MD/PhD Program.

[fmannan93]

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So I am finally graduating high school (yay! 🙂) and I aspire to be a practicing physician and a biomedical researcher. I will be attending the University of Kentucky in the fall as a Biology major, and I plan to begin doing undergraduate research as soon as I can. So I have a question: should I complete an MD and also a PhD in Biomedical Engineering in order to practice and research, or can I just do an MD.

Also, probably more important, how realistic is it for me to do research and practice at the same time?

 

[link2swim06]

So I am finally graduating high school (yay! 🙂) and I aspire to be a practicing physician and a biomedical researcher. I will be attending the University of Kentucky in the fall as a Biology major, and I plan to begin doing undergraduate research as soon as I can. So I have a question: should I complete an MD and also a PhD in Biomedical Engineering in order to practice and research, or can I just do an MD.

Also, probably more important, how realistic is it for me to do research and practice at the same time?

Ok so here is the run down:

There are two routes which let you do research and practice:

1. Just a MD

This involves:
4 years of undergrad
4 years of med school
3-6 years of residency


2. A MD/PhD (this is a combined program you apply to....it is a total of 6 years)

This involves:
4 years of undergrad
2 years of med school
2 years to complete PhD work
2 years of med school
3-6 years of residency


Both allow you to practice and do research. But if you are dead-set on making research a big part of your career then the MD/PhD will open more opportunities.

*I dont know of any engineering PhD/MD programs, but they may exist.

Bottom-line: get in a lab and figure out if you really like research.

Also I know several MD/PhDs that both research and practice.

P.S. MD/PhD programs are much harder than just MD programs to get into, so make sure you have a stellar undergrad GPA if you are serious.

 

[Long Way to Go]

If only you only needed two years to complete PhD work 🙂 It's more like three to five to the best of my knowledge, with most people landing on the "4 to 5" end of things.

 

[link2swim06]

If only you only needed two years to complete PhD work 🙂 It's more like three to five to the best of my knowledge, with most people landing on the "4 to 5" end of things.

Depends on the program, I personally know people that have completed the whole thing in 6 years. Its going to be dependent on where and what you do.

Realize that many of the classes you take as an MD will overlap with stuff learned by PhD, hence why the PhD part of the dual degree is shorter than by itself.

Yes it could take up to 10 years for it all, but I don't agree with the PhD part averaging 4-5 years in the dual degree. From what I have read its closer to 2-4 years.

 

[K31]

There are lots of physicians who both practice and run a full-time lab. Most of those who are successful spend most of their time in the lab and not much in the clinic--it takes a lot more of an ongoing time committment to be a successful scientist than it does to be a successful physician.

You are fortunate in that you will be attending a school with both a medical school and graduate school. You would be best served by finding the lab of a successful physician-scientist to work in. Not only is this likely to get you a good recommendation (a letter from a physician-scientist pulls a lot of weight in MD/PhD admissions), but it will also give you a chance to see what a physician-scientist does and determine if it would be something you want to do. My undergrad didn't have a medical school, but I worked as a lab tech after graduation and the chance to observe what my boss (MD only, but an RO1-funded basic scientist) did on a day-to-day basis cemented my decision to apply to MD/PhD programs.

Engineering programs--not my area, but there are a number of MD/PhD programs that let their students get a PhD in bioengineering. Best to search in the MD/PhD forum for a list of programs.

 

[K31]

Yes it could take up to 10 years for it all, but I don't agree with the PhD part averaging 4-5 years in the dual degree. From what I have read its closer to 2-4 years.

Time to degree nationally in NIH-funded MD/PhD programs hovers around 8 years. In my year, there are a couple (out of an entering class of 12) who will get out in 7 years; most of us will be 8 (1 or 2 may be 9). That's 3.5 years at the shortest for a PhD.

The limiting factor isn't time in classes. The fact is it is very difficult to get a significant body of research in 2 years. There is the occasional superstar who can do it, but it is rare. Most of the time, if you complete an MD/PhD program in 6 years total people are going to wonder whether your thesis is as complete as a usual PhD.

There are some programs (usually without NIH funding, which is considered a mark of quality in MD/PhD programs) that promise to graduate their students in less than 7 years, but in my opinion they are doing their students a disservice.

 

[physicsnerd42]

Ok so here is the run down:



2. A MD/PhD (this is a combined program you apply to....it is a total of 6 years)

This involves:
4 years of undergrad
2 years of med school
2 years to complete PhD work
2 years of med school
3-6 years of residency


Both allow you to practice and do research. But if you are dead-set on making research a big part of your career then the MD/PhD will open more opportunities.

*I dont know of any engineering PhD/MD programs, but they may exist.

Bottom-line: get in a lab and figure out if you really like research.

Also I know several MD/PhDs that both research and practice.

P.S. MD/PhD programs are much harder than just MD programs to get into, so make sure you have a stellar undergrad GPA if you are serious.

I'm doing an engineering MD/PhD at the moment (one year from defending my PhD thesis and then two more years of med school + residency). Much more typical is 8 years (what it will take me) than 6. Honestly, I can't imagine doing a PhD in two years. You can, however, definitely do a MD/PhD with engineering at a good number of schools.

I'm five years in and have no regrets. I think that many people make the mistake of believing that life stops in grad school. It doesn't. You don't put your life on hold to do the MD/PhD (or the MD) and so the time you spend doing whatever program is not as big of a factor as you may think now.

 

[D elegans]

Another nice thing about the NIH funded MD/PhD programs (which I think are collectively called the Medical Scientist Training Program, or MSTP) is that your tuition is waived and you are given a graduate student's stipend for the duration of the program. Not a good reason to go into an MSTP but it's certainly a perk; no debt!

Also, to your original post, I think (and MD/PhDers correct me if I'm wrong) in general MD/PhDs split their time about 80/20 research/clinical. Obviously that's a generalization but I've heard that from a few sources.

Best of luck to your future endeavors! My advice is to get involved in research as soon as you can as an undergraduate; don't be shy! 🙂

 

[fmannan93]

Thanks sooo much for all of the advice guys!

My father, who is a practicing physician, says that I could get good research opportunities while I'm doing a fellowship, and that is without getting the PhD.

Is that sufficient for getting a career that is... say, 65/35 clinic/research based? Or is completing the MD/PhD a better idea?

 

[physicsnerd42]

Thanks sooo much for all of the advice guys!

My father, who is a practicing physician, says that I could get good research opportunities while I'm doing a fellowship, and that is without getting the PhD.

Is that sufficient for getting a career that is... say, 65/35 clinic/research based? Or is completing the MD/PhD a better idea?

Many fellowships REQUIRE you to do research.

If you want a research/clinical career, I think it depends on what kind of research. If you're interested in doing clinical research, the fellowship training could be sufficient. If you want to do outcomes research, you probably need a MPH or MS.

If you want to do bench research, however, the research you do during fellowship will probably be insufficient unless you do a dedicated research fellowship (for 3 or 4 years, which is like a PhD). You just can't learn how to be an effective bench researcher (in my opinion) in a one year research experience sandwiched in the middle of your fellowship. You also really can't develop the resume you'll need to successfully compete for grant funding in the currently atrocious funding environment.

Doing these research fellowships used to be easier in the past for one reason: money. Med school is SIGNIFICANTLY more expensive now than when you're dad went to med school. When you do more research, you typically get paid less money. In the past, when doctors had little debt, that wasn't an issue. Now, it can be hard to justify doing a research fellowship and doing significant research during attending years if you have a huge amount of debt and are signing yourself up for a lower paying job.

 

[Lil Mick]

If you're thinking of doing the PhD in engineering, an MD/PhD program is probably the way to go. By the way, the overlapping classes usually only apply to PhD programs in biology, and not all schools waive classes for you because you learned the material in medical school (very different focuses for some of the courses).

It's also possible to get a grant to cover research expenses in graduate school (that pay more than your stipend would). Several people at my school are on the 10-12-year-plan, as they have great funding and are getting some good publications in their fields (which is recommended so that your work can carry you through MS3-4 and the first year or so of your residency, when getting publications and working on research will be more difficult).