. There are fully funded MD/PhD programs as well that will guarantee you funding. The only difference is that some MD/PhD programs will expect payback if you drop out of the program, whereas MSTPs aren't allowed to do that. Other than that, I'm not sure how much the oversight from the NIGMS really counts, but at least the NIGMS has certified that the program is up to snuff. That doesn't mean there won't be problems.



Gut feel is important and this is part of it. I personally wouldn't go to any program where I expect to be there longer than 8 years.

I'm not sure if things have changed, but the MSTP I am in does expect payback should one drop out (with interest!!).

 

[Ariodant]

MSTP shouldn't be demanding payback. The time to completion is largely dependent on the length of the PhD, which is highly variable even within the same institution. For example, people in my program take anywhere between 3-7 years to finish their PhD, how do you which one will be you when you matriculate?

 

[FalconSlice]

There are some PhD programs that are inherently notorious for holding students (not just MSTPs) too long. Organic synthesis and most other "technical" programs like physics and engineering come to mind. This is just a generalization though...

 

[TowBow]

There are some PhD programs that are inherently notorious for holding students (not just MSTPs) too long. Organic synthesis and most other "technical" programs like physics and engineering come to mind. This is just a generalization though...

Yes, this would be for an engineering PhD. More specifically, mechanical engineering. From speaking with the department and the MD/PhD office, it seemed that nobody finishes the engineering PhD in less than 4 years.

That MSTP asking for repayment with interest (!) sounds brutal... How can that be if they are an MSTP?

 

[Datypicalpremed]

In my school's defense:
1) It is a newer MSTP, so its possible that they are still trying to work out some of the kinks (e.g. payback).
2) They call the payback requirement a "Special Program Fee" (cute, ain't it? )

http://www.umassmed.edu/mdphd/academics/faqs/

The fee isn't that bad, but is still well above the tuition cost for other students (tuition at my school is VERY cheap). In hindsight, its probably this cheap tuition that makes my school the exception...

Regarding the OP's question, the inherent value of MSTP has been discussed before (although a rather long time ago):

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/mstp-md-phd-vs-non-mstp-md-phd.60476/

Personally, I think that non-MSTPs can be very strong programs. You just have to do your own research and see for yourself whether or not they are a good fit for you instead of relying on the NIH's "stamp of approval" (which doesn't exactly mean much in terms of finding a good fit anyways).