MD/PhD program rankings

[cluelesspremed]

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Hey guys...

I was just wondering if there was any ranking of the different md/phd programs...


every school i interview at seems fantastic...how are we supposed to choose one over the other?

thanks a lot guys!

i have specific schools in mind (in tx) if you know anything about em i'd really appreciate if you could PM me...thanks!

 

[Maebea]

Hey guys...

I was just wondering if there was any ranking of the different md/phd programs...


every school i interview at seems fantastic...how are we supposed to choose one over the other?

thanks a lot guys!

i have specific schools in mind (in tx) if you know anything about em i'd really appreciate if you could PM me...thanks!

The frost is on the pumpkins, so it must be time for this annual chestnut to appear. (Big Sigh!) There is no ranking of MD/PhD programs, PERIOD. The only entity that would be competent to do such a ranking (because they have extensive data on all programs that apply for MSTP training grants), the NIH, specifically says that they do not rank programs, either officially or unofficially. Any program that tells you that they have been ranked #1 by the NIH, and there are some that make this claim, is being less than honest with you. (I suppose that one of the programs that makes this claim can be forgiven for doing so; they are so used to being ranked #1 in Men's Division I basketball, that they probably think that they are #1 in everything.)

I appreciate how difficult it is to choose among programs; they are all very good. Choose the program that best fits your needs, regardless of whether it is the UTMB-Galveston, Baylor, or UT-Southwestern. Look at the curriculum (does it fit your learning style?), the faculty (are there several that you would like to work with?), the students (would you fit with the students in the program?), the support (does the program give good support and mentoring to MD-PhD students?),the environment (could you live there for 8 years?), and the location (is it close enough, or far enough away, from family and friends?) Try to figure out which of these factor are most important to you and go with your gut feeling. The fact is, student outcomes for all the federally-funded MD-PhD programs is very similar. Survey results presented at national meetings of MD-PhD programs show that, regardless of program, ~75% of alumni are medical school faculty, usually combining patient care and research. There are slight variations, of course, but similarity of the data among MD-PhD programs is noteworthy. So, if the NIH actually did rank the programs based on student outcomes, there would be 30 or so schools tied for first place.

Bottom line, ignore the opinions of others and follow your instincts. You would not choose a life partner based on how well they scored on "Hot or Not", would you?

 

[cluelesspremed]

The frost is on the pumpkins, so it must be time for this annual chestnut to appear. (Big Sigh!) There is no ranking of MD/PhD programs, PERIOD. The only entity that would be competent to do such a ranking (because they have extensive data on all programs that apply for MSTP training grants), the NIH, specifically says that they do not rank programs, either officially or unofficially. Any program that tells you that they have been ranked #1 by the NIH, and there are some that make this claim, is being less than honest with you. (I suppose that one of the programs that makes this claim can be forgiven for doing so; they are so used to being ranked #1 in Men's Division I basketball, that they probably think that they are #1 in everything.)

I appreciate how difficult it is to choose among programs; they are all very good. Choose the program that best fits your needs, regardless of whether it is the UTMB-Galveston, Baylor, or UT-Southwestern. Look at the curriculum (does it fit your learning style?), the faculty (are there several that you would like to work with?), the students (would you fit with the students in the program?), the support (does the program give good support and mentoring to MD-PhD students?),the environment (could you live there for 8 years?), and the location (is it close enough, or far enough away, from family and friends?) Try to figure out which of these factor are most important to you and go with your gut feeling. The fact is, student outcomes for all the federally-funded MD-PhD programs is very similar. Survey results presented at national meetings of MD-PhD programs show that, regardless of program, ~75% of alumni are medical school faculty, usually combining patient care and research. There are slight variations, of course, but similarity of the data among MD-PhD programs is noteworthy. So, if the NIH actually did rank the programs based on student outcomes, there would be 30 or so schools tied for first place.

Bottom line, ignore the opinions of others and follow your instincts. You would not choose a life partner based on how well they scored on "Hot or Not", would you?

Hey,

Thanks for takin the time to type out all of that advise (honest)...it was VERY helpful! I guess I'm just going to have to do a lot of thinking...

Thanks again!!

 

[freddytn]

The NIH might be in a position to do that kind of study as to which programs have the data on MSTP program. But somehow I still don't think they are the right entity because they will most likely be biased towards MSTPs. Mind you that there are nearly 75 MD-PhD programs that are not funded by the NIH MSTP training grants (only 40 are). Perhaps the best group to carry out such a study is the AAMC (American Association of Medical Colleges) or the National Association of M.D. / Ph.D. Programs which is headed by the directors and administrators of these programs.

 

[ears]

I also appreciate the difficult kinds of choices you face. It is definitely hard. But there is no magic list, because the question you want an answer to is, "Which program is best for me?"

As an MD/PhD finishing his program, here's what I can tell you: look for the programs where the students can give you the most specific examples of how their programs support them and where there are the most research mentors you can picture yourself working with.

And fundamentally, if you're choosing between MD/PhD programs, your instincts are right: you're basically choosing between good options.

Good luck.

 

[peehdee]

can't you generalize and say that if the 'med school' part is ranked high (e.g penn) then the dual program part is also on a high list?

 

[leverp2000]

Not really. The med school ranking doesn't really factor in a lot of the intangibles of good MSTP program, such as advising, integration of the program, avg. graduation times, etc.

can't you generalize and say that if the 'med school' part is ranked high (e.g penn) then the dual program part is also on a high list?

 

[mjs]

Alas, the only way to figure it out is apply to a lot of programs in cities you'd like to live in and keep going until you find a place to call home for the next 6-50 years. No program is enough of a powerhouse to override its quirks, nor is there an awful one.

Also, medical school rankings are a tad scammy. I have heard from a friend in publishing that magazine companies that do school rankings refer to those particular installments as 'the swimsuit issue' because of the enormous sales boost.

In other words, lace your shoes up tightly, be wary of cookie cutter answers, and happy hunting.

 

[Maebea]

Also, medical school rankings are a tad scammy. I have heard from a friend in publishing that magazine companies that do school rankings refer to those particular installments as 'the swimsuit issue' because of the enormous sales boost.QUOTE]

How appropriate: the USNews rankings as softcore porn! The similarities are striking: unnaturally enhanced figures covered with the tiniest amount of flimsy material, promising so much, but delivering so little. Otherwise intelligent people lusting after this chimera, believing in it, wanting it, only to find that it is all an illusion. Meanwhile, some corporation makes a lot of money off these pitiful desires.

 

[Barry Otter]

Also, medical school rankings are a tad scammy. I have heard from a friend in publishing that magazine companies that do school rankings refer to those particular installments as 'the swimsuit issue' because of the enormous sales boost.QUOTE]

How appropriate: the USNews rankings as softcore porn! The similarities are striking: unnaturally enhanced figures covered with the tiniest amount of flimsy material, promising so much, but delivering so little. Otherwise intelligent people lusting after this chimera, believing in it, wanting it, only to find that it is all an illusion. Meanwhile, some corporation makes a lot of money off these pitiful desires.

How dare you degrade softcore porn by likening it to US News rankings!

I prefer softcore to hardcore, but that's for a different thread altogether.

 

[Neuronix]

can't you generalize and say that if the 'med school' part is ranked high (e.g penn) then the dual program part is also on a high list?

I will disagree with the other posters and agree to a certain extent with this statement. There's a reason that if you combine the list of NIH funded MSTPs with the USNews top research medical schools, the NIH funded list is almost indentical with the first 33 schools. Part of it is that total NIH funding of the school and its affiliates are a big part of the ranking. HOWEVER, that's not to mean that the ordering is exactly correct. I don't want to bash on other schools or try to cheerlead for my own school, but some of the "top" research schools have historically poorly put-together MD/PhD programs for various reasons.

So, I'd say it's better than nothing, but to be taken with a large grain of salt.

 

[b&ierstiefel]

Although I don't take what USNews says as gospel, it does publish the only ranking list that I'm aware of. The overall ranking scheme is largely based on variables that can be manipulated by the school (e.g., reporting NIH funding from affiliated hospitals/institutions to make it look like the institution gets awarded more funding; putting increasing emphasis on GPA/MCAT numbers when accepting applicants to make average GPA and MCATs higher, etc.). Michigan is certainly guilty of this. The Dean is hell-bent on making our school a top-5 institution and when the new director of admissions was hired, that motivation was quite apparent. That being said, when I applied to medical schools, I didn't pay all that much attention to the overall ranking of a school. That stuff (i.e., the order) changes all the time although the top 15 schools pretty much stays constant. The overall ranking is largely dependent on stuff that won't affect us students as much. MD/PhD students can only do thesis research in ONE lab and the far majority of students are able to find a good lab where they will be happy and function well regardless of the institution at which they matriculate. The one ranking I looked at very intently was the Residency Director ranking--what do residencies think of the students at a given school. This was a big deal because I wanted to have a competitive edge when applying to residencies and I wanted to be rewarded for the school I attended. I would suggest that one keeps this criterion in mind. However, overall one has to attend an institution where he/she will be HAPPY for the next 7-10 years of his/her life. I can't stress this enough. Rankings are a big deal, IMHO, when one is applying but when one is trudging through the daily struggles and triumphs in an MD/PhD program (the quiz/exam one is cramming for at 2 a.m., the experiment that doesn't work for the 15th time, an unexpected but cool result in the experiment that does work, writing up and defending a thesis, being on call, etc.) the importance placed on rankings gets diluted quite a bit.

 

[cluelesspremed]

Although I don't take what USNews says as gospel, it does publish the only ranking list that I'm aware of. The overall ranking scheme is largely based on variables that can be manipulated by the school (e.g., reporting NIH funding from affiliated hospitals/institutions to make it look like the institution gets awarded more funding; putting increasing emphasis on GPA/MCAT numbers when accepting applicants to make average GPA and MCATs higher, etc.). Michigan is certainly guilty of this. The Dean is hell-bent on making our school a top-5 institution and when the new director of admissions was hired, that motivation was quite apparent. That being said, when I applied to medical schools, I didn't pay all that much attention to the overall ranking of a school. That stuff (i.e., the order) changes all the time although the top 15 schools pretty much stays constant. The overall ranking is largely dependent on stuff that won't affect us students as much. MD/PhD students can only do thesis research in ONE lab and the far majority of students are able to find a good lab where they will be happy and function well regardless of the institution at which they matriculate. The one ranking I looked at very intently was the Residency Director ranking--what do residencies think of the students at a given school. This was a big deal because I wanted to have a competitive edge when applying to residencies and I wanted to be rewarded for the school I attended. I would suggest that one keeps this criterion in mind. However, overall one has to attend an institution where he/she will be HAPPY for the next 7-10 years of his/her life. I can't stress this enough. Rankings are a big deal, IMHO, when one is applying but when one is trudging through the daily struggles and triumphs in an MD/PhD program (the quiz/exam one is cramming for at 2 a.m., the experiment that doesn't work for the 15th time, an unexpected but cool result in the experiment that does work, writing up and defending a thesis, being on call, etc.) the importance placed on rankings gets diluted quite a bit.

Wow this thread has taken off!

So I hear that picking a city one would like to live in, the medical school, etc etc. is something that one should really look into...so can it just be assumed that at most schools that are in cities where you can find yourself happy, that there will be a PI/project that suits your interests?

And how exactly are we supposed to know where we can be "happy"? For me, it's not been a matter of the city (big city ie. Houston or college town ie. where I go to school), but the company I'm around/with...and won't that just depend on the group of students a medical school decides to admit? Because each school I've interviewed at always seems to have really cool students I can see myself meshing well with and others that I wouldn't particularly like...so how do you assess this?

Thanks a million you guys this thread has helped immensely already!

P.S. I searched the NIH website and couldn't find any sort of ranking of which schools it allotted the most/least money to? I was just wondering, could you guys post some of the sites that have these rankings that you're talking about? Thanks!

 

[Mitro]

http://grants1.nih.gov/grants/award/trends/rnk03all1to100.html

This is last year's info. I couldn't find this year's, might not exist yet. I found this particularly useful because you can see where the money goes. For instance, BU is 13th, but almost half of all that money is going to build some crazy underground facility and not to research (at least today's research). Enjoy.

-M

 

[Maebea]

Wow this thread has taken off!

So I hear that picking a city one would like to live in, the medical school, etc etc. is something that one should really look into...so can it just be assumed that at most schools that are in cities where you can find yourself happy, that there will be a PI/project that suits your interests?

And how exactly are we supposed to know where we can be "happy"? For me, it's not been a matter of the city (big city ie. Houston or college town ie. where I go to school), but the company I'm around/with...and won't that just depend on the group of students a medical school decides to admit? Because each school I've interviewed at always seems to have really cool students I can see myself meshing well with and others that I wouldn't particularly like...so how do you assess this?

Thanks a million you guys this thread has helped immensely already!

P.S. I searched the NIH website and couldn't find any sort of ranking of which schools it allotted the most/least money to? I was just wondering, could you guys post some of the sites that have these rankings that you're talking about? Thanks!

If you've found cool students at every place you've interviewed, then you have nothing to worry about. Don't try to differentiate to the nth degree the relative coolness of each student body.

In terms of happiness, I believe that human beings have the capacity to be happy or miserable, regardless of where they are. The situation is what you make of it. If you've convinced yourself that you cannot possibly be happy if you are more than 25 miles from Pepe's pizza in New Haven, then you are fooling yourself. There are actually people from Yale who have gone to schools in Dallas, Philadelphia, Memphis, Birmingham, etc., and most of them are not clinically depressed. If you are a happy person now, you will probably be happy no matter where you go to do the MD-PhD.

While I agree with Andy that you only work with 1 PI for your thesis, you should also look for broad strength in your area of interest. I think that it is important to find a strong community in your field, not just a single star. If your PI is the only show in town, your horizons can be limited to what is available in her lab. If there are several other strong labs in your general area of interest, you can draw on their resources (ideas, reagents, equipment, etc.) to strengthen your training experience. This only works to your advantage, however, if the institution fosters collaboration. If the institution generally has a closed door policy, then it does not matter how many other labs are doing signal transduction or neurobiology or whatever interests you; your scientific community will be just you and your lab.

Here is a link for the 2003 NIH money list for med schools: http://grants2.nih.gov/grants/award/rank/medttl03.htm

Do not obsess over the difference of a 100 million here or there. As an MD-PhD student, you will have the opportunity to work with the best faculty at any institution. The best at school #32 are probably equal in quality to the best at school #8 or school #1; there are just fewer of them at #32. These programs are all good, research-wise, so you cannot really make a mistake there.

Allow me to put a plug in for the importance of mentoring and support of students. I think that this is often overlooked. Someone posted earlier that when interviewing you should ask for specific examples from students you meet of how they have been supported by the program. Most MD-PhD programs do a good job of supporting their students, but some do a less good job of this. While the hope is that you would never need help from the program in dealing with a PI that is jerking you around or would never need to have some rules bent to accommodate a personal crisis, if you do need that sort of assistance, it is good to know that your program will come through for you. The real good programs make this a top priority; they are not there just to tell you which hoops you have to jump through.

 

[b&ierstiefel]

While I agree with Andy that you only work with 1 PI for your thesis, you should also look for broad strength in your area of interest. I think that it is important to find a strong community in your field, not just a single star. If your PI is the only show in town, your horizons can be limited to what is available in her lab. If there are several other strong labs in your general area of interest, you can draw on their resources (ideas, reagents, equipment, etc.) to strengthen your training experience. This only works to your advantage, however, if the institution fosters collaboration. If the institution generally has a closed door policy, then it does not matter how many other labs are doing signal transduction or neurobiology or whatever interests you; your scientific community will be just you and your lab.

I wholeheartedly agree with you Maebea. Although, I learned this later in the game. I think that if an applicant looks at these kind of issues, this displays advanced thinking. Hats off to those people. That's also the nice thing about having something like SDN...applicants and future applicants can be made aware of these kind of issues. 👍

Here is a link for the 2003 NIH money list for med schools: http://grants2.nih.gov/grants/award/rank/medttl03.htm

I hadn't seen this. Thanks Maebea and Mitro for posting it...it was definitely interesting to see. Like Maebea said, this isn't the end all be all when evaluating programs...but I think many people would realize that.

Allow me to put a plug in for the importance of mentoring and support of students. I think that this is often overlooked. Someone posted earlier that when interviewing you should ask for specific examples from students you meet of how they have been supported by the program.

I think this issue is pretty high on my list when evaluating programs...this is one issue which directly affects YOU as the applicant and future MD/PhD fellow. I don't think this is overlooked per se but I think some applicants may not place as much importance on this when applying.

***Warning! Warning! Sales pitch*** When I interviewed at Michigan and a few other places such as WashU, I was very impressed with how helpful the administrative staff was not only to us as applicants but as also to their students. I heard many stories about examples where the MD/PhD staff went out of their way to help out their students and simply make their lives easier. ***End Sales pitch***