MD/PhD programs with "non traditional" PhDs?

[jash0624]

I was wondering which of the MD/PhD programs allows you to get a PhD in something that's not biology-related--specifically math. That's the only thing I'd ever want to get a PhD in, preferably through a program, but I don't mind going BACK to school after my MD to get it if there's no other option.

I've been looking at a lot of schools, and so far, I've only noticed Dartmouth that has it and I've never been thrilled with their math dept.

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[OncDoc19]

I was wondering which of the MD/PhD programs allows you to get a PhD in something that's not biology-related--specifically math. That's the only thing I'd ever want to get a PhD in, preferably through a program, but I don't mind going BACK to school after my MD to get it if there's no other option.

I've been looking at a lot of schools, and so far, I've only noticed Dartmouth that has it and I've never been thrilled with their math dept.

I don't know specifically about math but I am applying for a non-trad MD/PhD in history of science and medicine. Here is the list of schools I applied to:
Harvard
Yale
University of Pennsylvania
Emory
Johns Hopkins
University of Iowa
University of Illinois
University of Michigan
University of Wisconsin
University of Chicago
Washington University
UCLA - I know they have a biomathematics dept so this might be good
UCSF

So far I have received 7 interviews, 3 rejections and am still waiting to hear from 3 schools. This list might be a good place to start. The key to everything is to have a good rationale for your PhD. Other than that just start calling around to schools (the MSTP) and ask. Most of the places I applied to do not advertise on their website that a non-trad PhD is possible.

 

[jash0624]

I don't know specifically about math but I am applying for a non-trad MD/PhD in history of science and medicine. Here is the list of schools I applied to:
Harvard
Yale
University of Pennsylvania
Emory
Johns Hopkins
University of Iowa
University of Illinois
University of Michigan
University of Wisconsin
University of Chicago
Washington University
UCLA - I know they have a biomathematics dept so this might be good
UCSF

So far I have received 7 interviews, 3 rejections and am still waiting to hear from 3 schools. This list might be a good place to start. The key to everything is to have a good rationale for your PhD. Other than that just start calling around to schools (the MSTP) and ask. Most of the places I applied to do not advertise on their website that a non-trad PhD is possible.

Thanks, thats really helpful! I'm starting to think it might be best just to do them separately because I think my chances of getting into a good grad school are way way better than my chances of getting into a good med school. Yay for 10 more years of school!

 

[mudphudwannabe]

I think it's possible, but I think you should also consider that you could do the type of research you want to do in a graduate program outside of math. I am doing mathematical/computational biology work for my PhD at the University of Wisconsin. My advisor's main appointment is in the math dept, and I have an office in the math dept, but my graduate program is biophysics. My undergrad degree was in math and biochem.

The reason I'm encouraging you to consider doing a PhD outside of math is this: the mathematics graduate program has a ton of required coursework, plus very intense qualifying exams, plus heavy teaching requirements, etc. I could be wrong, but I suspect these types of requirements are not limited to UW's math program. The math graduate students are very busy with all these obligations, and they barely have time to do research. That is why you hear about math graduate students taking 6-7-8+ years to finish. Biophysics, on the other hand, has very few requirements. I only have 3 required classes, which I will have out of the way this semester (first semester of grad school), so I am free to take whatever I want (within reason). I'm looking at taking some classes in math, stats, and computer science. If you are driven to get both the MD and PhD, I highly recommend at least trying for MD/PhD programs rather than doing them separately. After doing a math PhD, you may lose steam and not want to continue on to the MD...which raises another question, is the MD really necessary for you? How do you see yourself using it?

Anyway, I hope this helped a little. Feel free to message me or reply here -- I'm happy to give whatever guidance I can, especially for a mathematically oriented comrade!

 

[hardy]

I think it's possible, but I think you should also consider that you could do the type of research you want to do in a graduate program outside of math.

Agreed... I was set on math as my grad department but after seeing what it all entails (coursework, TA requirements, funding difficulties) I changed my mind. Our engineering department offers the flexibility I need as an MD/PhD student while allowing me to take the classes I am interested in. Really, the grad department is not that important anyway. Yes, it's cool to do a PhD in math but in reality it's all about your advisor and project. You can get a faculty position in a math department even if your PhD is in a related field.

And while applying I noticed that being interested in a math PhD is an incredibly tough sale since the people deciding over your admission know little to absolutely nothing about math.

 

[mudphudwannabe]

Honestly, on the interview circuit, I can't recall being asked what graduate program/department I would want to get my PhD in. If you go around advertising that you're interested in math and only want to get a math PhD, that might turn some people off because they might wonder how committed you are to the MD and to biological science (if they don't dig a little deeper), but if you say you are interested in mathematical biology or computational biology...that kind of research is pretty en vogue right now, and I think it would be a point in your favor if anything. You should rehearse how you will explain your math interests to someone who is math-phobic, though, since there are plenty of those people out there. You need to do it in a way that affirms how you envision yourself contributing to biomedical science overall but also doesn't insult them.

 

[mdphd2b]

I don't know specifically about math but I am applying for a non-trad MD/PhD in history of science and medicine. Here is the list of schools I applied to:
Harvard
Yale
University of Pennsylvania
Emory
Johns Hopkins
University of Iowa
University of Illinois
University of Michigan
University of Wisconsin
University of Chicago
Washington University
UCLA - I know they have a biomathematics dept so this might be good
UCSF

So far I have received 7 interviews, 3 rejections and am still waiting to hear from 3 schools. This list might be a good place to start. The key to everything is to have a good rationale for your PhD. Other than that just start calling around to schools (the MSTP) and ask. Most of the places I applied to do not advertise on their website that a non-trad PhD is possible.

Hi there,

Now that I'm finally interviewing for residency, I just wanted to add a plug for my school. Univ of Pittsburgh's MSTP allows you to do your PhD at either Pitt or Carnegie-Mellon--we have had a few non-trad's in Physics, ethics, epidemiology, social decision sciences, lots of engineers...Good luck

 

[Neuronix]

I could be wrong, but I suspect these types of requirements are not limited to UW's math program.

I don't know about math specifically, but this logic is exactly right. The PhD programs that are not in the Biomedical sciences often are not as well funded, have far more requirements, and make no concessions for MD/PhDs. Why would your MD/PhD program let you do a grduate program where the average time to PhD is 7 years? That sounds extreme, but I believe that's the average for the Anthropology department here for example. Every year I have to answer several times why the Anthropology PhD is not allowed, and that is the reason. It's not necessarily a bias against non-science PhDs (at some programs it is), but it's in your best interest. To do that PhD would more or less guarantee a 10-11 year MD/PhD program, which is ridiculous.